UnderGround Forums
 

HolyGround >> here's the intro to Matthew


5/2/10 8:30 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
reverend john
195 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 26724
 


Now, if you want to do comments please go to my web page johnthereverend.com If you just want to talk about the quality of the video of lack there of you can do that here. I know it is pretty boring stuff, but this will allow me to get to the fun stuff in the next one :) rev
5/2/10 8:30 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
reverend john
195 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 05/02/10 8:30 PM
Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 26725
 


sorry, weird double post

rev
5/5/10 8:25 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
jimmy23
96 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 66988
for later 
5/5/10 10:38 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
martial_shadow
1 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 9232
1- wait a second, where's the fire and brimstone and everyone who's not exactly like me is going to suffer forever talk? Wait, that's not part of it! COOL!

2- I very much appreciate your contextualizing at all levels. This has always been one of my major concerns when talking with Christians who seem not to realize that in some cases a speech is contextually given to one specific person, in one specific place in one specific time while in others it was meant for the masses for all time. I would personally add one more layer to your context explanantion. Translation. I get to read the OT in Hebrew and we know that since Second Temple times there have been no serious changes to the texts written by that point. You guys read your stuff in your local language, but it has been translated numerous times with all the biases and limitations of the translator every time.

3- Yes, the Israelite establishment was hostile to the early Christians. But in context ;) numerous end of times cults and prophetic cults were popping up. The religious establishment was more or less permitted to continue as long as lip service to Rome was paid- they let us keep our invisible G-d, circumcision and Bible study. Anything that pissed off the Romans would put that at risk. In a world where Sicarii are assasinating Roman diplomats while dressing like Levites, Essene priests were preaching vegetarianism and the end of times, and the religious establishment saw their world evaporating (and keep in mind- Judaism had already had the Babylonian exile and all the fallout from that) they were struggling to keep the fires small and contained. It was not hostility to Christians- it was hostility to anything too far outside the norm of Judaism in that time.

just some thoughts

MS
5/5/10 8:30 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
reverend john
195 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 26741
Point One: that will come later :)

Point two: I will deal with the translations of Hebrew scriptures when they come up, but they aren't incredibly often, I think you will be happy with my treatment.

Point three: I thought I was careful to say, "and fair enough" to my point that the Hebrew culture held animosity towards this new movement, considering it as a cult. If you think I need to clarify that point more, I will, but I completely agree with everything you said.

rev
5/6/10 12:45 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
martial_shadow
1 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 9234
I look forward to 1 & 2 :)

My concern with point 3 is 95% of the Christians I have spoken with literally believe Jesus appeard in a vaccum and are not aware there were serious cultural, political and economic ramifications to the NUMEROUS cults at the time and what they were percribing. My point is, in that specific time and place, the animosity by Jews to Christians was not targeted to Christians (unlike say, a pogrom in Russia)- it was targeted to those who could disrupt the delicate power balance. Its more could you say something like "The Israelite religious leaders not only persecuted the early Christians, but all of the other end of times groups that represented a threat to the tenuous peace between the political and economic establishment of Rome and the spiritual establishment of the Priesthood. This was done becuase they knew Rome would bring its military might down on the population- likely leading to another exile and they wanted to avoid this while perserving their own power over the population."

an idea like this, in my experience, is mind blowing to most Christians since they are not aware of the other groups at that time, nor have they been taught (or thought about apparently) how Jesus would have appeared to the religious leadership under those circumstances. He was, from their perspective, neither unique nor beneficial to the situation of Judea as a whole. Because most ppl think Jews targeted Christians as a matter of policy, this entire period of history is mucked up. I do not intend to belabor the point as I realize it is a minor one within the context of the analysis of the Gospels. But you could ask your listeners "If their was no culture, political and economic structure for Jesus to revolutinize- then what was He there to do?" The entire narrative is dependant upon a pre-existing structure that the Israelite political and spiritual leadership messed up and Jesus came to re-establish/fix/est. the NC. How would those ppl have seen Jesus, John the Baptist, the Esenes, the Sicarii and all the other 'nutjobs' from that time period. Ok, I'm lecturing- I need to stop.
5/6/10 1:51 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
reverend john
195 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 26744
well two points, Jesus was not an essene despite what the Jesus seminar tries to posit.

secondly, the Jewish people did not only have issues with the political balance, but also the religious beliefs of the early Christian church. There was more to it than just keeping from being persecuted by the romans. The fact is, it was Jewish groups that got Jerusalem and the temple destroyed in 70 ad, not Christians. Though there was much animosity between differing sects within Judea, there was also specific animosity towards this upstart cult that worshiped a man as God.

rev
5/6/10 2:28 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
martial_shadow
1 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 9238
Most of Jesus' beliefs can be found within the liberal Jewish movement at his time- after all, Hillel in 100CE (intellectual contemporary) said "What is hateful unto you, do not do unto your neighbor. This is the whole Law, the rest is commentary- go and study it my son.". It was his messianism, his claiming of divinity, his eating and drinking of divinity that were the major problems. In those he was more or less unique. But Jesus was not the only guy walking around claiming kingship. Several others were as well.
5/6/10 9:10 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
reverend john
195 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 26746
It feels like you are just arguing for the sake of arguing bro, I just said as much. But there was much more to Jesus than just "liberal Judaism" with a good press agent.

rev
5/6/10 11:43 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
martial_shadow
1 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 9239
np, just keep posting- I want to keep watching!
5/6/10 1:55 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
toelocku
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 05/06/10 2:08 PM
Member Since: 11/5/03
Posts: 3140
<blockquote>martial_shadow - Most of Jesus' beliefs can be found within the liberal Jewish movement at his time- after all, Hillel in 100CE (intellectual contemporary) said "What is hateful unto you, do not do unto your neighbor. This is the whole Law, the rest is commentary- go and study it my son.". It was his messianism, his claiming of divinity, his eating and drinking of divinity that were the major problems. In those he was more or less unique. But Jesus was not the only guy walking around claiming kingship. Several others were as well.</blockquote><br /><br /><br />


"It was his messianism, his claiming of divinity,"



"Isa 41:23 Declare the things that are coming hereafter, And we know that ye [are] gods, Yea, ye may do good or do evil, And we look around and see [it] together.


Jhn 10:29 my Father, who hath given to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to pluck out of the hand of my Father;<br />Jhn 10:30 I and the Father are one.'<br />Jhn 10:31 Therefore, again, did the Jews take up stones that they may stone him; <br />Jhn 10:32 Jesus answered them, `Many good works did I shew you from my Father; because of which work of them do ye stone me?'<br />Jhn 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, `For a good work we do not stone thee, but for evil speaking, and because thou, being a man, dost make thyself God.' Jhn 10:34 Jesus answered them, `Is it not having been written in your law: I said, ye are gods?<br /> Jhn 10:35 if them he did call gods unto whom the word of God came, (and the Writing is not able to be broken,)<br /> Jhn 10:36 of him whom the Father did sanctify, and send to the world, do ye say -- Thou speakest evil, because I said, Son of God I am? Jhn 10:37 if I do not the works of my Father, do not believe me;


"his eating and drinking of divinity that were the major problems."

what? i think you misunderstand what the SYMBOLS of the bread and wine are to be taken spiritually. you cant eat and drink something Spiritual. things that are spiritual are NOT physical.



"But Jesus was not the only guy walking around claiming kingship.


Jhn 18:36 Jesus answered, `My kingdom is not of this world; if my kingdom were of this world, my officers had struggled that I might not be delivered up to Jews; but now my kingdom is not from hence.'<br /> Jhn 18:37 Pilate, therefore, said to him, `Art thou then a king?' Jesus answered, `Thou dost say [it]; because a king I am, I for this have been born, and for this I have come to the world, that I may testify to the truth; every one who is of the truth, doth hear my voice.'

Reply Post

You must log in to post a reply. Click here to login.