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Cigars, Beer & Poker Ground >> Issue with low pocket pairs I'd like to clear up.


5/3/10 8:45 PM
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billid
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I just want to see everybody's opinion on the way I handle low pocket pairs 22-66 and I guess sometimes 77 and 88 can be grouped here. Not sure.

I play 6max NL holdem

I've been noticing in training videos they tend to be folding these hands in a few spots where I would happily call.

Actually there are two specific spots, both out of position.

One is from the blinds, calling any unopened raise with no callers or every position calling. Regardless, this is a call for me with 22-77.

The other is from UTG to the CO. It doesn't matter if it's a super fish to a 13/11 reg, I'm calling their 3bet putting myself out of position on the flop.

Also, my flop play does not just consist of set mining, fit or fold. I'm paying attention to the flop texture and the villains stats to watch for spots I can keep going with these hands when I don't spike a set. Not that this makes it right, the coaches in the videos are very capable of putting villain on hand ranges and playing well post flop and they are folding here. Actually, I'd have to go over a couple videos to see what their play is from UTG vs a 3bet putting them OOP, IIRC I saw a fold here. Could have been a fold due to the villain but no explanation was given.

There are a couple spots I can get away from it. Say UTG TAG raises, any CO 3bets and I'm sitting in the blinds, I can get away from them. From the btn though, I call.

What do you guys think?
5/5/10 12:37 PM
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billid
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don't be shy. we don't have to wait for PR and Wreckker

lol
5/5/10 6:51 PM
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cadeswallows
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im a full ring player and 6 max is a completely different deal. but in full ring ive been a break even player w 22-55 from early pos. therefore i just quit wasting time on them so i can concentrate on other things like razing hands from late pos and blind stealing etc.

1. yeah i think calling makes sense there.

2. calling the 3 bet? hmmm. not sure what u mean here, u say ur calling there 3 bet after u razed or after another villian razed?

i wouldnt think 6 max is different, but what i HATE is when i raze my pokket 77 from middle pos and get 3 bet by the button. it is my understanding that i have to fold my 77 (or 4 bet) cuz the 3 bet puts 10% of my stack in the middle just to basically set mine. calling is bad because ur oop and theres no guarantee ur gonna get his stack when u do hit a set, ur gonna lose to bigger sets, flushes and straights.

therefore it is not mathematically profitable to call the 3 bet. does the above apply to the 2nd question ur asking?? mayb if u think he has AA or KK. and hes a POW (pay oof wizard). ur thoughts????
5/5/10 7:26 PM
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wreckker
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 how deep are u playing that amatters a ton


SPR

stack pot ratio:}
5/5/10 8:36 PM
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cadeswallows
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absolutely, at 100 bb does the above sound about right.
5/6/10 11:36 AM
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billid
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When I played FR I was wasn't even raising with low pocket pairs from EP1 to MP1(was playing 10 handed)

#2 I'm saying when I sit in positions UTG to the CO, I raise, then I'm 3bet by any position after me up to the btn. I'm calling putting myself oop regardless of my opponent. I do however fold to short stacks who don't give me implied odds to call. (not that I could tell you the math to which my decision comes from. I'm just looking to play this hand vs villian with closer to 100bb and up)

6max you're getting 3bet light from the btn depending on the player and I have taken advantage of this by 4betting. This is very rare, so most of the time say fuck it, I don't want to fold and call and hope to make the correct decisions post flop.

150bb+ deep I can make the call more liberally oop to even bigger 3bets and 200+ I'm trying my hardest to see a flop with an aggro villian

When I talk about playing low pocket pairs OOP, I am definitely talking about 100bb+... under 80bb would be a whole new thread. I run on enough as it is so I won't get into that.
6/1/10 8:46 PM
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joe canada
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My thoughts on set mining:

You have to hit it.
It has to be good.
You have to be able to get a tonne of money in the middle.

Most times, at least one of those three things is not going to be true and you will lose a little, win a little, or lose a tonne.

So you need to maximize your return on those times when you do hit and you do get a board where you can get paid and where it will be good (as opposed to a JQK of spades board where your opponent has two red nines and neither one of you wants your stack in the middle).

Therefore, position plays a huge role in whether or not you play these small pairs.

Late position means less chance of a prefop raise or threebet (or four bet) crowding you out of the pot.

Late position also means that on the flop and beyond the action gets pushed to you. Opponents are more likely to throw out blocking bets where in position they would check or call behind. You have better control of the pot size

Late position opens up the question that you may be bluffing or semibluffing, therefore you are more likely to get paid off (or checkraised) with a middling hand, especially on a drawing board.

In short, the later you are, the better your control of the pot size, the more likely you are to get that big payoff when you do hit.

In a game with aggressive players who understand the concept of controlling the pot, I fold these cards early but will almost always call late if the stacks are big enough.
6/5/10 12:52 AM
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billid
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I have changed up my play with them since creating this thread. Added in tightening up my calling range with hands like lower suited connectors from late position.

I had gotten to the point where I was playing about 25/21 to 27/22 game and it was putting me in spots I didn't like way too often. Since then tightened back to about 18/15 to 22/18 range (individual session stats). One thing I've noticed in my graph is after a big win my money line tends to crawl sideways or very slowly up rather then slowly dropping till my next big win.

6/9/10 9:23 AM
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Yoojamajeen
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I play mid stakes 6 max online.

I agree with Wreckker that effective stack sizes should be one of your main considerations when deciding how to play low-mid PPs.

However, assuming 100BB stacks, I think that in 6-max you are better off either folding or 3-betting non-premium PPs rather than cold-calling from the CO or the button, as you will rarely be able to get enough money in the middle post-flop when you hit to justify the call on the basis of implied odds.

The fold is the safest option, but the occasional 3-bet is a good way to widen your 3-betting range while inflating the pot on the off chance you hit your set.

Even if you miss, you have a good chance of taking down the pot on a C-bet.


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