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JKD UnderGround >> Important Question?


4/2/10 11:12 AM
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erathdj
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Edited: 04/02/10 11:13 AM
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<blockquote>Joe Maffei - They should take the blame and not point the finger at MMA. If the business down the street is doing better then you, you need to change your business plan.</blockquote>

That's an excellent point Joe.

As far as this forum in particular goes though, I also think visitor intent is a very big factor.
4/2/10 1:56 PM
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Kai Tremeche
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I am so glad that no one can look at that cover now and not laugh their ass off.

'Why death touch works!'

Wow, it's like looking back at 'Spontaneous generation' for the origin of maggots.
4/2/10 2:23 PM
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WidespreadPanic
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Kai Tremeche -
I am so glad that no one can look at that cover now and not laugh their ass off.

'Why death touch works!'
People suspend their critical belief systems when looking at MA - note that you can shock someone with a stun gun multiple times and they still recover. So what is the tiny field of a human going to do - except for the 'voodoo effect' (belief in something causing an effect).

We've all done it. For example look at 'Ninjas'. How do they fight? Do they engage and attack? No, they run and hide when encountering an opponent. Yet all these 'ninja fighting techniques' show up in magazines.
 
4/2/10 3:05 PM
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Kai Tremeche
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WSP: Well in my defense, I was like 16 when I thought that shit.
4/3/10 4:39 AM
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WidespreadPanic
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Kai Tremeche - WSP: Well in my defense, I was like 16 when I thought that shit.
Dayum, homie, I was learning nunchucks and dressing like Bruce Lee when I was in my 20s. In my defense, it was in the 70s. (Never did buy the ninja thing, though, lol)

 
4/3/10 11:53 AM
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Kai Tremeche
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WSP: That's awesome.

I was 17 when I caught my first UFC (UFC 2 on PPV), it still took me until UFC 5 to finally put all my fake martial arts perceptions to bed.
4/4/10 8:27 AM
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Joe Maffei
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i was @ UFC 1 and had my first fighter in UFC 7...WOW I am old...:(
4/4/10 10:46 AM
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Kai Tremeche
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Edited: 04/04/10 10:46 AM
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Joe: What was your honest first thoughts on it when you saw UFC 1?

You trained David Hood?
4/4/10 1:35 PM
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Joe Maffei
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Edited: 04/04/10 1:36 PM
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Yes Dave was and still is my student. He is a deputy commitioner on the mass Boxing commition now, so I get questions on a regular basis.

As far as UFC goes?
Well I was sitting with Rickson the first time I heard of this fight called UFC,he said his brother was putting it on and his little brother was fighting in it.

So i went, Vu was there as well. I thought a bunch of huge tough guys were very limited in their game. I also thought Royce had a very limited game ( except) for his ground skills. But I thought, " it's about time", a proving ground for all the big mouth boxer's, karate guys etc
4/5/10 12:59 AM
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WidespreadPanic
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Edited: 04/05/10 1:04 AM
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 I think a lot of 'karate guys' had a sneaking feeling that grappling could prove their undoing. I had figured it out in 1979 but for some odd reason did not know how to implement it. I could not see the 'training method', the 'delivery system' (guard, and takedowns to mount/guard), and did not know of any grapplers in my area that could implement it. I had sparred judo guys and they didn't either - they tried to stand up spar with me.

We didn't realize the need for mats, and few guys realised the need for fighting in a ring (or cage or some kind of enclosure).

Most if not all people who would spar or go out of their system still saw MA as a 'collection of tricks'. So the big 'sea change' was the guard, use of the legs, smothering an attack, takedowns and not being hit coming in - getting the fight to the ground asap, and after mount getting the opponent to turn over being vulnerable to a choke. The key was going from 'non-contact range' to contact range and then to the ground - always getting closer and not making contact and then going back to non-contact. Small thing to realize but big impact.

At the time, in my personal system my credo was 'A fight is not over until the guy is neutralized on the ground'. But I admit at the time, my end point was either a pin or a hold down, such as a knee on the opponent's face, him face down. IOW, I knew that just hitting someone or doing a take down was NOT the end point. (unless you got a KO) and even then one should not 'stop' - make sure you didn't break contact - i.e. throw a guy and have him fall several feet from you out of grasp.

I could NOT get this / these concepts across to the master instructor - I talked myself blue in the face.

Anyway, it's all about the 'conceptualization' - you can literally have the 'truth' in front of you and not 'see' it - much like watching a soccer game for the first time and not knowing how the teams and defense is structured with wings and forwards and stuff and it just looks like a mish-mash of guys running around.

Even guys who -saw- the Gracies doing their thing (Gracies in Action came out in the early 80s) could -not- conceptualize it in time to do much about it in the early UFCs (except for the Brazilians Rua, and guys like him in Luta Livre)

In fact on the Gracies in Action tapes - guys go in and spar, get choked or armbarred and want to do it again and the same thing happens - they didn't get it (though Jason Delucia did take up BJJ. I don't think Ron VanClief did - for example).

$0.02
   
4/5/10 3:05 AM
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nowaydo
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I love the video of Joe Lewis(kickboxer) giving a seminar in 1980. He gives a laundry list of his past (sifus, gurus) instructors, but in the end says his wrestling coach could beat them all!
4/5/10 8:49 AM
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Joe Maffei
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Noway. One of my guys George Carson was fighting in some hockey rink for the IFC
( it was still illegal at that time so it was on some Indian reservation) Tony Blauer & Lewis were commentating. This was around 1995 Lewis actually said on camara
" this kid Carson, he's punching, kicking, elbowing ground fighting, he's not doing JKD?" that just shows you really how ignorant even the most up to date instructors were back then. But I have been with Rickson & Renso for 7 years by then. To hear something like that from Lewis just made me smile." We were on track & way a head of the game"
You want a HOOT, go watch UFC 1, you will see Vu get his face on camera during a break. I still torture him about that ( Free advertising)
....:)
4/5/10 11:59 AM
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nowaydo
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Funny!
4/5/10 1:57 PM
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Kai Tremeche
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Nowaydo: Do you have a link to the video? That's awesome.

Thanks for the info guys, I wish I would have known about the Gracies earlier.
4/5/10 2:35 PM
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nowaydo
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 I didn't get the quote exactly right, but I was close: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5p0-eSp1dU4

The whole thing is quite interesting, but he begins to talk about styles at the 3:00 mark.
4/7/10 8:25 PM
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twinkletoesCT
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Modern Self-Defense Center, Head Instructor
I wish I could read that magazine, so I could find out if Chi *IS* a product of Satan.
4/8/10 4:11 PM
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WidespreadPanic
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nowaydo - I love the video of Joe Lewis(kickboxer) giving a seminar in 1980. He gives a laundry list of his past (sifus, gurus) instructors, but in the end says his wrestling coach could beat them all!
NOt to dispute you, but that's not what happened.

He was talking to an interviewer and said 'If I had to choose (among his various styles, boxing, ma) I'd go back to wrestling, because I think a wrestler'd beat 'em all'. This was at a seminar in 1990.

Now the thing that I don't think Joe realized at the time was exactly why this was the case. At the time, they didn't make a distinction between alive arts like boxing and wrestling and all the 'other stuff'. True, Joe's background in MA was more of a fighting style, but still heavily biased towards 'point fighting'.

If you look at the way he's teaching the seminar, it's very 'point fighting oriented'. Imagine a boxing coach running a seminar and standing out there with no gloves, gear or mouthpiece showing 'combinations'. Though I like Joe, that kind of 'striking' teaching really doesn't transfer - I seriously doubt anyone got much from that (again in fairness it was 1990). You have to give participants a 'body feel'. Also, maybe they asked for a more point-fighting seminar - Joe said he could do it however, even doing Kata (He said he got the most requests for kata workshops).

But your point remains - just clarifying.

$0.02

 
4/8/10 4:12 PM
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WidespreadPanic
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nowaydo -  I didn't get the quote exactly right, but I was close: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5p0-eSp1dU4

The whole thing is quite interesting, but he begins to talk about styles at the 3:00 mark.

Oops - just read this. Yeah, he's talking about himself. Well, got the vid embedded anyway. lol
12/13/10 8:48 AM
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Seul
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Ttt, this is a really interesting thread. For later. Phone Post
12/13/10 12:24 PM
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Radd
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After a while, reading posts from former JKD people mentioning their problems and dislike of JKD gets a little tiresome.
12/15/10 7:04 PM
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Demitrius Barbito
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"""After a while, reading posts from former JKD people mentioning their problems and dislike of JKD gets a little tiresome."""

I couldn't agree more.

There is some value in some of it though. We all need to police ourselves and also be tolerant of others. We all have blind spots as we work our way through all of this. It helps when others point them out in a kind and productive way.
12/26/10 7:09 PM
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phauna
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It's because MMA has supplanted JKD. Most JKD people just do BJJ, muay thai and then some knife and stick on the side, ergo they aren't really doing JKD as a formal system anymore. Crosstraining is not JKD, but it does a better job of JKD than JKD does. I only come here for some knife and stick stuff. I don't want to talk about lineages, old JKD personalities, and above all I don't want to talk about Bruce Lee.

Another thing is that, coming from someone who doesn't live in the states and has never seen Dan Inosanto in the flesh, when I see him demonstrate on youtube he looks like a TMAer. Perhaps he's not, I don't know, but a lot of the old guard JKD people, to me, look like TMAers and I want nothing to do with them. I don't want to learn a million defanging the snake techniques or the history of the Phillipines. I wish MA was more like soccer, just a bunch of drills to do, and if you do them you get better. I don't want to travel to Sumatra to learn some long, lost technique.

Another thing is that JKD is now more attribute based. As mentioned above, the tricks don't work as well any more because lots of people know them and also everyone has better delivery systems. I'd rather practice clinch work than practice eye gouging which is not something I'd want to do to someone anyway and something that is easy to insert if you can already clinch.
12/27/10 1:16 PM
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Majic Sam
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That would all depend on whether it's a good idea to eye jab and split,or close the gap and clinch.Depends on the given situation.Both are applicable.
12/28/10 12:53 PM
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Stickgrappler
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Edited: 12/28/10 12:55 PM
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Speaking for myself... my work got way busy... also home comp is on its deathbed... my work has new firewall which makes me use 'quota time' when I do have time to surf forums... those factors all combine for my lack of presence. That and I am but a beginner, nowhere near the experience or knowledge of the regulars here, so I usually lurk.

Very truly yours in the MA and SD,

~sg
1/2/11 5:14 AM
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WidespreadPanic
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phauna - It's because MMA has supplanted JKD. Most JKD people just do BJJ, muay thai and then some knife and stick on the side, ergo they aren't really doing JKD as a formal system anymore. Crosstraining is not JKD, but it does a better job of JKD than JKD does. I only come here for some knife and stick stuff. I don't want to talk about lineages, old JKD personalities, and above all I don't want to talk about Bruce Lee.

Another thing is that, coming from someone who doesn't live in the states and has never seen Dan Inosanto in the flesh, when I see him demonstrate on youtube he looks like a TMAer. Perhaps he's not, I don't know, but a lot of the old guard JKD people, to me, look like TMAers and I want nothing to do with them. I don't want to learn a million defanging the snake techniques or the history of the Phillipines. I wish MA was more like soccer, just a bunch of drills to do, and if you do them you get better. I don't want to travel to Sumatra to learn some long, lost technique.

Another thing is that JKD is now more attribute based. As mentioned above, the tricks don't work as well any more because lots of people know them and also everyone has better delivery systems. I'd rather practice clinch work than practice eye gouging which is not something I'd want to do to someone anyway and something that is easy to insert if you can already clinch.

THIS is a five-star post, imo. (VTFU). JKD "concepts" still have a place, but only in the context of aliveness and MMA, and the way to train. (see my bolding above).

If I can win at a range by dominating position and space it's MUCH better than trying to eye gouge, though that's still an option, it's not a primary. (position before submission).

Thanks phauna.

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