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HolyGround >> Uh, who froze my thread?!?


3/28/10 11:43 PM
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the rooster
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Are you kidding me?!?! I've posted on here for years and never had a thread frozen. I posted a relevant question that crossed political and religious grounds and it was frozen!?!?

I mean, throughout GW's term, libs on here repeatedly brought up GW's Christianity and used it as a launching ground to mock "right wing Christians" etc.

1 remark against El Comandante and it's frozen?

Joe Ray, to answer you and others...no, not a troll or a joke. There seems to be a political afinity to is muslim culture. He was in an islamic country when he declared that the US was not a Christian nation but may even be more rightly declared a muslim nation. He forgot to mentioned the myriad contributions of the muslim culture to the constitution, the civil war, WWI or WWII, etc. but nonetheless he made a historically ignorant statement.

He also said something in his book to the effect that he will choose to side with muslims if the "winds shift" or something to that effect.

He has appointed muslims to cabinet positions and he's taken a very harsh stance on Israel (while Napolitano finds Chrisitians who believe in the return of Jesus to be enemies of the state).

That he has a cultural affinity doesn't mean he isn't a political animal and is comfortable in the US with liberal policies or not being able to pull out of a war started before him without great disruption.

I find all of this to be very relevant to the Holy Ground as our nation shifts from a Christian nation, to a secular post Christian nation and as we begin to drift from our traditional allies to being "open" to countries that are despotic.

Certainnly also a place for discussion by my liberal friends who have shouted "separation of church and state" for 10 years who have now, apparently been deathly quiet over Obama's overtures to a religion that has at least a "small" percentage (millions?) who express approval for jihad.

Is Obama above reproach? Or only republican presidents or potential candiates that are open to have their religion mocked and discredited?

And by the way, Jews should be free to live anywhere (including Iran, Iraq, Syria, Lybia, etc.) The arab nations practice a form of segragation and apartheid that would have made the south and South Africa green with envy. Jews (and Christians) are 2nd hand citizens and can have their properties and lives taken from them at a whim. To say that Jews can't build apartments in JERUSALEM is horribly anti semetic and historically ignorant.
3/28/10 11:51 PM
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the rooster
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by the way, the founder of Hamas' son is now a born again Christian. He now risks his life to expose how the religion of peace was presented to him and other children. google and learn.
3/29/10 3:38 AM
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jimmy23
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I froze it

 the thread was full of  political accusations, and not very accurate or insightful ones  at that - more like propaganda. And this continued as more people posted 

this is the HOLY ground, it is for discussion of religious topics. While there is a grey area where some political discussion may be  appropriate, that thread wasnt in the grey area.

take it up with a higher mod or kirik if you would like. I made a judgment call and stand by it


3/29/10 7:14 AM
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Joe Ray
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" There seems to be a political afinity to is muslim culture. He was in an islamic country when he declared that the US was not a Christian nation but may even be more rightly declared a muslim nation."

No he didn't say that. You are grasping at straws.

"He has appointed muslims to cabinet positions"

So what? Muslims can't be Americans?

"and he's taken a very harsh stance on Israel "

About time too. Even General Petraeus has stated that Israeli settlement building is putting American and allied troops lives at risk in middle eastern warzones and disrupting America's trategic interests in the region.

The fact is that the only thing that shows Obama has a cultural affinity towards Islam is his name.

You and your ilk have arguably a far greater cultural affinity towards Islam with your literalist interpretation of your holy scriptures, religiosity, social conservatism, hatred of science and love of superstition, all of which thrive amongst the religious right in America and throughout the Islamic world.


3/29/10 8:24 AM
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the rooster
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Jimmy, when did you become a mod??!?!?!

What a joke.

There has always been an element of political and religious intersection...whether it was Pharoah, Xerxes, Herod, etc.

The entire book of revelations deals with a world economic and political system ran by a world leader.

Where were you when George Bush and Cheney were discussed here every day?

One thing that's clear is that you have no real context to be a mod.
3/29/10 8:28 AM
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the rooster
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Joe Ray, I'll respond to your tolerant, love filled response shortly.

But as usual, you are also wrong and so politically and religiously loyal to your secular left mindset that anyone who represents it is beyond reproach in your estimation.

Hope I didn't cross the line by using the world "politically" and risk getting my thread frozen.

Jimmy, again, your censorship is ridiculous and nebulous which is what you get with the left. Promises of tolerances followed by censorship.

I will back up the connection between the political and religious shortly and back up what I said with facts, not propaganda which is a completely false accusation that you made.

By the way, if Obama did have a cultural affinity or was a mulsim...SO WHAT?! It would be interesting, a first, something we should discuss on here, including perceived benefits or negativities, but what did you do...freeze it.

Again, I'm stunned after 10 years of posting and reading some of the most vitriolic crap about my beliefs that this is what you froze?!!?

By the way, where's all the reasonable mods? Has this forum died?
3/29/10 9:37 AM
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the rooster
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Ok, Jimmy I want to first address your reasons for freezing the thread. You said, " the thread was full of political accusations, and not very accurate or insightful ones at that - more like propaganda. And this continued as more people posted."

What exactly is "political accusations". I stated, "It seems to me that if Obama is not a muslim, he shares a cultural affinity and has an affinity to this religion."

This was the springboard for my discussion. As I stated above, politics and religion often intercede. In the thousands of years of recorded human history, they are often in the forefront of not only reasons for war and subjection, but also for enlightenment and peace.

It seems to me that Washington's religion was important to the context of his framing of political views. As was the other founders and Lincoln.

Certainly the national press thought Kennedy's catholic background mattered. Reagan's more evangelical views (and Bushs') were also important to people on the righ and the left because these ideas are critical to the framework for how these individuals appoint and manage the govt.

Certainly the religious framework (or for that matter the lack of one for a securalist or marxist, say like Lenin or Stalin) for those who hold the keys to both our economic engines as well as our weapons of warfare are critical.

I assumed anyone commenting on that thread would have certainly had enough of a religious and political background to understand the context.

If David Duke was elected president, don't you think his ties to the Klan...a religious and political group, should matter?!!?

Islam is a theopolitical belief and so if someone is a muslim, i want to know how moderated their views are or if at the end of the day, they seek to impose their way of life on the political system. The intersection of religion and politics.

then you said, "this is the HOLY ground, it is for discussion of religious topics. While there is a grey area where some political discussion may be appropriate, that thread wasnt in the grey area."

Again, you seem to ignore the very nature of the bible, the Koran, the Torah, the rise of secularism and govt etc. These all deal with theo political forces.

Look at Mohammed and how he converted. He converted by the sword and took over entire countries in spreading islam.

Certainly there is a tie between religion and politics.

And the relevance I was suggesting was the way in which Obama treated religious leaders (muslims) from theocracies vs his treatment of a historical ally who is surrounded by those who wish to drive them into the sea and have promised genocide.

You find no religious relevance in this disscussion!?!
3/29/10 10:07 AM
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the rooster
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Now Joe Ray...I said, "There seems to be a political afinity to is muslim culture. He was in an islamic country when he declared that the US was not a Christian nation but may even be more rightly declared a muslim nation."

you: No he didn't say that. You are grasping at straws.

me: Ok, let's state what he said EXACTLY, since I was writing from memory.

Obama said we are not a Christian nation:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/04/06/obama-us-not-a-christian_n_183772.html

which certainly the context of the nation was deeply influence by Judeo Christian ethics, that so much so, that many early patriarchs of our country (presidents, supreme court judges, etc.) all declared our rich Christian heritage.

Then he said, Sept 1, 2009:

-- President Barack Obama on Tuesday praised American Muslims for enriching the nation's culture at a dinner to celebrate the Islamic holy month of Ramadan.

"The contribution of Muslims to the United States are too long to catalog because Muslims are so interwoven into the fabric of our communities and our country," Obama said at the iftar, the dinner that breaks the holiday's daily fast.

The president joined Cabinet secretaries, members of the diplomatic corps and lawmakers to pay tribute to what he called "a great religion and its commitment to justice and progress."


Finally, he said, "In an interview with Laura Haim on Canal Plus, a French television station, Mr. Obama noted that the United States also could be considered as "one of the largest Muslim countries in the world."

So, yes, Obama has down played our Christian heritage, he has also played up islamic contributions to American society and stressed that based on numbers we would be on of the largest muslim countries in the world.

I think this is very interesting and certainly worth a discussion on the holy ground. I want to know what and how much of Islam he finds beneficial and I'd like to know for those who support him where he gets his facts.

Was islam part of the american story when the pilgrams landed? Where they signees to the declaration of Independece or the constitution? Bill of Rights? Did they fight in the revolutionary war? How about the civil war?

Nope, in fact one understated story is the current slave trade going on in muslim countries today.

How about during the civil rights era? marching arm in arm with Martin Luther. Nope.

Part of women's suffrage? Nope, never been real strong advocates of women.

How about WWII? Nope, they were allied with Adolf Hitler.

So Joe Ray, not only did I not make anything up, but what I said was accurate and Obama's RELIGIOUS VIEWS (or potential lack there of) are as important as Romney's Mormon views, Palin's Assembly of God views, etc.

Our world views matter and his seem to be distorted and impacting foreign policy.

Again, I'm not even saying Obama is a practicing muslim. And if he was, your job to me would be, on a religious forum, to ask and answer the question of "Who cares". That would be interesting. Does it matter in America what someone's religion is? Does it impact their ability to lead? To judge? Am I being a bigot for bringing it out. Does he share anything theocratic views or does he oppose the treatment of muslims to jews, Christins, women, the slave trade, discussions of genocide, etc?

then I said, "He has appointed muslims to cabinet positions"

and you said, "So what? Muslims can't be Americans?"

me: Good, that's a starting point for discussion, not for freezing a thread. Sure, Muslims can be Americans. Muslims can run for office. Muslims can be appointed for office.

Being American has collectively meant something in the past though and I want to know if his appointees share that view or if they hate America and want to reshape and rebuild it in a very distinct and different way.

finally I said, "and he's taken a very harsh stance on Israel "

you: About time too. Even General Petraeus has stated that Israeli settlement building is putting American and allied troops lives at risk in middle eastern warzones and disrupting America's trategic interests in the region."

me: by building apartments for jews in jerusalem? So jews shouldn't live in certain places and certainly not in Jerusalem, their historical capital?

you: The fact is that the only thing that shows Obama has a cultural affinity towards Islam is his name.

me: not true, see his references and appointments above. That's just factually incorrect. Now whether it affects his political governance is a whole other topic but that's just not true.

you: You and your ilk have arguably a far greater cultural affinity towards Islam with your literalist interpretation of your holy scriptures, religiosity, social conservatism, hatred of science and love of superstition, all of which thrive amongst the religious right in America and throughout the Islamic world.

me: Now, that's just not true. See Christians believe that Jesus Christ died for our sins and Muslims view that as anathama. We are 2nd class citizens to Muslims. In fact a recent story in Pakistan tells of a Christian man and women who would not convert. The man was burned alive in front of his 5 and 7 year old chilren while the woman was raped...in front of their kids!!!

http://faithfreedom.org/print/7853

Our holy books are vastly different in their view of God, man, the nature of man, redemption, etc. From the Christian ethos has come notions of brotherhood, hope, faith and charity, freedom, charitiable organizations and institutes of higher learning. In fact, the science you esteem was built by Christian men whose faith and science were harmonious. So you are wrong.

In fact, radical islam has always strangly found an ally in THE LEFT. It was the national SOCIALIST party (nazi's) and it has been the support of secular marxist countries that radicals have always felt closest to. Why is that Joe Ray? is it their vehement hatred for all things Jewish? Is it their collectivist statist desires? is it their subjection of Christians to 2nd class status and slavery?

It seems that secularism has it's own brand of "scripture" it's own high priest etc and has found a friend and ally with islamo fascist.
3/29/10 10:08 AM
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the rooster
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facts are stubborn things aren't they?
3/29/10 10:19 PM
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IBI
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I wouldn't have frozen the thread myself, but I do think it would be better suited to the OG.

Partisan political bickering and comments in support or condemnation of your president's speeches and policies are probably more in keeping with the OG than the HG.
3/29/10 10:27 PM
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jimmy23
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"Jimmy, again, your censorship is ridiculous and nebulous which is what you get with the left. Promises of tolerances followed by censorship."

what in the world are you talking about?


look, you want to engage in political discussion in this thread, go for it


I am a mod, and until I am not one I will make the calls that seem appropriate. I wont let this sub forum degenerate to the level of discussion of the OG, or show much tolerance for politcally themed threads that are, in essence, partisan wrangling.


There are plenty of other places on this website for that sort of interaction 
3/29/10 11:59 PM
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the rooster
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IBI, I do appreciate your moderation and you are a calm voice for your beliefs.

Jimmy, when did you become a moderator? I'm just curious.

did you miss all the anti Bus posts by Joe Ray?

Let me ask you again, slowly...is religion and politics often intersecting? Historically and today and does someone's belief system or lack thereof affect their world view? Yes or no?
3/30/10 4:32 AM
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Joe Ray
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I do stand slightly corrected. I had forgotten he had mentioned that America could be called one of the more populous muslim nations. I forgot the right wingnut going ballistic over that one.

It is obvious he talking about in the sense that America is also one of the "most populous Mexican" or "most populous black nations". Newsflash, he isn;t actually stating that america was founded on Islamic principles and laws and is currently governed by Sharia.

And technically he is correct on America not being a Christian nation. It is a secular nation that does not rest on the institution of any one religion, your constitution sees to that. Of course it was founded and built by Christian men and women and has a strong Christian heritage and culture, but America is not a Christian nation in the same way that Saudi Arabia is a Muslim nation. America is not an explicitly theocratic state, all religions are welcome there.

"-- President Barack Obama on Tuesday praised American Muslims for enriching the nation's culture at a dinner to celebrate the Islamic holy month of Ramadan.

"The contribution of Muslims to the United States are too long to catalog because Muslims are so interwoven into the fabric of our communities and our country," Obama said at the iftar, the dinner that breaks the holiday's daily fast.

The president joined Cabinet secretaries, members of the diplomatic corps and lawmakers to pay tribute to what he called "a great religion and its commitment to justice and progress." "

Well I personally wouldn't call Islam a force of progress and justice but The POTUSA has to address such a constituentcy of his country and say the odd thing to make them feel good.

But I notice a trend in all of this. You put great store in what Obama says. You take his word as gospel truth.

In that case, you must also believe 100% his myriad of speeches and statement extolling the virtues of American ideals, of Christianity, of Judaism, of Israel, and of all the good that Christianity and America have done for the world.

You must also take it as gospel truth when he talks about his love of Jesus and his commitment to the Christian faith.

He has talked at length about these things. If you are unaware of this then I cannot be at fault for your extremely selctive hearing.

Now I've no intention of continuing arguing this with you. It's been done to death.

Now the US is currently engaged in two massive nation building projects in middle eastern Islamic countries, and also has military bases in Saudi Arabia as well as extensive strategic interests all throughout the middle east.

It makes complete sense for the POTUS to show respect and offer friendship to the religions of these areas, as Bush did and other US presidents did. It would just be completely bad statemanship and leadership for Obama or someone to come out publically and say "Islam is evil and all Muslims are scum".

I'll finish my post later. If you are really interested in discussing this I suggest you take it to the OG.
3/30/10 6:20 AM
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jimmy23
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"Jimmy, when did you become a moderator? I'm just curious."

Ive been a mod here for over a year, maybe two years  now

"did you miss all the anti Bus posts by Joe Ray?"

that is a big reason why I froze the thread

"Let me ask you again, slowly...is religion and politics often intersecting? Historically and today and does someone's belief system or lack thereof affect their world view? Yes or no?"

l have answered the question about politics and belief systems, and the intersection of them, in my first post on this thread


let me be very clear here - we arent going to argue. I made a call, and it wasnt all about you ( a good mantra for all of us in this world)  -Joe Ray was doing the same thing.  This is my last post on this thread, you guys can politic it up all you want, on this thread.

My policy in the future will be same on other threads. IF you disagree with my approach, then appeal to a higher mod or to Kirik






 
3/30/10 7:12 AM
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Joe Ray
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So to continue, you are for some reason peeved that Obama has shown respect to the Islamic world and faith through a handful of statements and speeches, just as Bush and other presidents have done. I have no idea why this irks you to such a high degree, considering you where a true believe in Bush's plans to remake the middle east ie. Islamic world, in the colours of the American political system, so it makes rather a lot of sense to make friends with the people you intend you intend 'spread democracy and freedom' to.

me: by building apartments for jews in jerusalem? So jews shouldn't live in certain places and certainly not in Jerusalem, their historical capital?


You may not agree with the Palestinians right to any of the land there but the vast majority of the world does and that part of Jerusalem is officially known as occupied territory.

I'm not interested in debating the merits of each sides rights to the lands in that region, again if this is something you wish to argue please make a thread on the OG or political ground.

In the words of General Petraeus:

"“The enduring hostilities between Israel and some of its neighbours present distinct challenges to our ability to advance our interests ... Israeli-Palestinian tensions often flare into violence and large-scale armed confrontations. The conflict foments anti-American sentiment, [because of] a perception of US favouritism for Israel. Arab anger over the Palestinian question limits the strength and depth of US partnerships with governments and peoples in the [region] and weakens the legitimacy of moderate regimes in the Arab world. Meanwhile, Al-Qaeda and other militant groups exploit that anger to mobilise support. The conflict also gives Iran influence in the Arab world through its clients, Lebanese Hezbollah and Hamas.”


All this is self-evidently true. Which is why Obama was completely within his rights to snub Netanyahu, who was obviously gloating in his perceieved humiliation of your own president and his cabinet and thus country.



me: Now, that's just not true. See Christians believe that Jesus Christ died for our sins and Muslims view that as anathama.......
Our holy books are vastly different in their view of God, man, the nature of man, redemption, etc. From the Christian ethos has come notions of brotherhood, hope, faith and charity, freedom, charitiable organizations and institutes of higher learning.


I am well aware of the theological differences between your respective faiths. They do not mask the similarities between your religion and theirs and thus your culture and theirs.



In fact, radical islam has always strangly found an ally in THE LEFT. It was the national SOCIALIST party (nazi's) and it has been the support of secular marxist countries that radicals have always felt closest to. Why is that Joe Ray? is it their vehement hatred for all things Jewish? Is it their collectivist statist desires? is it their subjection of Christians to 2nd class status and slavery?

It seems that secularism has it's own brand of "scripture" it's own high priest etc and has found a friend and ally with islamo fascist.


My goodness that's quite the nonsenical rant. Please take this to the OG or politicalground.
3/30/10 9:31 PM
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the rooster
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Joe Ray, I'm not sure if you want me to respond to your responses or not, since you have asked to move it to the other ground a couple of times. Don't want to go there really because 1) we can control the discussion better then having a bunch of people jumping in with even less civility then we have here and 2) because much of this is *religious* in nature despite being played out politically. Islam is a theopolitical system. Israel has deep roots to their biblical homeland and in order to understand the conflict, as well as the claims and finally hope for solutions lie in understanding the world view and philosophical AND religious assumptions they have.

you said earlier, "Do you support Obama's assassination of countless Muslims since he became president? Does his ruthless murdering of suspected Muslim terrorists make you believe Obama has a "cultural affinity" with Islam?"

I'm just curious because you were very anti Bush. You have indicated at various times a sort of liberal Christian to agnostic view. Do you feel the same rage and disgust for Obama for what you claim above (assasination, murder, etc.)

Also, all these references by Obama and christianity (that you cite) islam, etc...does it bother you as someone who has repeatedly pronounced your committment to the non constitutional liberal wall of "separation and state"? You are committed to that ideal and all of these expression and involvement in islamic "stuff"...does that violate your notion of church and state?

you:
You may not agree with the Palestinians right to any of the land there but the vast majority of the world does and that part of Jerusalem is officially known as occupied territory.

me: ? the vast majority of the world did nothing while jews were cremated in concentration camps. The vast majority of the world believes killing unborn babies is a choice. So? Jerusalem is the historical capital of Jerusalem and was occupied BY THE ROMANS, then various groups including the Ottaman Turks, the Brits, etc. The "world" gave them that land in the Balfour Declaration in which they were ingnomiously attacked (right after enduring the holocaust) by their surrounding "neighbors".

Having won back their capital, they are hardly occupying it anymore then texans and californians are occupying Mexican land.

So, I guess the question for you, and I'll make it "religious"...is it moral to ask the Jews to not live in any city or country (Iran, Syria, Iraq, Egypt, Europe, US, Russia) including Jerusalem?

What makes that anymore compelling then appealing to morality for segragation in the south or in South Africa?!!?

Jews are already viewed as 2nd hand citizens in the Middle East and are subjected to anti semitism (growing) around the world, and now they cannot build apartments to accomodate their growing families in JERUSALEM?

That sounds rascist to me my friend.

I have an irish brother in law living in Austin. Should have have the right to buy a home as his family expands in a prior mexican territory?

As you can see, this makes no sense.

All of Israel's neighbors (with maybe the exception of Egypt) DON'T EVEN RECOGNIZE ISRAEL as a nation. Iran is promising genocide, Hamas and PLO's charter demands driving them into the sea and they have the geographical land mass of rhode Island. How is it moral (religous question) to insist they cannot build apartments in jerusalem (or for that matter, in Syria or New York or anywhere else?!!?).

Finally, do you think if Israel gave back all their historical land won "fair and square" defending their very lives, do you think that the middle east would settle into peace, no more jihad, no more fighting with Israel, no more revolution and jihad in moscow, spain, london, US?

Unbelieveable. Naive? Purposely ignoring?! I'm at a total loss here.
4/1/10 11:43 AM
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770mdm
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The fact this thread has gone this far my comment isn't probably needed but I didn't like the idea a thread of Rooster's being frozen, one of the Holygrounds most articulate and vocal contributors.  He should be given the benefit of the doubt if he seems to be getting off idea of the HolyGround.  But my 2cents here are...

As long as political discussions are religiously geared they should absolutely be allowed.  How else are we able to articulate the pro's and con's of our leaders?  What kind of country we want?  One might think the Torah is purely a spiritual manefesto but it is also a constitution of which the entire American politico is modeled after. 

http://www.createdequalthebook.com/

The Political Ground is all about Lib's vs Republicans The OG is about anything under the sun but we are discussing the religious perspectives and to us all perspectives are religious.  To get to the bottom of it all there is a lot of digression but ultimately we see everything through religious eyes. 

4/1/10 1:15 PM
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770mdm
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Shmuley Boteach:
This Monday, President Barack Obama hosted his second White House Seder. As a Jewish American I am grateful to the president for highlighting the festival of Jewish emancipation, but given a choice, I would readily forgo the White House Manischewitz in exchange for an end to the bitter herbs the president is serving Israel. Publicly shunning Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu and privately berating him is not going to be forgiven because of gefilte fish and matza balls. If you want to show American Jewry some respect, Mr. President, then stop treating the elected leader of the Jewish state as if you were Pharaoh and he was Moses.

I received my own lesson this week about how to treat those with whom you sharply disagree. I was in Italy to promote the Italian translation of one of my books. Gary Krupp, the New York-based Jewish papal knight whom I had sharply criticized for defending Pius XII, went out of his way to get me invited to the Vatican to see documents relating to Pius’s pontificate.

When I arrived, just one week before Good Friday, although the Vatican was under siege with press reports of pedophile priests, Monsignor Livio Poloniato, who works in the cardinal secretary of state’s office, gave me hours of his time to show me around. Here I was, an unrelenting critic for over a decade of a pope whom the Holy See is seeking to canonize. Yet the high-ranking priests I met could not have been friendlier. Everyone I met showed kindness and warmth. The visit didn’t change my view of Pius XII, whom I continue to view as guilty of the foremost moral omission of the twentieth century in refusing to even once speak out against the Holocaust. But it did get me thinking.

I contrasted the warm welcome accorded a papal critic with President Obama’s disdainful treatment of Netanyahu. If the reports are true and Obama got up and left in the middle of their meeting, derisively telling him he was going to have dinner with his family and adding “get back to me if you have anything new,” then as an American I am ashamed of our president’s behavior. As a Jew I am scandalized by his contempt.  Yes, having dinner with your kids is important, but to use your kids as an excuse to treat a guest like garbage is repellant.

And all this because the president so readily dismisses the Jewish insistence on holding on to a capital we established 3,000 years ago and have prayed to return to thrice daily ever since the Romans ejected us in 70 CE.

There was a time, not long ago, when, while disagreeing with many of the president’s policies, I found him inspiring. Here was a man who never had the love of a father, yet who overcame immense obstacles to emerge temperate, committed to the common good and a devoted husband and father. As a lover of great oratory, I was moved by his eloquence and passion. I penned a much-circulated column praising his decision to stop using the name Barrie and return to his given name, Barack. I wrote that all Jews – who so often hide their identities by changing their names – should learn pride from our president.

Sadly, I am now beginning to question Obama’s character. Am I to look up to a president who treats Netanyahu like a Mexican cartel kingpin, refusing to greet him publicly, share a press conference or have a single picture taken with him? Is our president ignorant of basic manners?

Perhaps we should be grateful that the president even allowed Netanyahu into the country. Perhaps  during his next meeting with King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia, Obama can skip the bow and inquire instead as to how to treat a guest.

Remember the way the president treated the Dalai Lama this past February? Afraid of upsetting the Chinese, Obama similarly refused to publicly greet a fellow Nobel Peace laureate whom the world regards as its foremost humanitarian. No pictures, no press conference, no public welcome. To top it off, he made the leader of Tibet leave through a staff kitchen entrance strewn with giant bags of garbage!

All this reinforces my growing suspicion that Obama not only lacks a commitment to a moral foreign policy but, when you cross him, even a commitment to basic courtesy.

I hope that as the president read the words of the Haggada this year he noticed the very last line. It’s just four words, and it’s something the Jews were saying for 600 years before Islam came into existence.

“Next year in Jerusalem!”
4/1/10 6:52 PM
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the rooster
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amen and amen
4/2/10 5:56 PM
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zealot66
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 I understand both sides. Just a random political thread should be on the OG. The one about immigrants started off with religion but I even felt I went to far under our rules but I felt the need to at least answer the questions brought up. 

However, alot of us known eachother for years and want to talk to people we know, not the thousands on the OG intervening. 
4/5/10 1:15 AM
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truthisalive
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you guys are are getting all political...lol.
4/5/10 5:20 PM
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zealot66
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 Shuld I freeze this thread for never forget Im a moderator too...........
4/7/10 2:00 PM
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Ridgeback
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 I believe K-dub was made a mod and he jokes about raping people and their wives.  Don't except to much in the way of mod quality or fairness on this forum.  
4/7/10 5:52 PM
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zealot66
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 I try. Its been slow here for several months.
4/8/10 2:11 AM
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jimmy23
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 I am a very low quality and unfair moderator

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