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JKD UnderGround >> Discovery Channel JKD show


4/22/10 4:41 PM
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WidespreadPanic
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Edited: 04/22/10 8:12 PM
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Demi, you have a few facts wrong. First BL was not 5'4 128lbs, he was 5'7, 135-140lbs with about 4% BF.

Would Joe Lewis have killed him with one punch? Had BL stood there and let him hit him, he might have. He was 180-190lbs and was taking 'roids in those days. But if you watch Lewis' fights, he was ponderous. He got much better about 5-10 years later after digesting BL's stuff. Had BL stood and engaged, Lewis would have hurt him without much trouble. BL was just too much lighter. Same story with any huge weight disparity.

But I don't get why you are comparing BL, a super-featherweight with guys who are cruiserweights. People who sparred with BL have repeatedly said he was impossible to hit. I think there are only two reports of anyone even touching even playing around. Kareem would have hurt him had he gotten a hand on him, but I think he weighed close to 230lbs in those days at 7'2, so, again an unfair comparison.

There's no doubt in my mind that Gene Lebell, or any solid grappler would have handled BL very easily, and again, Lebell was a heavyweight with giant hands and was extremely durable and tough and hard to hurt. I think BL made a big mistake brushing off grappling and the encounter with Lebell showed he was certainly clued into that huge weakness in his style.

I've always suggested that one of BL's faults as a fighter is that he may not have been very durable - his chin was untested.

Next ask yourself why Wall is still a BL fan to this day? Would Wall, an iconoclast have respected a guy he could beat easily? Would Lewis have claimed to be BL's student if he could easily beat him? No. These guys had big egos and would not have aligned themselves with a pushover. You can clearly see the difference in fighting skill, even behind the stage fighting in RotD between Lee and Wall and Norris - both were ponderous and slow in comparison. Most people realize BL's main skills included bringing an incredible intensity to the screen, something that has not been matched even today almost 50 years later. In addition he was an exceptional theoretician and a pretty good trainer (though he spent a lot of time hiding his stuff after Oakland).

Could Norris have beat him?  think Norris would have had a pretty good chance at an unsuspecting BL after he had learned Machado BJJ. But he wouldn't have beat him twice.

Are my suppositions based on solid fact? Maybe not. But I'm just offering a slight correction and some counterpoint to your assertions.
   
4/22/10 8:22 PM
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WidespreadPanic
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From 1990, the Lewis v Wallace 'fight' (an exhibition) gives you an idea of the handspeed and power of Joe Lewis when he was not on 'roids. Lewis was 46 here so not at the peak of his power. To me, Lewis does not show 'heavy hands' (again, it's an exhibition, but they ampped it up in later rounds).

I do think that Lewis had very good conditioning (as did Wallace) to be able to go at this rate for 7 rounds. So big plus for him. (BL would have been 50 in 1990.)
4/22/10 8:28 PM
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Paul Hopkins
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chuck norris is the father of american kickboxing. there is an old video, the one that has an event where chairs end up getting tossed in to the ring, that is absolutely golden. so much high level kickboxing skill and chuck's commentary is fantastic.

I am 72

4/22/10 8:48 PM
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Kai Tremeche
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For an Exhibition match, you aren't going to see power or heavy hands. Ever.
4/22/10 11:42 PM
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ReneH
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"chuck norris is the father of american kickboxing. there is an old video, the one that has an event where chairs end up getting tossed in to the ring, that is absolutely golden. so much high level kickboxing skill and chuck's commentary is fantastic"

I do belive that Chuck never fought a real kickboxing event that I am aware off. He was a point karate fighter, not full contact.
4/23/10 1:50 AM
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nowaydo
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 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGTRugkyCFs&feature=player_embedded

Jim Kelly, karate champ and gracie JJ students thinks Bruce Lee was a little more than good.
4/27/10 5:14 PM
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FullBlastJKD
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Demi, as always, makes excellent points. Although I think that some of it is a bit out of context for all parties here since, as we all know, none of us were there. BUT...I agree mostly with what Demi says and with what Widespreadpanic had to say.

Although my screen name has "JKD" in it, I stopped teaching it as an art, per say, a couple of years ago. In fact, I mainly teach and train BJJ now. I got tired of all the in-fighting, all the pointless and ENDLESS debate over what Bruce would or would not have done, or why or why not trapping or WC works or doesn't. I would rather argue about whether or not I should try X-guard vs half-guard, you know? LOL

But seriously, I think that if Bruce Lee had lived, or rather I HOPE that if Bruce Lee had lived, that he would have realized that there was way more to a functional system and would have created it.

I have a TON of respect for guys like Demi, Joe Maffei, Matt Thornton, Luis Guttierez, Adam and Rory, Paul Hopkins, and so many others here. And I don't mean this to overshadow them or take away from their expertise, but I think that guys like Tony Blauer are closer to "Bruce Lee" in the sense of true self defense, and martial arts in general. Not that Tony is the only one to move forward, but he is a great example of someone taking Bruce's philosophy and doing something great with it.
4/27/10 6:59 PM
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FullBlastJKD
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I would like to say one other thing.

I have been a BL fan since I started martial arts when I was 9. I ended up training with Lamar Davis for over 13 years. For the first year, I was a die hard, dedicated, loyal and close minded student of his. I "discovered" Tony's teachings and had to ask myself "what have I been doing all this time?" But I stuck with JKD or OJKD as it used to be called. However, I was now completely enthralled by Tony's teachings. And I couldn't believe how any JKD guy could NOT love what Tony was doing.

You have to keep in mind, most of you here know who Lamar is, and some of you have even met the man. So, you know the reputation, and some know the actual person. That being said, it would probably be a hard pill for anyone to swallow that someone that was basically his "right hand man" as he called me, would be so into what Tony was doing, and BJJ.

Lamar told me not to train outside his teachings. He told me eveyone else and every other art were junk, or a waste of time. Fortunately, I didn't fall into that "trap", pun intended, and discovered what I truly loved to do.

After all that time, and fighting all his battles for him on various forums, he turned on me and forced me to leave his organization.

I realized I was only carrying his flag to make myself feel better about the choice I made in being his student. His self righteous views and childish behavior was overshadowing our friendship.

It made me take a hard look at what my beliefs were about JKD and Bruce Lee. I realize that BL was only a man, not perfect and that his art, no matter how debated, was still good and still, with proper work, could flourish outside of what many on both sides of the JKD 'coin' termed to be true JKD.

I don't believe that Bruce Lee is the "father" of MMA, but certain credit should go to him for thinking way outside the box in terms of martial training back in the day.

He was an innovater, and someone looking to improve himself constantly. I think that Bruce would definitely frown on all the in-fighting people have done over the years, and how fragile egos have stood in the way of good relationships and brotherhood.

I truly looked up to Lamar as a father figure, even if I didn't agree with everything he said about other arts. But, his narrow-minded views and quick temper caused an end to what could have been a great friendship and partnership in the martial arts.
4/27/10 8:57 PM
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Adam Singer
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FullBlastJKD. Thank you for the shout out. I agree 100% that there are 100s of guys that are much better at the SD material. I teach the sport of MMA no different than if I were a Football coach.
THanks
Adam
4/28/10 3:27 PM
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FullBlastJKD
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Adam, you're welcome! And although I already stated, I want to make it clear that I think you and Rory are awesome and I am sure whatever you teach it's worth more than a Buffalo nickel in a one cent store! =)

Bryan
4/28/10 7:55 PM
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Demitrius Barbito
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Yay.........

Dialog!

...flexes bicep muscle...

Demi "Demi Barbito" Barbito
4/28/10 10:05 PM
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Adam Singer
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Thank You.
Adam
4/29/10 4:44 AM
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MobutuHari
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Demitrius Barbito - Yay.........

Dialog!

...flexes bicep muscle...

Demi "Demi Barbito" Barbito


I give 5 Diego YES cartwheels.

The respect for Tony's stuff and other self-defense stuff coming from JKD guys is kinda refreshing to hear for me. Most encounters I've had with JKD people have been bad, mainly b/c they always had a smug attitude that they knew everything . . sometimes monopolizing our whole entire TMA class when they've visited. The only true JKD gentleman I've met was Burton, but then again there aren't a lot of JKD guys here.


As for Tony - my friends in kenpo used to watch his stuff . . umm man like almost 20yrs ago . . time really does fly!
4/30/10 3:55 PM
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FullBlastJKD
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not to turn this into a "Lamar bashing" thread, but all of this discussion has made me think a lot about the situation.

All the years I was with him, various instructors that I was friends with kept asking me why I was with him. One JKD instructor met with me just to talk to me about him, and after our meeting he e-mailed Lamar and told him that he was lucky to have ME as a student. That pissed him off, but I felt pretty good about it. I was even told that because of my strong support of him on various forums, that I might even lose respect from many in the JKD community.

I will even go as far as to say that one of BL's original students called me on the phone to discuss him. He told me that I was probably the only person he would listen to and that I should talk to him about his statements and behavior on the forums and about another one of his students that was a total idiot causing problems and starting trouble with various instructors.

After talking with him for a while, and explaining that I couldn't do that as I had too much respect for him and it wasn't my place, he told me that being his student would not open any doors for me, but that it might close a few.

So, a couple of years ago there was discussion on his forums about whether or not Gracie Jiu Jitsu was effective in real self defense and should it be taught to airline personnel. Now, Lamar had a hard and fast rule about not discussing any arts on his forums, other than JKD or WC. however, the poster was someone new to JKD and martial arts, so I thought it necessary to try and answer his question, while still remaining "JKD" friendly.

I won't go into everything I said because it would bore everyone here...as I am sure my post here does now LOL but basically I said that I thought it was fine for real self defense and that they have been teaching Air Marshalls for years. There was more detail to it, but you get the idea. I also explained that it was good to know escapes, basic counters, and just a general knowledge of common situations you can find yourself in on the ground.

So, that sparked some heated debate. The JKD nutjobs that were his blind followers basically said I didn't know what the hell I was talking about and that I had my head up my BJJ ass too long to know what real self defense was. do you think Lamar stood up for me?

There were more than one respected instructor on that thread that agreed with me, but to no avail. it got kind of ugly. I tried to re-state what I meant, and even that got shut down. Now, like I said, I had been fighting Lamar's battles for years and years on the forums he liked to go to. I have argued with many instructors, including a couple of BL's own students. Lamar always told me that he appreciated all the help I gave him on the forums and that I didn't know how much it meant to him.

He also told me that he had no problem with my training in BJJ or if I wanted to train in Blauer's system. He said I was one of his most trusted, and loyal students.

So, when he finally chimed in on the discussion, he slammed everything I said. He basically cut my legs out from under me and made me look like I didn't know, nor had any business discussing self defense.

So, I came back with something a little heated myself, saying that no one except for two or three people were actually READING what I wrote and that if they had, there would be no room for debate.

then I proceeded to explain how you have a humble and nice man, who is also a legend, Carlos Machado. He's only about 160lbs, and may not seem like he could hurt you, but on the contrary, would not be a man you would want to cross in a real fight. Yet, he would never rip his students apart like that.

That got me in hot water.

so, he "apologized" so to speak, but it was back-handed. It was to the effect of "I am sorry, you got everything wrong".

So, I took it for what it was worth, and then a year later one of his most idiotic students...a newbie, started chastising and belittling everyone who was into MMA or BJJ. He got into arguements that were archaic in their logic about martial arts. Saying things like BJJ is a waste of time, MMA is not real fighting, etc.

It went on for a while. I tried to be nice, I tried to be thought provoking in my defense of BJJ and MMA, to no avail.

Lamar kept telling us to stop discussing it and follow the rules of the forum with lots of CAPS LOCKED WORDS and !!!!!!!! to illustrate his point.

Then one day said idiot said that he could beat any BJJ Blackbelt even in a straight up grappling match because...now get this...he was at one point....a high school wrestler!!!!!!!!!! LOL

He also went on to say various things like 'grapplers are gay' grappling is for "queers" anyone that rolled on a mat with another man was gay. He also quipped that he could EASILY defend against ANY top MMA fighter...he even named Fedor, Crocop, RICKSON, anyone and that they could NOT take him to the ground.

So, I challenged him. I said that I was a meager purple belt, but that he would be a lost puppy if he tried to stop me from getting him to the ground. I also reminded him that I have been doing JKD since around 1986 and was a Full Instructor in Lamar's system. He still told me to "bring it on". Ok, well that got squashed by Lamar. But not before all his die-hard followers chastised me for my challenge to him. He backed off and then said he would love to roll with me.

Well, it was too much for me. I asked Lamar to intervene and make this clown shut his mouth. He just told me to relax and not to worry about it and that me and this other idiot would actually get along if we actually met.

Then the asshole went and said that grapplers are all trash and that we belonged on the ground with all the other "trash".

That was the last straw for me. I told Lamar that since he didn't see fit to do anything about this guy, that since it was cool for him to disrespect me, all my students, my friends, my teachers, that I could no longer represent him or be a part of his organization.

I didn't even discuss JKD or go on any JKD related forums. The last thing I did was to go on Paul Bax's forum and declare myself free of Lamar. I painted him in a good light, told everyone that I loved and respected the man, but I could no longer in good faith be a GOOD representative for his organization. I made it out to be that because I loved BJJ and MMA and have students that compete in both...AND that I am a coach at a BJJ gym in Alabama, that it was a contradiction to his teachings and philosophy and that I was putting HIM in a bad spot.

He still didn't appreciate that. He said that no matter how nicely I put it, no matter how good I was at making myself out to be the bad guy, it would paint HIM in a bad light. Well, not only did I leave him, but so did another one of his full instructors on the same day. I haven't heard from him since.

4/30/10 7:11 PM
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Kai Tremeche
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FullBlastJKD - 

He still didn't appreciate that. He said that no matter how nicely I put it, no matter how good I was at making myself out to be the bad guy, it would paint HIM in a bad light. Well, not only did I leave him, but so did another one of his full instructors on the same day. I haven't heard from him since.



Sounds like a cult of personality. Be happy you are out.
5/3/10 8:16 PM
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ReneH
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Geez.

That was a lot of things off your chest!

Move forward, learn from everyone, and enjoy the information.
5/3/10 10:57 PM
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bkprice661
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So Bruce met a BJJ guys and got mounted, man thats funny, I cant believe anyone would believe that.

Althoug I dont traing in JKD now, I have seen Bob Bremmers and Tim Tacketts JKD teachings and it seems to work in sparring for there guys and a few now have won some MMA fights.

Bruce was not a superman but he was fighter, there are more then enough people who have seen Bruce spar and fight to know he could handle himself. Not to admit that shows you have some issues with him deeper then his Skills, which is weird because the guys has been dead a long time.

Respecting pioneers is a good thing even though all the cool kids talk crap about Bruce, is shows you respect the efforts and abilites for those who really try and improve beyond the norm, which most will never do.


As far Grappling, Bruce was doing it before most and Gene even said he loved it, even ate it up. Gene talks highly about Bruce by the way.
5/3/10 11:12 PM
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Edge08
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John Frankl - Sitting in a hotel room in Osaka and a Bruce Lee documentary comes on.

Wow! This guy had tons of influence. Ray Leonard, LL Cool J, Undercover Brother, and many others. I am impressed by his influence.


Yup. So am I.

I don't believe I've ever read/seen anything by anyone who's actually trained/sparred with BL describe him as a 'non-fighter.' If there is something like that, I'd be interested in seeing it.:)

Many talented fighters in his time; Jim Kelley, Chuck and Joe, have said they had huge respect for the man. Anyone can find proof of that fact.
5/4/10 11:44 AM
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Demitrius Barbito
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"""Respecting pioneers is a good thing even though all the cool kids talk crap about Bruce"""

I haven't showed any disrespect to Bruce Lee by stating my opinions. And for the record, the cool kids would never talk crap on Bruce! Only the weird kids who don't go to all the parties and just go home and train.

Here is how I see things. Get ready...

If Fedor never fought BUT did a bunch of Rambo type movies would there be reason to call him the greatest fighter ever?

No doubt Bruce Lee could fight. No doubt he was larger than life on screen. BUT "larger than life" always IS. Which means fake!

What Bruce did for martial arts and films was awesome. JKD was/is good stuff.

But in my opinion Bruce Lee was not the greatest fighter of all time.

So what!

Demi "Demi Barbito" Barbito
5/5/10 9:24 PM
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Edge08
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Edited: 05/05/10 9:28 PM
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Bruce could fight. Other champion fighters respected his fighting capacity and wanted to train with him as well. Many of his training principles are now out-dated. Many more of his principles are just as pertinent as they were in '73.

He was, is and will always be one of the biggest influences in the fighting world and his contribution will never be forgotten.
5/9/10 11:25 PM
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Adam Singer
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Bruce could fight. - Proof?

Other champion fighters respected his fighting capacity and wanted to train with him as well. - Which ones?

Many of his training principles are now out-dated. - Which ones?
Many more of his principles are just as pertinent as they were in '73. - Which Ones?
5/10/10 12:01 PM
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Kai Tremeche
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Adam Singer - Bruce could fight. - Proof?

Other champion fighters respected his fighting capacity and wanted to train with him as well. - Which ones?

Many of his training principles are now out-dated. - Which ones?
Many more of his principles are just as pertinent as they were in '73. - Which Ones?


Question everything, well played.
5/10/10 7:34 PM
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Edge08
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Edited: 05/10/10 7:49 PM
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I've read in different biographies of Bruce Lee that he was sort of a punk in his teens and got in fights then. Check out Amazon to pick up some of those biographies.

Fighters like the aforementioned; Jim,Chuck and Joe wanted to train with Bruce and got their chance. You could check youtube for their mention of Bruce.

I'm no JKD expert, but I think the 3 inch punch as a fighting technique is out-dated. Most JKD instructors don't teach its principles.

His famous line 'Absorb what is useful,' is a timeless principle.

Hopefully, those are OK answers to you. BTW, I have your clinch tapes and am a fan of you and your brother. Do you still keep in touch with Mr. Sharp?
5/23/10 11:44 PM
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Edge08
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I was reading about Bruce Lee's interest in isometric exercises and found them interesting. Supposedly he utilized them everyday, along with regular weight lifting and running/shadow boxing.

There's a book online he referenced (specifically chapter 9.)
http://www.sandowplus.co.uk/Competition/Hoffman/fic/Functional%20Isometric%20Contraction.pdf

Has anyone incorporated isometrics with improvements?
5/24/10 8:54 PM
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Demitrius Barbito
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I do isometric exercises all the time. Always have. I feel I get a moderate benefit from them.

I like basic large muscle group exercises and compound movement exercises. I'm in the best shape of my life right now at 41. (Damn, did I just say 41...???). ISOMETRICS are not for "look" as much as they are for strength in a specific position.

Most look at me like I'm a freak at the gym. I do static 45's. I hold shrugs in the low and high positions. I hold my bench at full extension and an inch off my chest etc.

Isometrics were taught to me by my father who did them when he was in high school in the 50's training in gymnastics.

Then he overdosed on prescription pain killers and heroin in the mid 90's. Poor inglorious bastard...

"I'm still here El Guapo".

Demi

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