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Cigars, Beer & Poker Ground >> how to be a tag 16-12 vs 14-10

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3/30/10 4:14 PM
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cadeswallows
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just trying to figure out what range of hands will have me runnin at specific vp and pfrs. lets say i want to be a nitty tag and play 12-8 vs lossening it up a bit and being like a 18-14. not laggy, i realize that but im just trying to figure out what hands will put me in certain ranges. anybody have any suggestions.

i have pokerstove, should i just go in and put in like 12% for pfr and incorporate those hands based on position?? like early middle late. obv. having the bulk of those hands for late pos.

any advice???
3/31/10 1:11 AM
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cadeswallows
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yeah good question, maybe i should ve specified. but im talkin full ring.
3/31/10 10:54 AM
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Spuds Buckley
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I play FR too, I would say it isn't just playing a certain hand per se, but just widening your range in position, CO and Button mainly.
3/31/10 4:59 PM
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cadeswallows
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spuds i hear ya and totally agree with you. but im doing this for multiple reasons.

1. bc i met a guy who is coaching me and he told me to.
2. will better allow me to see what kind of hands people are playin and what there ranges are
3. will give me an idea what hands to play from what pos.
4. for the limit im playin i would like to run about 16-12
5. starting as a tag and developing a solid fundamental game will provide a solid base and allow me to open up down the road and be more lagy.
6.calling or folding to shorties allins based on ranges.
7. pokertracker HUD
8. etc

so basically these are some of my reasons. the guy that i fell into knows way more about poketracker and how to use it than just about anyone in the country. so i do what he says. he actually builds specific huds for people and 2 plus 2 is talking to him about becoming a coach so im lucky enuff to be his guinea pig (sp?). its humbling when you talk to a person that thinks way deeper about the game than you can imagine and understand how to exploit all the players at the table good or bad.
3/31/10 5:03 PM
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cadeswallows
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the dude constantly makes me realize how much i dont know about the game and hes not even a big balla, he plays a hundred which i think is the same limit u play on tilt.
3/31/10 6:24 PM
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billid
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Sounds like you'd want to work on opening your range just a little bit at a time so you can get used to it. If you're a complete rock playing a 12-8 game regularly it'll take some time opening up. If you get suggestions on hand ranges and jump right into them, I think you'll drown post flop without a lot of guidance.

You will also open up your 3bet range from the CO and BTN to LAG players from mid positions and your 3bet range from the SB and BB vs people who are stealing often from the CO and BTN. This will also include opening your unopened pfr to steal from the CO and BTN and your 4bet range vs players who are 3betting you light from the SB and BB when you try to steal. All the stats will expose who is who as you learn poker tracker hud, I suggest getting Holdem Manager.. imo way better and this is the general consensus online.

I haven't used Poker Tracker in a while so I don't know if they've updated their options but Holdem Manager has a section where you can click off PFR, 3bet, call etc. from every position and it highlights your hand range. You can then get a clear picture of where you need to open up..

Let us know what your hand ranges are.

What are you raising with from EP? only 99-AA,AK? MP calling your low pocket pairs and adding AQ, AJ, KQ to your PFR then opening from the CO and BTN up to QJsuited? Giving up the blinds to most of the steals unless you have a pocket pair, AK, AQ, KQ? Calling from the CO and BTN with suited connectors.... 3betting only with AA KK AK and really don't know what to do with AK post flop in a 3bet pot if you don't hit or fold to a 4bet preflop in fear of being up against AA,KK? Set mining with low pocket pairs playing fit or fold on the flop?

That's what 12/8 sounds like to me.

btw, I might have the positions wrong for FR cause I'm used to 6max
3/31/10 9:26 PM
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Spuds Buckley
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cade, btwn did you ever get the email I responded to you?

I want to answer your question in this thread but 1. it sounds like your coach is much better than me, so listen to him 2. I'm not really sure how but I guess I'll try

From 100NL and below on FR, I would open raise with any pocket pair from any position. Getting 3 bet Pre rarely happens below 200 unless they got the goods (vs the average player).

I have other thoughts, but it is mainly position dependent. If there is a raiser in front of me, I will let hands go, but if I open I will open wider if that makes sense. I.E. say I'm in MP with KJ or something, if EP raises I will fold, but if folded to me I might raise 3XBB. Is this the kind of answer you are lookng for? Or give some examples and we can say how we'd play it
4/1/10 1:30 AM
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cadeswallows
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thx for info. i shall reread it and respond tomorow. im tired and getting ready for bed.

i think it will be easiest to pull up pokerstove and see what 18% or 7% or whatever looks like. i think the main point of it is just to get an overall idea what kinds of hands people are playin in order to put them in a range based on vpip and pfr.

you typed a few things i found intersting id like to discuss later.

btw dont sell ur self short. ive seen u play on tilt and between that, bonuses and rakeback ur doing quite well. especially since the economy sux and the games are tougher.

thx, later
4/1/10 2:38 AM
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Ze Dano
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hey guys, I'm fairly new to the game...what do you mean by 16-12 or 14-10 or 12-8??
4/1/10 12:10 PM
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billid
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Ze Dano - hey guys, I'm fairly new to the game...what do you mean by 16-12 or 14-10 or 12-8??



Ze Dano,

Most people use hand history tracking software. Either Poker Tracker or preferably Holdem Manager. It has piles and piles of stats that show how you're playing from every position, situation, etc. The most common ones you'll see that gives a good idea of how a person is playing is your VPP/PFR standing for Voluntary Put in Pot and Pre-Flop Raise. It gives a percentage of how often somebody is calling and raising pre-plop.

So 14/8 would be a really low number. Somebody who is playing extremely tight. players around 18/15 to 22/18 might be regarded as opening a decent range. then you get guys playing 33/25 which are very aggressive gambling type players who like to see a lot of flops all the way to 40+/10 who are complete calling stations and the odd 50+/25+ who is a complete maniac playing every hand, raising and reraising for no reason, bluffing a lot of pots and stacking off light.
4/1/10 1:42 PM
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Ze Dano
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Thanks billid. I'm not an internet player myself (save for "play money" to learn Omaha and different games), but I do understand what you mean by this.
4/1/10 3:21 PM
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Spuds Buckley
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billid - 
Ze Dano - hey guys, I'm fairly new to the game...what do you mean by 16-12 or 14-10 or 12-8??





So 14/8 would be a really low number. Somebody who is playing extremely tight. players around 18/15 to 22/18 might be regarded as opening a decent range. then you get guys playing 33/25 which are very aggressive gambling type players who like to see a lot of flops all the way to 40+/10 who are complete calling stations and the odd 50+/25+ who is a complete maniac playing every hand, raising and reraising for no reason, bluffing a lot of pots and stacking off light.


14/8 on FR vs/ 14/8 on 6 max is very different though. So ZD make sure what game you are referring to
4/2/10 8:32 PM
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cadeswallows
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no its not matt. hes an older guy thats really cool and has elevated my game immensely. (not sayin much though).

as for the kj, yeah obviously thats solid to fold if someone opened, but if its folded around and ur in late pos then go ahead and throw in a raze. that is positionally aware poker. this guy has got me doing things like lookin at there steal % and if its 40-60 almost regardless of ur holding you can profitably 3 bet em.

and if someone has a 3 bet of 8 or so, u know there doing it light so u can 4 bet them and then that becomes profitable as long as ur bet size is correct.

another quick little example is say u raze in late pos and a short stak shoves it all in. based off of his stats, im learning what hands i can profitably call with and what i need to fold. for example lets say hes a 10/10. then if he shoves, u have to have jj or better to call. but if hes 12 or higher u can go TT or AQ. the example isnt exactly right as im still learning so dont quote me but this is the kind of crap this guy is helping me with.

im basically learning hud based poker. he even downloaded like half a million hands onto pokertracker for me. so im no longer going into a gunfight w a knife. im not baggin on anybody but its amazing all the supernovas and people that i feared are break even players. it basically opened up a world of info for me.

i also used to just want to bumhunt and stay away from the "awesome regs" now i try take advantage of the guys playing 24 tables. its a little higher variance tryin to be the boogie man but i do believe it is a solid way to play.

im tryin to play solid abc tag poker while occasionally incorporating plays like stealing blinds, playin in pos. 3 betting and 4 betting.

u said 3 betting rarely happens below 200 but at stars as low as 50, i see 3 betting going on all the time. its usually fold or raze.

i play full ring and have stopped playing 22-55 it "seems" most people are around break even from early so i quit playing them so i can focus on other stuff. actually im a slight loser w 22-44 from early. but that could also be just how i play them, which could be poor. its just not worth the headache.

take care guys good luck at the tables.
4/21/10 2:29 PM
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Retard
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 ndfs
4/22/10 3:00 AM
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cadeswallows
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ndfs????????

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