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UnderGround Forums >> Pellegrino: Head plant knocked Camoes out


3/29/10 12:07 AM
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LoganClark
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This thread is mind bottling.
3/29/10 12:20 AM
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Pernicious
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gorillagrappling - ^^^This thread is not over until you all agree with me.


Hey look!

You're blue.

I wonder if that's Kirik's way of saying "/thread."
3/29/10 1:19 AM
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ausgepicht
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Only sport BJJers complain. Always complaining about wrestlers and wrestling, or trying to get some part of wrestling banned from their competitions. Ban leglocks, ban slams, ban neck cranks, ban spikes, ban elbows, wah, wah, wah.

They'll be asking for guard passes to be banned soon enough. They will ban everything until it resembles the Mundials.

3/29/10 6:45 AM
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Yves Lavigne
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Edited: 03/29/10 6:45 AM
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FYI

28.. Spiking the opponent to the canvas onto the head or neck (pile-driving)
A pile driver is considered to be any throw where you control your opponent's
body placing his feet straight up in the air with his head straight down and then
forcibly drive your opponents head into the canvas or flooring material. It should
be noted when a fighter is placed into a submission hold by their opponent, if that
fighter is capable of elevating their opponent they may bring that opponent down
in any fashion they desire because they are not in control of their opponents
body. The fighter who is attempting the submission can either adjust their
position, or let go of their hold before being slammed to the canvas. *** This is
crucial that referees are properly advised and trained and that
the fighters fully understand this at the rules meeting ***
29.


http://mmajunkie.com/files/NewOrleansABCMMARulesReport.pdf
3/29/10 7:19 AM
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greco yeoman
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Thanks Yves.

Dangerous rule, imo.

Good comparison to case law Kirik.
3/29/10 7:30 AM
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Wally Saves
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 A piledriver is a professional wrestling driver move in which the wrestler grabs his opponent, turns him upside-down, and drops into a sitting or kneeling position, driving the opponent head-first into the mat.[1] The most common piledrivers are the basic belly-to-back, or Texas piledriver, and the belly-to-belly tombstone piledriver, but many more intricate variants are in use.

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piledriver_(professional_wrestling)

 
 

3/29/10 7:31 AM
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Blazing Knees
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Foos - I would be in favor of banning this move.

 Me too.

Some Judo throws too.
3/29/10 7:38 AM
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Blazing Knees
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K Rod - first and foremost, kurt did a totally leagal move and busted that nigga up. I woulda did the same fuckin thing if i had another bjj black belt on my back. secondly, i love all u wimpy ass white namers that are sulking about it. wah wah wah he almost broke his neck,its fuckin mma. Get over it nancy, he did what he had to do to get his win money and it also led to a sub of the night bonus. All that is, is rising to the occasion stupid. Go get an education in mma then come argue you dicktouching spectator nerds.

 Wow, such a tough guy, scary.

Because we don't want to see someone ( maybe you?) in a wheelchair for life or all 4 of thier limbs useless with feeding tubes and breathing machines hooked up to them it makes us " wimpy nancy dicktouchers"?

I think you been hit once too many times in the tater or you were drinking when you posted this.

I hope.
3/29/10 7:44 AM
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sacredhate
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why in the world should that move be banned...if you don't want to land on your head you can simply let go of the submission and avoid it. Sure that takes awareness, but so does avoiding a head kick.
3/29/10 8:31 AM
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gilbertfan
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Yves Lavigne - FYI

28.. Spiking the opponent to the canvas onto the head or neck (pile-driving)
A pile driver is considered to be any throw where you control your opponent's
body placing his feet straight up in the air with his head straight down and then
forcibly drive your opponents head into the canvas or flooring material. It should
be noted when a fighter is placed into a submission hold by their opponent, if that
fighter is capable of elevating their opponent they may bring that opponent down
in any fashion they desire because they are not in control of their opponents
body. The fighter who is attempting the submission can either adjust their
position, or let go of their hold before being slammed to the canvas. *** This is
crucial that referees are properly advised and trained and that
the fighters fully understand this at the rules meeting ***
29.


This is merely the rule committees interpretation of the rule. It is not the actual rule as adopted by the individual ACs. The rules committee has proposed several rules many don't agree with like hand wraps over the knuckles, various definitions of back of the head, different weight classes and many others. Its up to the individual ACs to adopt these interpretations or changes. I am fairly certain you are correct in this circumstance as Mr. Lembo is on this committee and the event occurred in NJ. I personally don't agree with this interpretation.
3/29/10 9:06 AM
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Yves Lavigne
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gilbertfan - 
Yves Lavigne - FYI


This is merely the rule committees interpretation of the rule. It is not the actual rule as adopted by the individual ACs. The rules committee has proposed several rules many don't agree with like hand wraps over the knuckles, various definitions of back of the head, different weight classes and many others. Its up to the individual ACs to adopt these interpretations or changes. I am fairly certain you are correct in this circumstance as Mr. Lembo is on this committee and the event occurred in NJ. I personally don't agree with this interpretation.



FYI

(On July 30, 2009, A motion was made by Bill Colbert, (UT) at the annual meeting of the Association of Boxing Commissions to adopt these rule as the Unified Rules of Mixed Martial Arts with the understanding that any commission can require them more stringent. Motion was seconded by Joel Campuzano, (IL) Motion Pass Unanimously.)


http://www.abcboxing.com/unified_mma_rules.html
3/29/10 9:17 AM
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caposa
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 Yves Levigne just ended the thread

thanks for stopping by man

you are one of the best
3/29/10 9:24 AM
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twinkletoesCT
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I have had this done to me twice in training.

I had someone's back, they grabbed over top of my arms and somersaulted. We both landed on the corner of my head, and my neck was cranked forcefully. In both events, I lost feeling in my left arm and leg for several minutes and was unable to move them. It was one of the scariest things I've ever had happen.

I still have neck problems because of it. I'm worried that the next time will be a career-ender.
3/29/10 9:31 AM
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Mike Russell
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gilbertfan will undoubtedly come back and refute Yves' evidence, which is airtight IMO. Yves was actually the first guy I contacted to ask about the rule on this as he is one of the most well-versed refs in MMA. The guy's like a walking rules encyclopedia.

IIRC, he is someone who worked for Armando Garcia at one point. Correct me if I'm wrong, gilbertfan. Remind us who you are again.
3/29/10 9:55 AM
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gilbertfan
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Mike Russell - I certainly did work as a ringside doc for the CSAC as listed in my profile. I worked for both Mr. Garcia and Douglas before moving to Tennessee and co-authoring the Tennessee Athletic Commission of 2008. I helped establish the rules here in TN and currently reside as a commissioner on the AC. I have been training BJJ for about 2 years now.

As for the ABC's interpretation of the unified rule set. It is up to each individual state to adopt the recommendations from the meetings. Personally I won't be recommending this spike interpretation at our next rules update next month. I don't always agree with their interpretations and thats what makes the world a fun place. For example their new Hybrid interpretation of back of the head makes no sense to me and wrapping over the knuckles doesn't either. And why muddy up a perfectly clear rule like no spiking on the head? If trajectory was an issue than I understand elaborating but adding control and position makes it less clear. Can an opponent release his hooks form backmount if his hooks are held
3/29/10 9:58 AM
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Brian123
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I agree with the rule. If you backpack/armbar/triangle someone and are in control, that's YOUR FAULT if you get dropped on your head.

By holding onto something like that after your feet are no longer touching the ground, you are willfully accepting the risk of being dropped however your opponent choses.

Is it gross, yes. Kurt at fault? Hell no.
3/29/10 9:59 AM
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dking
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it's very scary to see anyone get spiked like that. It's 1 thing to try to forward roll with your opponent to put yourself in a position to escape the control but spiking just leads to bad things
3/29/10 10:33 AM
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Kirik
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 Thank you Yves!
3/29/10 10:43 AM
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gilbertfan
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BTW Kirik I guess I need to read the whole minutes from the meetings.

I read the update minutes but not the section Yves referred to. So accept my apology.

I am hoping to be there in July so I can give my voice to this discussion. Clearly the ABC got this wrong
3/29/10 10:47 AM
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gilbertfan
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BTW Kirik I guess I need to read the whole minutes from the meetings.

I read the update minutes but not the section Yves referred to. So accept my apology.

I am hoping to be there in July so I can give my voice to this discussion. Clearly the ABC got this wrong.
3/29/10 10:55 AM
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sloppy2nds
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For anyone still interested in arguing with Kirik about this, stop for one second and ask yourself how much of a role you had creating the unified rules and how involved you were in the discussion about the unified rules over the last 16 years.

If your answer is none and none, then please shut the fuck up and casually observe.
3/29/10 11:07 AM
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Mike Russell
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gilbertfan - BTW Kirik I guess I need to read the whole minutes from the meetings.

I read the update minutes but not the section Yves referred to. So accept my apology.

I am hoping to be there in July so I can give my voice to this discussion. Clearly the ABC got this wrong.
Arrogance veiled in an apology. Classy.
 
3/29/10 11:10 AM
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sparkyman
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Kirik -  Completely legal moves - Camoes had control of Pellegrino, and not vice versa.

Thanks for clearing that up. I thought it was illegal.
 
3/29/10 11:51 AM
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gilbertfan
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Mike Russell - 
gilbertfan - BTW Kirik I guess I need to read the whole minutes from the meetings.

I read the update minutes but not the section Yves referred to. So accept my apology.

<b>I am hoping to be there in July so I can give my voice to this discussion. Clearly the ABC got this wrong.</b>
Arrogance veiled in an apology. Classy.
 

Mike,

Whats arrogant about admitting you're incorrect and apologizing?

How many commissioner's would actually do that?

I am entitled to my opinion just like you are. If I feel this interpretation is unsafe than I guess I earned that opinion with my 13 years of medical training, the fact I ran a spinal cord injury unit and my years of working as a ringside doc, as a martial artist and a hardcore fan.

I commented to start a healthy dialogue on a dangerous manuever.

Sore winner IMO. So UGish og you :)

Come to New Orleans and we can roll together. You can take my back and we'll see if you can release your RNC before I slam you on your head. Just kidding but you get my point about the danger of this technique.
3/29/10 12:02 PM
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Biggy
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thanks to Yves and Kirik for clearing this up.

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