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JKD UnderGround >> Discovery Channel JKD show


4/18/10 10:34 AM
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John Frankl
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Edited: 04/18/10 10:40 AM
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Sitting in a hotel room in Osaka and a Bruce Lee documentary comes on.

Wow! This guy had tons of influence. Ray Leonard, LL Cool J, Undercover Brother, and many others. I am impressed by his influence.

The people they show actually practicing "JKD", however, are pretty lame.

***Whoah, now they have Dana White and Shannon Lee talking about Bruce beeing the father of MMA! Funny that all of his first, second, and third generation students waited around hitting the wooden dummy until Rorian showed up.
4/19/10 7:43 AM
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Kai Tremeche
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John Frankl - 

***Whoah, now they have Dana White and Shannon Lee talking about Bruce beeing the father of MMA! Funny that all of his first, second, and third generation students waited around hitting the wooden dummy until Rorian showed up.


Not entirely true, right? When did Inosanto start BJJ?
4/19/10 9:58 AM
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Paul Hopkins
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How long after UFC 1 did Enter the Dragon come out?

4/19/10 10:42 AM
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John Frankl
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Edited: 04/19/10 10:44 AM
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I believe Dan Inosanto began his training somewhere around 1994-5. I was at the academy the year before that, dividing my time between there and Rickson's, and he had not begun yet.

The following year Marc Denny got him hooked up with the Machados. I think he was reluctant to start because the UFC/Gracie challenge put him off. Obviously the Machados made him feel more at ease.



But you are right. Dan Inosanto's excellent philosophy led people like Paul Vunak and Erik Paulsen to get into BJJ much earlier. But somehow it did not have that same effect on the vast majority of his followers until they followed him into it.

Enter the Dragon came out some time after its senior prom. It really shocked a lot of straight people.
4/19/10 10:56 AM
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Kai Tremeche
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John: Understood, so really it was Rorion.
4/19/10 8:34 PM
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Demitrius Barbito
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My brother and I were training with Marc Eccard (brown belt under Rickson) and Rickson himself in 93. Most people still hadn't clicked into the BJJ at that point.

Bruce Lee had a run in with BJJ at one point in his career and brushed it off. Bruce was a bit of a nut job when it came to martial arts. He thought he knew everything. Plus he was an actor from his childhood and everything had to be very "flashy".

Bruce Lee was just like any other genius. He was influenced by his own biases and emotional preferences. So we don't throw the baby out with the bathwater when it comes to him BUT we need to be very speculative with all things Bruce Lee. We are talking about dated technology and events that occurred 25+ years ago.

Demi (everything is tried but nothing is true) Barbito
4/19/10 8:36 PM
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Joe Maffei
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What was rorion?
4/19/10 10:13 PM
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Paul Hopkins
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John Frankl - 4
Enter the Dragon came out some time after its senior prom. It really shocked a lot of straight people.

Brilliant!

4/20/10 12:55 AM
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BEEF & CHEESE
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"Bruce Lee had a run in with BJJ at one point in his career and brushed it off."

-Got a source for this?
4/20/10 7:57 AM
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Joe Maffei
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What made him Brilliant in your opinion?
I'm lost, sorry bro, what do you mean. Him starting BJJ in US? in business? Hooking up woth Matrowitze? what?
4/20/10 8:14 AM
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Kai Tremeche
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Joe: The fact that he was willing to have his style and family put it on the line against other martial arts and make money from basically teaching a fighting version of judo.
4/20/10 9:25 AM
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Joe Maffei
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Yeah but that was his Dad who started that years before and from what I understad his Dad was against coming to US and letting out the family style, and as preditct by his dad the style would be used against them...And it has.If sime one is brilliant it was his Dad.....
4/20/10 10:19 AM
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Demitrius Barbito
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First of all Bruce used to go train with Gene LeBell BUT the grappling never took hold in what Bruce was doing. It was a footnote at best. He didn't get the "big picture" because he had invested so much time in striking (wing chun and western boxing) and he wanted to exploit it. Judo, BJJ, Greco isn't exciting on camera while beating up thugs in Italian restraunts in Hong Kong!

There was always the anecdote of Bruce Lee on the set of Green Hornet or some other project where a BJJ guy grappled with him and wound up mounting him. Bruce brushed off the incident. NOW, this is an anecdote BUT the Gene LeBell stuff is real.

Demi (the anti hero) Barbito
4/20/10 10:28 AM
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Paul Hopkins
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He lived 33 years.
4/21/10 9:05 PM
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Demitrius Barbito
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Paul,

How are you?

Demi
4/21/10 9:22 PM
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nowaydo
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I know. People pretend Gene Lebell never existed. I remember a Blackbelt Magazine with Judo Gene trying to send the message "Wrestling is a martial art". Crazy!!!

What I heard is Bruce thought that grappling wouldn't sell on the big screen.

But almost ALL of his big fight scenes end with a submission hold. I think he tried to send subtle message.
4/21/10 10:41 PM
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Kai Tremeche
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Nowaydo: Except for Enter the Dragon.

I'd love to see that Blackbelt Magazine. The one problem with Gene is he was trying to sell flash, instead of selling the fact that he could fight.
4/21/10 11:10 PM
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ReneH
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I had a copy, perhaps I still do in my collection. To lazy to check.

Last I heard from Hartsell was that Lee had incorportated about 20 (sometimes he would also say 28 moves)into his JKD by the time of his death. Lee felt that those moves had validity for himself as well as how they fit in the overall JKD scheme of things. I am sure Demi, John and others have seen the old catch-judo-style wrestling holds that Lee was working on.

A good resource about Lee's wrestling moves would be to view some old Inosanto or Rick Tucci videos.

You'll have some idead if you haven't seen it allready. Larry used to teach that stuff to us back in the day.
4/22/10 12:01 AM
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nowaydo
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It was Black Belt; August 1971.

Gene just never took himself so seriously.

He never had a Brazilian Accent.

He was never Asian.

Because of those last two, he wasn't seen as "cool".

He never felt he needed bravado to fight for his family's pride.

He never had a money hungry businessman, with great foresight behind him.

He never felt he needed to storm the local karate and TKD dojos to show the world the power of Judo and wrestling.

As a stuntman, he was use to standing in the background.
4/22/10 7:28 AM
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Kai Tremeche
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nowaydo - It was Black Belt; August 1971.

Gene just never took himself so seriously.

He never had a Brazilian Accent.

He was never Asian.

Because of those last two, he wasn't seen as "cool".

He never felt he needed bravado to fight for his family's pride.

He never had a money hungry businessman, with great foresight behind him.

He never felt he needed to storm the local karate and TKD dojos to show the world the power of Judo and wrestling.

As a stuntman, he was use to standing in the background.


The last line was most telling and is exactly it. We had hundreds of qualified grapplers out there, but none who brought about the revolution until the 90s, and it's sad.

I walked around until 1994 believing that the wrestling I had done was worthless for fighting.
4/22/10 9:34 AM
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Demitrius Barbito
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Kai,

Back in 05 I had a very interesting group of trainers come in from DHS. This group was from every point under that umbrella (Customs, ICE, Border Patrol).

There was this one tactics instructor from the San Diego division who had a "wrestler" look. He was probably in his late 30's.

Halfway through the first day I start teaching clinch and takedowns and he looks soooooo confused it was scary. So he comes over to me and says:

"I can't believe how you have integrated Greco/Wrestling into defensive tactics! I wrestled all through high school and I'm a wrestling coach now BUT I NEVER THOUGHT TO INTEGRATE IT INTO MY DEFENSIVE TACTICS PROGRAMS. I'm blown away".

I told him it's simply the norm in all modern schools.

The established law enforcement training structure, the martial arts mystique and liability concerns of training injuries had kept a negative status quo going in the field of defensive tactics training up until 2000 or so.

I remember about 10 years ago I was sitting in a jacuzzi at some flea bag motel with a few guys after a day of training. It was Paul Hopkins, Scott Ferreira and Steve??? I had just started to go mad with my firearms training but I was saying that I was looking for the next MA "thing" to integrate. Steve said Greco. I remember thinking to myself that Greco would be "a step in reverse". I was ignorant! Within months I was telling Scott that he needed to train Greco!!! Now he was just like me. He said he didn't need it. So I said "put the boxing gloves on and I'm gonna clinch your ass". So, him gloves and me no gloves. This was a scary thing because Scott was a hell of a boxer and he outweighed me. So we work for about a half hour. He punched the hell outta me for that time but I was also getting in and going to sidebody or back etc.

When we were done he agreed that he needed to work his clinch game (and I saw that I NEEDED TO BETTER MY BOXING).

We very very fortunate that emotional preferences, silly ideas and super coolness didn't keep us from learning and changing.

I'm still learning.

Demi
4/22/10 12:07 PM
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WidespreadPanic
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Edited: 04/22/10 12:18 PM
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It's interesting looking back at just what kept BL from realizing the utility of wrestling and judo and grappling.

He did have a reasonable idea of the 'ranges of combat', i.e. that there was long range stuff, short range stuff and infighting, but he didn't have a comprehensive framework. He didn't fully understand the idea of 'delivery system'. I think he saw WC as a delivery system for short strikes and getting to the opponents eyes and groin, and those still hold up pretty well if you have the speed and perception and can anticipate the opponent's moves, something he was extremely good at doing.

His attributes were actually a barrier to him getting those concepts. He could excel based on his speed, his ability to perceive the opponent's intent to attack, and he did not really have a 'need' to go to grappling range.

However, he did make some attempts, using Wing Chun as an entry. This was one of his mistakes. The real martial art to use at the range of two hand contact is the tie up and clinch and grip fighting. Once you get a grip on someone they're going to grab you back, pull you in, headbutt, push away, or throw. They're not going to let you 'trap'. Most of the time, they'll back out. But he picked opponents who were slower than he was (not his fault really, everyone in his time was slower), and he was able to mostly make his WC entries work in an 80-90% intensity. But they fail to work at 100% intensity.

He thought he could use finger jabs to the eyes and kicks to the knee to get an advantage - and in some sense he was right. I think in a real fight, from a 'standing start' he could have finger jabbed and then entered and dominated in a few seconds.

He also didn't seem to have a concept of actual 'submissions' and finishing moves. His stuff was a lot like what you see in Silat and other arts where they just 'indicate' the submission and don't carry it to the logical extreme - getting a tap or a KO. WIthout aliveness and a resisting opponent it appears that getting the 'lock' will always work - but we know it won't. He didn't spar to the KO (hard to do back then and keep students).

Again, he dabbled in grappling but didn't have a realization of 'aliveness' and 'rolling', and didn't have the concept of the guard & mount as the delivery system, enabling rolling practice.

Had he gotten the idea of 'aliveness' and 'delivery systems' he'd have broken down all the arts and ranges into what comprised these and had a better over all system. But it would have required him to go further outside his comfort zone and train with grapplers and he was not really willing to do this, it seems. He got really far in his 33 years. He put a lot of this together, but he didn't have anyone who really was advanced enough at the time to challenge him, or show him the utility of the grappling, tieup, clinch, takedown and grip fighting stuff. Or, he just figured he'd muscle through it using speed and accuracy and bypass that range.

He did mention to Hawkins Cheung that he felt his idea of 'interception' had ultimately failed - he was not able to deal with all attacks using that method. But as I said, in the area of innovation, standing start self-defense and the like he was way ahead of his time. Had he been around to meet guys who did BJJ, and been able to train with guys like Matt Thornton and Rodney King he'd have taken the sport/art to new levels, IMO.
4/22/10 2:46 PM
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Demitrius Barbito
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"""I think in a real fight, from a 'standing start' he could have finger jabbed and then entered and dominated in a few seconds. """


Here is what I think. Bruce Lee would have been dominated by tons of his contemporaries. Joe Lewis would have killed him with one punch. Bob Wall would have hurt him bad. Even Kareem would have kicked his head right off his shoulders. Gene LeBell would have submitted him easily.

Bruce Lee was a "showman" not a fighter. Fighters fight. You dont have to listen to what they "say about" fighting, because you watch them actually fight! He was an actor first and foremost. Martial arts were a vehicle to him.

At his school who was off acting and who was teaching and working with people?

It's really a case of "PAY NO ATTENTION TO THE MAN BEHIND THE CURTAIN".

Was he strong, yes. Was he fast, yes. Was he progressive, yes. But he was 5'4" and 128lbs (or thereabouts). One full shot from chuck norris would have given him whiplash.

Now, why do I point this out? Because the "IMAGE" of Bruce Lee is one of the final hold outs from martial antiquities that still causes confusion and is used to manipulate people to this day. Bruce Lee is not "martial arts". He is not the father of MMA. MMA wants to use his IMAGE as a manipulation tool just like magazine, books, movies and students from the 70's do.

That period of time is just a snapshot of a moment when fighting arts were changing radically. It was the same with Kano, Gracie JJ, Mike Tyson, Mohammed Ali etc... They all didn't use it as a vehicle to further their acting careers though.

Mike Tyson = Fighter. Bruce Lee = Actor/Philosopher and martial artist.

However, as in all things, this is how I see things from my vantage point. And I am on the sidelines of the parade, not looking down from the goodyear blimp. So... For whatever it's worth.

Demi "Demi Barbito" Barbito

;)
4/22/10 4:02 PM
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Kai Tremeche
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Demitrius Barbito -


Here is what I think. Bruce Lee would have been dominated by tons of his contemporaries. Joe Lewis would have killed him with one punch. Bob Wall would have hurt him bad. Even Kareem would have kicked his head right off his shoulders. Gene LeBell would have submitted him easily.




I'm not sure about Bob Wall, since everything I've seen is that he was a full contact point fighter.

Kareem, while an awesome athlete wasn't trained in much.

But yeah, Joe Lewis would have given Bruce a brain injury, and Lebell, that's not even a question. He'd fireman him up and run around singing and Bruce wouldn't be able to do a thing.
4/22/10 4:07 PM
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nowaydo
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Mike Tyson = Fighter.

Bruce Lee = Actor/Philosopher and martial artist.

Demi Barbito = ?

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