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UnderGround Forums >> Pellegrino: Head plant knocked Camoes out


3/29/10 12:02 PM
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Biggy
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thanks to Yves and Kirik for clearing this up.
3/29/10 12:14 PM
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gilbertfan
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Edited: 03/29/10 12:14 PM
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Yves and Kirik 1 Gilbertfan 0
3/29/10 12:17 PM
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ausgepicht
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Yves Lavigne - FYI

28.. Spiking the opponent to the canvas onto the head or neck (pile-driving)
A pile driver is considered to be any throw where you control your opponent's
body placing his feet straight up in the air with his head straight down and then
forcibly drive your opponents head into the canvas or flooring material. It should
be noted when a fighter is placed into a submission hold by their opponent, if that
fighter is capable of elevating their opponent they may bring that opponent down
in any fashion they desire because they are not in control of their opponents
body. The fighter who is attempting the submission can either adjust their
position, or let go of their hold before being slammed to the canvas. *** This is
crucial that referees are properly advised and trained and that
the fighters fully understand this at the rules meeting ***
29.


http://mmajunkie.com/files/NewOrleansABCMMARulesReport.pdf
Thanks for shutting the arrogant know-it-alls up.
 
3/29/10 12:36 PM
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SRTGEO
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According to the rules posted on http://www.ufc.com/index.cfm?fa=LearnUFC.Rules #18, it's definately illegal.
3/29/10 12:41 PM
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K Rod
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I am a bottom guy so i have been dropped on my head a shit load of times. believe it or not yves was my ref like four years ago next month in Atlantic city. I fought a guy named al buck, and he dropped me on my head/neck in every single round and i still won a u.d.

thanks for calling me tough blazing knees. I think u should take a look at your profile real quick before u throw that sarcasm at me. I understand that i didn't attend the prestigious ghetto university as you did, and my hobbies don't including beating that ass. I only went to community college, but somehow i have managed to win twelve professional mma bouts and earn a black belt in BJJ. so maybe u should consider the switch yourself. also, why did u take your affliction shirt off in your profile pic. hahaha
3/29/10 12:52 PM
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ausgepicht
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True Warrior, close your html tag!
3/29/10 1:02 PM
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Freqman
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I appreciate the Nevada & Louisiana interpretations being posted, that sheds some light on the position Kirik has been discussing.

That said, I'm not sure if there has been any direction in interpretation for New Jersey. If anyone has that, it would be interesting to see.

I also think this is something that should be looked at closer, there are a lot of rules set up for fighter safety and the spiking is one of the most dangerous.

Most fighters won't be paralyzed with knees or elbows to the head, but it can easily happen with a spike, whether or not there is an "arc" to the spike.

Plus I still wonder how you determine control. If someone puts hooks in and then has those held, they are clearly no longer in control.
3/29/10 1:03 PM
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ausgepicht
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True Warrior, I deleted your post, because you forgot to close the HTML tags and it's interfering with the thread. I copied your post though:

GO TO 1:30 into VIDEO!!!! SLAM JITSU!!!!!

AS the refs explain it before the fight... "if a horse is running off a cliff and you dont jump off, it is your own fault"

3/29/10 1:23 PM
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Mike Russell
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SRTGEO - According to the rules posted on http://www.ufc.com/index.cfm?fa=LearnUFC.Rules #18, it's definately illegal.

You obviously haven't read much of what's been posted here. That is the rule, but the explanation of the rule as it is recognized by the ABC and the Unified Rules and therefore every AC that has adopted the URs is:

28.. Spiking the opponent to the canvas onto the head or neck (pile-driving)
A pile driver is considered to be any throw where you control your opponent's
body placing his feet straight up in the air with his head straight down and then
forcibly drive your opponents head into the canvas or flooring material. It should
be noted when a fighter is placed into a submission hold by their opponent, if that
fighter is capable of elevating their opponent they may bring that opponent down
in any fashion they desire because they are not in control of their opponents
body. The fighter who is attempting the submission can either adjust their
position, or let go of their hold before being slammed to the canvas. *** This is
crucial that referees are properly advised and trained and that
the fighters fully understand this at the rules meeting ***

3/29/10 2:00 PM
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twinkletoesCT
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Modern Self-Defense Center, Head Instructor
billyball2 - 
twinkletoesCT - I have had this done to me twice in training.

I had someone's back, they grabbed over top of my arms and somersaulted. We both landed on the corner of my head, and my neck was cranked forcefully. In both events, I lost feeling in my left arm and leg for several minutes and was unable to move them. It was one of the scariest things I've ever had happen.

I still have neck problems because of it. I'm worried that the next time will be a career-ender.


Respectfully, why the hell would you do the same thing the 2nd time? If you're on someone's back with hooks in while they are standing you're either going to get slammed backwards or spiked forward. From personal experience you knew this but did it again?


Billyball,

It wasn't from standing. I had the back from turtle, and in each case, the guy rolled forward HARD without warning.

In the first case, it was a guy much larger than myself. He didn't realize how much he had lifted us from the ground when he jumped into his roll.

After that case, I no longer sink my hooks on really big dudes who are turtling.

In the second instance, I had the back on a newbie who was a little smaller than me (and I'm only 175lbs). He tried to roll out and twist at the same time, and that landed us both on my head.

In both cases, they grabbed my arms right before they rolled. Why? I have no idea. But it stopped me from catching my fall with anything other than my skull.

Believe me, I wasn't thrilled either :(
3/29/10 2:27 PM
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Pernicious
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Yves Lavigne, proving he's one of the best refs as well as a damn fine thread ruiner! :)
3/29/10 2:31 PM
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Freqman
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Mike Russell - 
SRTGEO - According to the rules posted on http://www.ufc.com/index.cfm?fa=LearnUFC.Rules #18, it's definately illegal.

You obviously haven't read much of what's been posted here. That is the rule, but the explanation of the rule as it is recognized by the ABC and the Unified Rules and therefore every AC that has adopted the URs is:

<span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: small; line-height: 20px; ">28.. Spiking the opponent to the canvas onto the head or neck (pile-driving)
A pile driver is considered to be any throw where you control your opponent's
body placing his feet straight up in the air with his head straight down and then
forcibly drive your opponents head into the canvas or flooring material. It should
be noted when a fighter is placed into a submission hold by their opponent, if that
fighter is capable of elevating their opponent they may bring that opponent down
in any fashion they desire because they are not in control of their opponents
body. The fighter who is attempting the submission can either adjust their
position, or let go of their hold before being slammed to the canvas. *** This is
crucial that referees are properly advised and trained and that
the fighters fully understand this at the rules meeting ***

</span>


That's the Louisiana interpretation, all AC's DON'T necessarily have the same interpretations. That's why the Nevada interpretation is a bit different.

I'm wondering if NJ has offered any interpretation outside of their stated rule that spiking is a foul.

Again, if this is "legal". It is one of the few things I think the AC's may want to look at closer.
3/29/10 2:32 PM
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thforklift
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Hojak - 
Sortilege - It doesn't matter that Camoes was on his back, he couldn't let go of Pellegrino because *Pellegrino* was holding onto Camoes - scroll up look at the pics. Pellegrino grabs Camoes arms, holds him in place and then plants Camoes onto his neck.


That's Camoes' fault for putting himself in that position. Quite fairly, while Kurt put himself in a position to be choked by Camoes by giving up his back, Camoes put himself in a position to be slammed on his own head by climbing Kurt's back like a monkey.

Expect to see A LOT more of this when BJJ guys try to monkey climb their opponents from this position. This is an awesome defensive technique in a fight, and I hate to say it, but it was legal.

Sortilege - They were also about 2 feet off the ground are you suggesting that Camoes should be alert enough, to choke Pellegrino out and within the space of 2 feet be good enough to disentangle himself from a person holding on to him while being hurled headfirst into the ground?


That's what I'd be suggesting, yes. A grappler of his acumen has better damn well know that this position's drawback is that someone can slam him on his head when he obtains it. His bad for not defending it better in practice prior to the fight.
WOW- completely agree with Hojak. Good points. Feel dirty. 
 
3/29/10 2:39 PM
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TtoMyJ14
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 This is legal but it needs to be changed.
3/29/10 2:50 PM
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puddlesmith
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now that we know it's legal, hopefully everyone can agree it's very dangerous and could lead to serious injury..
3/29/10 2:51 PM
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TtoMyJ14 -  This is legal but it needs to be changed.
I agree. Hopefully they will make guard passing, leglocks, G&Ping, and wearing anything but GIs illegal too. The more easier for BJJers the better. We need to work until MMA resembles the Mundials. Rally people!
 
3/29/10 2:55 PM
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Edited: 03/29/10 2:55 PM
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puddlesmith - now that we know it's legal, hopefully everyone can agree it's very dangerous and could lead to serious injury..
Kind of like punching, kicking, elbowing, kneeing, slams, throws, leglocks, armlocks, chokes.....basically like MMA? I agree. Maybe we can make it more like macrame. After all I am sure Camoes' team will have a press conference revealing that he actually died Saturday night.
  
3/29/10 2:57 PM
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HAMMER
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Ouch.
3/29/10 2:58 PM
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butcher4
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ausgepicht - 
TtoMyJ14 -  This is legal but it needs to be changed.
I agree. Hopefully they will make guard passing, leglocks, G&Ping, and wearing anything but GIs illegal too. The more easier for BJJers the better. We need to work until MMA resembles the Mundials. Rally people!
 


We can't be sure that everyone will be safe until all takedowns are banned. Instead, one fighter should just sit down and invite his opponent into his guard, and the opponent should oblige him.
3/29/10 3:02 PM
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Windfall
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Kirik - You have the right in a fight to not get punched in the back of the head. But you also have a responsibility to not turn your head so a shot lands there.

Ding ding! This was the comparison I was looking for.

The move was 100% legal, and it *should* be 100% legal.


^ Tyson Griffin did the same thing to Tavares, I can't find GIF.

As was compared, there are plenty of rules that claim what an 'attacker' can't do - ie, hit the back of the head. That doesn't mean the recipient of the damage has the right to purposefully receive damage in the hopes of drawing a foul.

1. A fighter can't purposefully kneel when he sees an incoming head-knee to draw a foul.

2. A fighter can't purposefully turn his head at a punch to draw a foul. (and I actually see attackers get warned for this all the time - it is ridiculous!!! If you are throwing GNP, and it not your fault that your opponent turns his head back and forth and some of your shots hit the back - not the attacker's fault)

3. A fighter can't LET HIMSELF get spiked on his head while he holds onto a sub. Or rather, I should say, he CAN let himself get spiked - it is his choice.
3/29/10 3:05 PM
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mad tiger
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so you cant liver kick a guy but you can spike him on his head to defend? MMA is gayer then ever.
3/29/10 3:14 PM
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butcher4 - 
ausgepicht - 
TtoMyJ14 -  This is legal but it needs to be changed.
I agree. Hopefully they will make guard passing, leglocks, G&Ping, and wearing anything but GIs illegal too. The more easier for BJJers the better. We need to work until MMA resembles the Mundials. Rally people!
 
We can't be sure that everyone will be safe until all takedowns are banned. Instead, one fighter should just sit down and invite his opponent into his guard, and the opponent should oblige him.
WHERE"S MY HEAD?! LOL...
 
3/29/10 3:30 PM
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brune90
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Belchers attempt on Okami was pretty f'n awsome. That said I like the move. I think there is still a bit of ambiguity (sp?) within the rule. For instance, If one were trying defend the attacking hold and secured on of the attacking arms before throwing there own body forward would this then be classified as throwing the attackign competitor?
3/29/10 3:33 PM
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brune90
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notice how alan secures okami's arm. I guess okami could release the hooks but i think he would be thrown regardless.
3/29/10 3:52 PM
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HexRei
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koreviewz -  The fight was in NJ, not Nevada.  Check the NJ rules.


Ok, I did. I couldn't find them so I emailed Nick Lembo of the NJ SACB and he pointed me to this document:

http://www.nj.gov/oag/sacb/docs/2009-ABC-Discussion-and-Review-of-MMA-Report.pdf

It is essentially the same definition as the NV definition of spiking, and furthermore spells out the fact that this type of spike is perfectly legal:

It should be noted that when a fighter is placed into a submission hold by their opponent, if that fighter is capable of elevating their opponent they may bring that opponent down in any fashion they desire because they are not in control of their opponent's body. The fighter who is attempting the submission can either adjust their position or let go of their hold before being slammed to the canvas.


Now, definitely /thread.

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