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UnderGround Forums >> Pellegrino: Head plant knocked Camoes out


3/28/10 3:35 PM
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Freqman
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Could someone source the rules that say it has to be a take down? Those are NOT the rules in New Jersey.

---Source http://www.state.nj.us/lps/sacb/docs/martial.htm

l13:46-24A.15 Fouls #25 Spiking an opponent to the canvas on his or her head or neck.---

There is no language on control, takedown, etc...

Kirik, again a ton of respect, but I'm curious on which commission has deemed the spiking rule to not apply in this situation?

A punch to the head missing a mark by inches or a slight variation in the angle of an elbow can be judgment call.

Spiking an opponent on the head or neck seems pretty cut and dry in this instance.
3/28/10 4:42 PM
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Kirik
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toshii - 
Kirik - 
toshii - 
ajl416az - 
toshii - "Spiking an opponent to the canvas on his head or neck"

LOL at people trying to "interpret" that foul by adding qualifications.  Oh, only if the opponent has "control".  whatever

lol, by "people", do you mean the licensed referee discussing the rules on this thread?
 

but i suppose you know more, because you're a fan.  lol.
With all due respect to Kirki and other referees, are you saying that licensed referees have a better understanding of plain english than the general population?  Are licensed referees are allowed to insert additional language into the rules?
  

 Yes, licensed refereees have a better understand of the rules than does some who knows how to use the gpogle.

No, licensed referees are not allowed to insert language into the rules. However, words necessarily have interpretation. The rules prohibit "downward" strikes with "the point of the elbow". Does that mean anything that moves downward and hits with the point of the elbow is forbidden? Well, no. The rules prohibit strikes to the back of the head. Does that mean you divide the head into front and a back and then everything that lands on the back half is prohibited? Well, no. And so on.

I appreciate very much all this dialogue about safety. I am just a little taken aback by the people who think I am making this up on the spot, or am heated. I am just trying to explain how the rules have been for more than ten years.
Google allows you to look up the rule and see that it is a short and plain statement that says no spiking.  I don't see how expertise in grappling or refereeing allows one to interpret a rule to say something other than what it says.  If there is any ambiguity about this, the MMA commission should resolve it, not each referee's own personal discretion.

You are of course correct, and i apologize if I anywhere gave an alternative impression. It is not up to the referee to use his own personal interpretation. It is up to the referee to administer the rules according to the interpretation by the regulating AC. I have cornered in over a dozen different states, and at the rules meeting the ref will explain the interpretation in force as to what constitutes the back of the head, what is a spike, what is an illegal "elbow" and etc. I have also reffed in several states, and explained those interpretations for the fighters and their corners.

This is the equivalent of case law in the US system of justice.
3/28/10 4:55 PM
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Razormanxx
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yeah it was a dangerous spike on his head, but not illegal. It'd be the same as someone going for an armbar, you can spike them right on there head. the fighter needs to let go, if they chose to hang on to an armbar, or hold the back, or hold a triangle good chance they will get smashed on their head
3/28/10 5:53 PM
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ranier wolfcastle
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 musta hurt his neck too
3/28/10 6:23 PM
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maumoco
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that was a spike!!!!! batman's only way to get out of that position....... he knows the rules!!! and for the record slamming to the side of the head is legal, but to the top of the skull is called a Spike!!!! how can you win bye ko from a spike its like puting a finger in his eye then ko-ing him out?
Dana needs to rule this a no contest....bottom line

really, is he proud, as a jiu-jitsu guy, to win like that! no pride, no honor!
3/28/10 6:41 PM
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D_S_A
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yeah, i thought he was out

and i'm sure many people would disagree but i say thats a bitch move by pellegrino

legal or not under the incompetent rules, that shits gonna break someones neck some day

3/28/10 6:43 PM
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gilbertfan
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Kirik,
With all due respect that was a Spike. Nowhere in the unified rules does it state that the rule does not apply if the combatant who is spiked has control/dominant position. NAC 467.7962 simply declares a foul for "18. Spiking an opponent to the canvas on his head or neck."

There is no room for interpretation on this issue. Clearly the intent was to cause damage and loosen the back mount. Its not like he landed a blow to high kick to the back of the combatants head with the target being the jaw. That example of intended target vs actual target. Here the target is clear.

Ref should have called a foul and deducted a point.

3/28/10 7:00 PM
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CindyO
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Underground News - 

Pellegrino: Head plant knocked Camoes out

[mmajunkie.com]
 

At UFC 111 Fabricio Camoes took Kurt Pellegrino's back, and locked in what appeared to be a definitive rear naked choke. Batman then executed a defense not taught in gi class - he dove forward, with their combined weights driving Camoes straight onto his head. In the next round Pellegrino returned the submission favor, ending it with a 65k winning submission of the night rear naked choke.

"To be honest with you, he was completely knocked out. He froze. I turned around  and his eyes were rolled in the back of his head. He was like frozen and stuck on me. When I was able to get around, I thought they were going to stop the fight. When I turned around, he was out. By just me hitting him a little bit, it kind of woke him up."

"It was the weirdest thing."

"I felt the best I've ever felt in my career. I think there's more of those fights to come. I wasn't tired, and that was a pretty fast pace for jiu jitsu. It was fun. I'm ready for the next one."

 

 They don't even face each other in the clip so how could Kurt sees his eyes? Wrong GIF?

Cindy
3/28/10 7:07 PM
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Sortilege
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I appreciate very much all this dialogue about safety. I am just a little taken aback by the people who think I am making this up on the spot, or am heated. I am just trying to explain how the rules have been for more than ten years.


I apologize if I misconstrued your statement as being heated or being made up on the spot. However, I strongly disagree with your interpretation.

It is an interpretation I have heard dozens of times, as I am also a long time MMA competitor and coach. Normally it's in response to an armbar or triangle from Guard and slamming your way out but the backmount is a different animal. If you want to let go of an armbar just relax and it will let go all by itself, you cannot do the same with the backmount once you put a hook in. Especially if someone is holding on to you...

I've had numerous discussions with everything from Atheletic comissioners to amateur referees. What Pellegrino did was dangerous, you're saying that his opponent had time to recognize what was going on, let go and protect himself all in about the span of about a second - I find that ridiculous.

I think that since you've been in this sport for such a long time and have done so much to help it, it would behoove you (and me) to do what we can to ensure that it is as safe as it can be. I'm not saying strap pillows to every fighter and let them go at it but clarifying the rule the way the International Judo Federation has done would be a step in the right direction IMO...

http://www.intjudo.eu/?Menu=Static_Page&Action=List&m_static_id=42&lang_id=2&mid=7&main=12

[you will be disqualified if you...] "dive" head first, onto the Tatami by bending forward and downward while performing or attempting to perform techniques such as Uchimata, Harai-goshi, etc. or to fall directly backwards while performing or attempting to perform techniques such as Kata-guruma whether standing or kneeling.
(33) To intentionally fall backwards when the other contestant is clinging to his back and when either contestant has control of the other's movement.

The only thing I would add is that it's illegal to intentionall fall forwards whent he other contestant is clinging to his back and when either contestant has control of the other's movements.

That doesn't sound crazy, especially considering head/spine attacks like Pellegrino engaged in are extremely dangerous / life threatening.
3/28/10 7:13 PM
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Dougie
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puddlesmith - Fouls : Spiking an opponent to the canvas on his head or neck

 Good point, I think this rule was to stop the idea of catching a guy and power bimbing him after he tries to shoot.
3/28/10 7:18 PM
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Kirik
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gilbertfan - Kirik,
With all due respect that was a Spike. Nowhere in the unified rules does it state that the rule does not apply if the combatant who is spiked has control/dominant position. NAC 467.7962 simply declares a foul for "18. Spiking an opponent to the canvas on his head or neck."

There is no room for interpretation on this issue. Clearly the intent was to cause damage and loosen the back mount. Its not like he landed a blow to high kick to the back of the combatants head with the target being the jaw. That example of intended target vs actual target. Here the target is clear.

Ref should have called a foul and deducted a point.

With all due respect, you are factually incorrect.

There is room for interpretation on miany things in a rule book, most simply what "Back of the head" means. In the case of the term spike, the unified rules are almost universally interpreted by the regulating ACs nationwide as referriing to a case where the attacker has control of the opponent. The most common example generally provided is an arm bar. If you have an arm bar, your opponent can spike you, because you have control of what position you are in. Likewise, if you have someone's back with a choke in, they can spike you, because you can control where it goes. Let go of the choke and put out a forearm.

This one isn't even close to questionable.


 
3/28/10 7:47 PM
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MattBenwa
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I'm surprised to hear a lot of long term posters questioning this one - like Kirik has so eloquently stated, what Kurt did isn't and has never been a foul.
3/28/10 7:57 PM
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gilbertfan
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Kirik,

I think one is on thin ice when one interprets the unified rules this way. If Camoes suffered a career ending injury it might color interpretation here. As for universal interpretation by ACs, I am not really sure what that means. I certainly don't interpret them that way. Rules are interpreted based on intent and the intent was clear.
3/28/10 8:08 PM
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gilbertfan
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Kirik,

A good example of interpretation of intent would be Herb Dean allowing the knee to Buentello's head when Buentello put his hand down. Clearly Buentello's head was struck by Kongo's knee yet no foul was issued. This is Herb interpreting intnt of the what is considered a downed opponent. Nowhere in rule 18 of the unified rules do I see anything about having control or a submission dialed in. If one is going to remain a literal interpreter or just an intent interpreter one has to choose his interpretitive style. Not choose the one that wins the discussion.
3/28/10 8:11 PM
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Mike Russell
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Edited: 03/28/10 8:12 PM
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gilbertfan - Kirik,

A good example of interpretation of intent would be Herb Dean allowing the knee to Buentello's head when Buentello put his hand down. Clearly Buentello's head was struck by Kongo's knee yet no foul was issued. This is Herb interpreting intnt of the what is considered a downed opponent. Nowhere in rule 18 of the unified rules do I see anything about having control or a submission dialed in. If one is going to remain a literal interpreter or just an intent interpreter one has to choose his interpretitive style. Not choose the one that wins the discussion.
I think you mean perception, not interpretation. Dean likely perceived it one way because he didn't see the hand on the mat.

 interpretation |in?t?rpri?t? sh ?n|nounthe action of explaining the meaning of something the interpretation of data.• an explanation or way of explaining this action is open to a number of interpretations.• a stylistic representation of a creative work or dramatic role two differing interpretations, both bearing the distinctive hallmarks of each writer's perspective.

perception |p?r?sep sh ?n|noun• a way of regardingunderstanding, or interpreting something; a mental impression Hollywood's perception of the tastes of the American public we need to challenge many popular perceptions of old age.

 
3/28/10 8:15 PM
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gilbertfan
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gilbertfan - Kirik,

A good example of interpretation of intent would be Herb Dean allowing the knee to Buentello's head when Buentello put his hand down. Clearly Buentello's head was struck by Kongo's knee yet no foul was issued. This is Herb interpreting intnt of the what is considered a downed opponent. Nowhere in rule 18 of the unified rules do I see anything about having control or a submission dialed in. If one is going to remain a literal interpreter or just an intent interpreter one has to choose his interpretitive style. Not choose the one that wins the discussion.
I think you mean perception, not interpretation. Dean likely perceived it one way because he didn't see the hand on the mat.

 <span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Baskerville; font-size: medium; line-height: normal; "><span class="hwGrp"><span d:priority="2" d:dhw="1" class="hw" style="font-size: 24px; ">interpretation</span><span class="pronGrp"><span d:pr="US" type="US" class="pr" style="font-family: HiraMinPro-W3; "> |in?t?rpri?t?<span class="sc" style="font-variant: small-caps; "> sh </span>?n|</span></span></span><span class="SB" style="display: block; margin-left: 1em; text-indent: -1em; "><span class="prelim"><span d:ps="1" class="ps" style="font-weight: normal; ">noun</span></span><span d:abs="1" class="sense" style="display: block; "><span class="def" style="font-weight: normal; ">the action of explaining the meaning of <span apple_mouseover_highlight="1">something</span> </span><span d:priority="2" class="ex" style="font-style: italic; "><span class="lbl" style="font-weight: normal; ">: </span>the interpretation of data.</span><span d:priority="2" class="specUse" style="display: block; text-indent: 0px; "><span class="MS" style="display: block; "><span class="lbl" style="font-family: LucidaGrande; font-size: 13px; ">• </span><span class="def" style="font-weight: normal; ">an explanation or way of explaining </span><span d:priority="2" class="ex" style="font-style: italic; "><span class="lbl" style="font-weight: normal; ">: </span>this action is open to a number of interpretations.</span></span><span class="MS" style="display: block; "><span class="lbl" style="font-family: LucidaGrande; font-size: 13px; ">• </span><span class="def" style="font-weight: normal; ">a stylistic <span apple_mouseover_highlight="1">representation</span> of a creative work or dramatic role </span><span d:priority="2" class="ex" style="font-style: italic; "><span class="lbl" style="font-weight: normal; ">: </span>two differing <span apple_mouseover_highlight="1">interpretations</span>, both bearing the distinctive hallmarks of each writer's perspective.

<span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Baskerville; font-style: normal; "><span class="hwGrp"><span d:priority="2" d:dhw="1" class="hw" style="font-size: 24px; ">perception</span><span class="pronGrp"><span d:pr="US" type="US" class="pr" style="font-family: HiraMinPro-W3; "> |p?r?sep<span class="sc" style="font-variant: small-caps; "> sh </span>?n|</span></span></span><span class="SB" style="display: block; margin-left: 1em; text-indent: -1em; "><span class="prelim"><span d:ps="1" class="ps" style="font-weight: normal; "><span apple_mouseover_highlight="1">noun</span></span></span><span d:abs="1" class="sense" style="display: block; "><span d:priority="2" class="specUse" style="display: block; text-indent: 0px; "><span class="MS" style="display: block; "><span class="lbl" style="font-family: LucidaGrande; font-size: 13px; ">• </span><span class="def" style="font-weight: normal; ">a way of <span apple_mouseover_highlight="1">regarding</span>, <span apple_mouseover_highlight="1">understanding</span>, or interpreting something; a mental impression </span><span d:priority="2" class="ex" style="font-style: italic; "><span class="lbl" style="font-weight: normal; ">: </span>Hollywood's <span apple_mouseover_highlight="1">perception</span> <span apple_mouseover_highlight="1">of</span> <span apple_mouseover_highlight="1">the</span> <span apple_mouseover_highlight="1">tastes</span> <span apple_mouseover_highlight="1">of</span> <span apple_mouseover_highlight="1">the</span> American public </span><span d:priority="2" class="exGrp"><span class="lbl">| </span><span d:priority="2" class="ex" style="font-style: italic; ">we need to challenge many popular perceptions of <span apple_mouseover_highlight="1">old age</span>.</span></span></span></span></span></span></span>
<br type="_moz" /></span></span></span></span></span></span> 

No I mean Interpretation.
Herb interpreted Buentello not to be a down opponent as he felt Buentello intentionally put his hand down and was "playing that game" in Herb's words. But thanks for your cut and paste dictionary help.
3/28/10 8:24 PM
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Mike Russell
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 Actually, it was because of how he perceived the situation. Dean didn't call a foul because the knee was already in motion before Paul touched the mat.
3/28/10 8:34 PM
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TheParrot
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 The only person Kurt spiked was himself.  Camoes followed along for the ride. 
3/28/10 8:36 PM
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TheVileOne
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A spike is when the body is FULLY inverted/upside down and feet are up in the air.
3/28/10 8:47 PM
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spg
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Nicdom - Don't wanna get slammed on you head? Don't ride high on the back and use your hands to defend yourself instead of worrying about the choke.

As was said previously, this isn't No-gi BJJ.

This argument makes no sense.

Don't want to get eye poked?  Don't let someone touch your eyes.
Don't want to get soccer kicked in the head?  Stay off the ground.
Don't want to get groin kicked?  Protect the jewels!

This isn't BJJ!!!
3/28/10 8:51 PM
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thebisket
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Kirik - 
gilbertfan - Kirik,
With all due respect that was a Spike. Nowhere in the unified rules does it state that the rule does not apply if the combatant who is spiked has control/dominant position. NAC 467.7962 simply declares a foul for "18. Spiking an opponent to the canvas on his head or neck."

There is no room for interpretation on this issue. Clearly the intent was to cause damage and loosen the back mount. Its not like he landed a blow to high kick to the back of the combatants head with the target being the jaw. That example of intended target vs actual target. Here the target is clear.

Ref should have called a foul and deducted a point.

With all due respect, you are factually incorrect.

There is room for interpretation on miany things in a rule book, most simply what "Back of the head" means. In the case of the term spike, the unified rules are almost universally interpreted by the regulating ACs nationwide as referriing to a case where the attacker has control of the opponent. The most common example generally provided is an arm bar. If you have an arm bar, your opponent can spike you, because you have control of what position you are in. Likewise, if you have someone's back with a choke in, they can spike you, because you can control where it goes. Let go of the choke and put out a forearm.

This one isn't even close to questionable.


 
VTFU
(but in all actuallity, does it make a difference for Kirik...)
 
3/28/10 8:55 PM
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caposa
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 Legal slam:



Illegal but not called by Herb Dean:



Definition of an illegal spike:

3/28/10 9:00 PM
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orcus
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 "Definition of an illegal spike:
"


I don't think suplexes are at all illegal, are they?
3/28/10 9:29 PM
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koreviewz
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 I can't believe how many people, including Kirik, are totally wrong on this.  The rules simply state that you can not spike an opponent on his head...period.  Doesn't say anything in the unified rules about who is in control of who.

I've always thought that was a bitch move, dangerous and totally illegal.

Camoes should file for a no contest, I can't see how he could lose.
3/28/10 9:32 PM
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Mike Russell
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koreviewz -  I can't believe how many people, including Kirik, are totally wrong on this.  The rules simply state that you can not spike an opponent on his head...period.  Doesn't say anything in the unified rules about who is in control of who.

I've always thought that was a bitch move, dangerous and totally illegal.

Camoes should file for a no contest, I can't see how he could lose.
Maybe he can get you to represent him in the hearing. What are your credentials again??
 

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