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JKD UnderGround >> Important Question?


3/27/10 10:05 AM
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Joe Maffei
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This forum is graced with such a divers group with the likes of Scott, Adam, Matt, Burton, and a host of very smart people, from Pink belt to Black belts

Why do you think the activity on this forum is so lamb? Any question will get an answer, it might not be the answer you want, but I bet it will invite a high quality of thought…:)

So why do you think this forum lacks luster?
3/27/10 11:55 AM
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Paul Hopkins
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The forum is not lame. Why does it have to be so serious?
 
I don't think every tom, dick and harry with an internet connection should necessarily have access to all the tips, techniques and training methods of the SEAL, SERE, Inayan, Pekiti Tersia, 52 Blocks and other systems that might give anonymous folks of dubious intent, ulterior motive, or hidden agenda some romantic relationship with violence.

Knowing that there are unethical people teaching and training should lead to some counterintelligence work among those of you who are handing out knife and firearm knowlege.

Plenty of local training requires Federal, or at least State, background checks. There are sexual predators and all species of low lifes walking the streets in suit and tie.

For me the forum is fine and could use a bit more subterfuge and a lot less idol worship. When I get the word from reputable sources that we are "learning" from gun runners, crack heads, date rapists and thieves it doesn't surprise me that business is slow.

just kidding

 

3/27/10 11:55 AM
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Paul Hopkins
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3/29/10 10:54 AM
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Joe Maffei
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Paul IMHO it is lamb, very little activity compared to other forums.
I'm not saying it has to be serious, what I am saying is having fun at another persons expense is just not cool that's all.
I would like to hear what some of the other moderators think?

Funny clip btw...?
3/29/10 7:21 PM
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FatBuddha
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1. Lurkers: people who never post or respond no matter how interesting a thread is or how much time the person who created the thread spent putting down good information

2. The departure of Matt Thorton and SBGI guys...support him or not, it was a cause of debate which always stirs up discussion

3. The decline in popularity of the JKD lineage based partially on those that carry the flag not competing in MMA, fighting in challenge matches, etc. You can be absorbed in theory but if you don't continually prove your theory, sooner or later people stop paying attention.

4. The popularity of MMA and the fallacy of the belief that if its not in MMA at this present moment, then it must not work in combat

5. The diffusion of posts due to other forums (kali, bjj, ug) etc. that people would post a jkd related topic on

6. The increasingly popular fallacy that self-defense training is not relevant in today's world

just some ideas!
3/29/10 7:21 PM
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FatBuddha
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1. Lurkers: people who never post or respond no matter how interesting a thread is or how much time the person who created the thread spent putting down good information

2. The departure of Matt Thorton and SBGI guys...support him or not, it was a cause of debate which always stirs up discussion

3. The decline in popularity of the JKD lineage based partially on those that carry the flag not competing in MMA, fighting in challenge matches, etc. You can be absorbed in theory but if you don't continually prove your theory, sooner or later people stop paying attention.

4. The popularity of MMA and the fallacy of the belief that if its not in MMA at this present moment, then it must not work in combat

5. The diffusion of posts due to other forums (kali, bjj, ug) etc. that people would post a jkd related topic on

6. The increasingly popular fallacy that self-defense training is not relevant in today's world

just some ideas!
3/30/10 12:16 AM
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newbieguy
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Hi all just to put my .02 in I love this forum and have watched most of demi barbito, joe maffei, paul vunak, tapes and think the material is great and always am reviewing and putting it to use in training.

Interesting point about mma a few days ago I went to one webcast about pitting an mma fighter vs. a veteran streetfighter and the veteran streetfighter got about 57% of the vote in a poll as to who would win a streetfight. Granted the person was trying to sell his product "mma for the street" or cagefighting unleashed I cant remember but to come back to the topic there really is nothing new as compared to mma.

I also teach defensive tactics for the deparment that I work for and at every opportunity I show either demi, joe, or paul vunak and the people in class are riveted to the screen and wonder why we cant just learn that it is so much simpler and easy to use.

Many people as stated in earlier posts think if it is not work in mma then it is no good. When I tell them in an mma fight a lot of jkd's arsenal is illegal in a sanctioned mma fight they just assume that it is like tae kwon do or some other form which is not effective in mma I mean look at what Machida did for shotokan karate. Oh well my post is getting a little long, take care all.
3/30/10 12:27 AM
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Calbert
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I 100% agree with all of FatBuddha's points.
3/30/10 9:56 AM
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WidespreadPanic
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 Points 4 of Fatbuddha post is an over simplification.

The way to analyze is by fight 'venue'. Is it standing start SD like in a bar, is it a 'skirmish' or ambush, is it a 'duel' as in 'squaring off with someone', is it a melee (mass combat) or is it 'war' - i.e. armed combat or combat to the death. Also is the fight reffed (even if informally by people standing around), or is it to the knock down, or is it to the KO?

They're all a bit different.

I think BL was good at 'standing start' SD. He used his speed and ability to 'amp up' and could beat nearly anyone to the punch. But not being 'durable', (smaller, suspect chin) he would not be as good in a skirmish or ambush, or in a match, like boxing (partly because he didn't spar like boxers do).

Similarly, BJJ is good in a 'duel' like a beach fight, but not so good in mass combat or 'war' (though a couple people have told stories about using it in multiple combat). However, having said this, I do think BJJ training (grappling) is good -training- for war - it's conditioning, and there might be times when you get taken down and need to know how to escape - (but then you should stand up, make space and shoot the opponent, not use an armbar, lol).

As to the 'fallacy' that SD training is not relevant, imo, SD 'gurus' are teaching the wrong thing. Trying to use 'lethal' methods, trying to teach people to fight with knives, implying there are 'tricks' you can learn to beat bigger people, making women feel they can 'fight' their way out of a one-on-one (like a boyfriend slapping them around) - there's the fallacy.

$0.02



3/30/10 10:11 AM
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WidespreadPanic
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Real urban SD should consist primaily of learning:

1. The laws in your area, how to contact an attorney, how to talk to the cops, when to stay at the scene;
2. How to de-escalate, defuse and to practice doing that - learning to be in a confrontation and keep your heartbeat steady. How to 'self-talk';
3. How to not be in dangerous situations;
4. How to listen to your inner voice/fear alert and leave an area;
5. How to walk down the street safely (i.e. avoid blind corners);
6. Preventative measures, such as locking driver's side door;
7. How to drive defensive - take a driving course on how to use the car as a weapon;
8. Combat pistol craft;
9. Like Demi Barbito does - actually running a course and learning to use your pepper spray - not just buying it and throwing it in your car or women in their purse and not practicing;
10. Figure out ways to train it 'alive' and not do some 'grab my wrist' stuff;
11. Actually show how to do effective rape defense (using BJJ);
12. Talking about how you need to functionalize your moves - not just a collection of tricks;
13. Talking about creating a 'delivery system';
14. Talking about the ranges of combat - and how to move to the grappling range;
15. Avoiding using a poor example of, say an improper takedown, and claiming there are anti-grappling moves;
16. Avoiding using JJJ type moves;

...and so on.

$0.02

3/30/10 12:06 PM
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erathdj
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Edited: 03/30/10 12:07 PM
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Wow, I can't believe all of you guys are still at this...I thought this forum disappeared in the early 2000's! Very cool that it's still around, and I recognize all of your names.

Joe, maybe if you start more controversial threads like the "Sombrada, Hubud, What's Up?" one you guys will have more people posting. So Matt is no longer around pushing aliveness? And why does this show I've only got 42 posts...surely I used to post more than that...
3/30/10 2:39 PM
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Calbert
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Edited: 03/30/10 2:42 PM
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WidespreadPanic,

Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you are saying so please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think what you are describing is contrary to Fatbuddha's point in #4. I agree, and I think he would agree, with what you are explaining regarding the value of a given methodology being dependent on what type of situation or venue you are describing. However, I think what Fatbuddha is saying is that there are many people on these subforums that think that if you don't see it in an mma match then it's not worth practicing, discussing, etc. no matter the venue. I think these guys are the ones that don't consider the venue when analyzing a fight and therefore not much discussion is had on anything that doesn't fit into the mma category.

C.J.
3/30/10 2:46 PM
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FatBuddha
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WidespreadPanic - See post above

Also, I'm a bit confused what your argument is. You mention "implying there are tricks you can use to defeat bigger people" as a negative or falacious statement. Isn't that practically a definition of the term "Marital Art"?
3/30/10 2:46 PM
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FatBuddha
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WidespreadPanic - See post above

Also, I'm a bit confused what your argument is. You mention "implying there are tricks you can use to defeat bigger people" as a negative or falacious statement. Isn't that practically a definition of the term "Marital Art"?
3/30/10 2:47 PM
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FatBuddha
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didn't mean to double post - meant see Calbert's post above
3/30/10 2:47 PM
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FatBuddha
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didn't mean to double post - meant see Calbert's post above
3/30/10 4:12 PM
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Adam Singer
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I stopped posting because I derived no pleasure from it any longer.

Adam Singer
3/30/10 11:54 PM
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WidespreadPanic
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Edited: 03/30/10 11:55 PM
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 FatBuddha - no, martial arts is no longer able to be defined by a 'collection of tricks'. You can take someone and have them read every martial book on the planet, train every martial art move in a static form (i.e. walking through one-step sparring) and then when you turn them loose on a guy with a delivery system and an alive art like judo, bjj, MT, wrestling or boxing - and other attributes being more-or-less equal and it will be no match.

I've actually sparred with quite a number of people who were bigger than me, stronger than me but tried to learn MA from books or on their own and they were ridiculously easy to spar. I even sparred with a 3rd degree Shotokan guy who was a complete joke - though his kata was awe-inspiring.

You must fight/sparr in an alive manner with actual resistance and unrehearsed progressive resistance.

Now, it's true that some relatively rare individuals are just tough mofos and have innate skills (maybe they played a combat sport like rugby in their youth?). But they could take some wimpy form of MA from a book and still be a good fighter - but it wouldn't be due to their current TMA-style training.
------------------

Edit to add: It's like Matt Thornton said - take a chess player - teach him every opening book move there is but if he doesn't ever play matches against opponents better than them they'll never be a good chess player.


 
3/31/10 10:13 PM
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Joe Maffei
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good start, any of the other mod's out here?
4/1/10 10:49 AM
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Kai Tremeche
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Adam Singer - I stopped posting because I derived no pleasure from it any longer.

Adam Singer


4/1/10 11:18 AM
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erathdj
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I think FatBuddha is making some great points. I've got to imagine that MMA is taking up a bigger piece of the interest pie than it did years ago, and no doubt people growing up these days are so used to MMA that they likely think if they don't see it in MMA it's not valid. And since this is mixedmartialarts.com, I bet more people that find this site were looking for MMA in the first place, not JKD.

Search in Google for "JKD forum". This forum is not in the top 10, and very few people go beyond the first page. I'd even wager that most people that come across this forum via search don't even know what JKD stands for...therefore they probably never see this forum and/or are not interested.
4/1/10 2:25 PM
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WidespreadPanic
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 Another thing to consider is that even though people may not realize the big difference between a traditional TMA and MMA or a base art, they are now getting more into those things - boxing, wrestling, bjj, judo, etc. because they can see them as entry arts into MMA. (Yes there are pure MMA clubs also).

But my point is - there's a little less interest in 'flash' and 'being Chinese', or being a ninja - in fact look at the movies - there are a ton of parody Kung-Fu, TKD and other types, Napoleon Dynamite, Kung-fu Hustle, Kung Pow, the one about the TKD guy (forget the name).

I've no doubt that there are still a preponderance of TKD/Kung-fu students who are into doing tournaments and weapons and flash, but since kids can actually do BJJ (and Judo), a lot of them who are interested more in the athletics and function and sports go there instead of learning showy kata and static routines.

At the same time, though they might be doing it badly, a lot of traditional schools are trying to add a grappling element, bring in guest instructors, add realistic training equipment and mat and ring space. So they're moving towards a more MMA-styled approach.

Here we know that MA does not consist of 'hidden secret moves' or strange energies. That doesn't mean there aren't complexities and details to learn but they're more out in the open.

Finally, if you look in TMA clubs they often only have one or two guys who can fight or even go to tournaments - in other MMA and base arts, everyone can 'spar' and they know their ability. It's not a question of asking some master - 'what was it like to fight?' or 'will my "kung-fu" work in the street'. You know.

$0.02
4/1/10 2:47 PM
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Kai Tremeche
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WidespreadPanic -  
But my point is - there's a little less interest in 'flash' and 'being Chinese', or being a ninja - in fact look at the movies - there are a ton of parody Kung-Fu, TKD and other types, Napoleon Dynamite, Kung-fu Hustle, Kung Pow, the one about the TKD guy (forget the name).


This is possibly the happiest development. I hate to be a gushing fanboy, but I felt after UFC 3, (I saw UFC 2 first) I felt that I was freed from a cultish dogma.

I used to believe in Ninjas, that Old Men could be unbeatable fighters... And worst of all: That my years of wrestling training were absolutely worthless in a fight.
4/2/10 9:59 AM
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Joe Maffei
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My .02 To start,
I agree with FatBuddha but I think that # 3 is a strong case. Some of the earlier statesman of JKD with their personal agenda has left a very bad taste three generations ago and has not been forgiven and with the new breed of MMA folk, JKD is old school stuff, and too many,.... not very practical stuff at that.

So I think it is not JKD, but the so called teachers of JKD that are "responsible" for the decline of activity. They should take the blame and not point the finger at MMA. If the business down the street is doing better then you, you need to change your business plan.
4/2/10 11:12 AM
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WidespreadPanic
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Edited: 04/02/10 11:24 AM
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Joe, IMO, the biggest problem with JKD is all the 'hidden stuff'. Remember BL made Dan promise not to teach the double pak sao. And Jesse Glover and James DeMile left after they discovered that BL was not teaching the same things he taught them to the new group.

The second thing is failing to realize why JKD was BL's personal style - it was based on his unique speed and ability to read an opponent's intent. Only a couple of his student's students got that. Alfonso Tamez was the only one who equalled his attributes.

Yes, the early statesmen of JKD are letting out more stuff, but they're not really talking about the training - just the 'sequences' - one-steps. Only Jess Glover talks about that - (endless repetitions).

They don't have a delivery system and don't talk about the venues of fighting and have not really progressed beyond what BL taught. Dan just added on FMA to try to make up for this - is anyone in JKD an innovator (maybe Vunak).

For those that don't know Tamez he was one of the first KK instructors in the US, also.


  

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