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SBGI >> Getting reps in


12/8/10 10:13 AM
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cprevost
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Absolutely holdyerground. If you have a better way than the way we've been doing things we'd love to hear about it. I think people's point was that you can't experience aliveness on paper. You have to experience it on the mat...
12/8/10 10:26 AM
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acid jazz
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cprevost - Absolutely holdyerground. If you have a better way than the way we've been doing things we'd love to hear about it. I think people's point was that you can't experience aliveness on paper. You have to experience it on the mat...
I agree with this.

I think the question is not if aliveness is a valid means of training. Of course it is, but rather if there is value in doing non-aliveness training in addition to aliveness.

Some people swear by drilling the hell out of a technique as a means of improving.

Books have been written on solo drills that have helped people improve when they can't make it to class as often as they would like.

Surely things are not purely black and white on this issue.


12/9/10 3:37 PM
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cprevost
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The problem comes in getting some actual usable data. You'd have to find a way to set up a control group and control the variables so that the only difference in the training is that one group got the "dead reps" and the other group didn't. Then you'd have to develop some sort of test of their growth. Not easy to do with BJJ. To my knowledge nobody has done anything like that. So, we end up with anecdotal evidence instead which is not nearly as reliable.

My take is that if there is a way to get good without all the dead reps then I want that way. I'm too ADHD to spend much time with them. As anecdotal evidence I can point out that we don't do them at the gym and guy's games have always improved very well. I can say with accuracy that they aren't necessary. Whether or not they are helpful I can't say. Haven't seen any real data that says they are. And, since I hate doing them anyway why bother?

And, if they did make a huge difference in people's games then I'd think that the gyms around us who do them would be producing guys who are way better than our guys. Not the case. So, either they aren't so important or we are somehow making up for not using them in some other way... In either case I'd damn glad I don't have to do 100 armbar reps...
12/10/10 7:41 AM
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acid jazz
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cprevost - And, if they did make a huge difference in people's games then I'd think that the gyms around us who do them would be producing guys who are way better than our guys. Not the case. So, either they aren't so important or we are somehow making up for not using them in some other way... In either case I'd damn glad I don't have to do 100 armbar reps...
Not saying that doing "dead" reps is the most efficient method, but rather asking if it is a viable training approach. Some people think so.

Maybe they are right. Remember the saying, there is more than one way to skin a cat.


12/21/10 10:50 PM
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HoldYerGround
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Looks like something resembling this discussion is taking place on the BJJ forum.
12/27/10 1:31 PM
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GFG
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i think doing endless number of dead reps will make you look real good and smooth when training with people that don't give you game, that's like only doing shadow boxing or hitting the bag but never sparring.

after you have the new technique down perfectly and can do it quickly and without effort that to me is the end of doing dead drills, this process can take as little as 5 to 100 reps to get down. After that i can't see the technique getting any better until you add resistance to it to see where it needs to be tweaked to make it work, against someone that doesn't want you to make it work, that itself is a never ending process, a simple technique like an armbar from the guard will continue to evolve forever as long as you can feed it new people to get armbared (hopefully each new person will have a different skill set or at least have a different approach to not getting armbared) other wise your armbar development will be at a standstill, unless you start getting creative yourself.

sorry got to go no time to proofread hopefully it makes some sense.
1/3/11 10:59 AM
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acid jazz
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GFG - after you have the new technique down perfectly and can do it quickly and without effort that to me is the end of doing dead drills, this process can take as little as 5 to 100 reps to get down. .
Am I misunderstanding you? Are you saying you only need 5-100 reps to get a technique down?
1/4/11 2:04 AM
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GFG
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Edited: 01/04/11 2:05 AM
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Yes that's how i feel. i know today i learned a new cool little choke and by the 2nd attempt i already had it technically perfect, i know only doing 2 reps wont have the technique memorized and instinctive but i feel there was no real benefit for me to continue repping out 100s of reps of that same choke on a grappling dummy when i felt like that technique was ready for progressive resistance from a live training partner. i'd rather get in 5 reps (out of 100 attempts) on someone who is resiting me, then 100s perfect reps without resistance.
1/4/11 7:48 AM
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acid jazz
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GFG - Yes that's how i feel. i know today i learned a new cool little choke and by the 2nd attempt i already had it technically perfect, i know only doing 2 reps wont have the technique memorized and instinctive but i feel there was no real benefit for me to continue repping out 100s of reps of that same choke on a grappling dummy when i felt like that technique was ready for progressive resistance from a live training partner. i'd rather get in 5 reps (out of 100 attempts) on someone who is resiting me, then 100s perfect reps without resistance.
I think I get what you are saying.

Are you saying that you perfect the technique by working it with a partner, rather than getting it perfect in solo practice?

Do you think a lot of solo reps are good for striking though? Say doing 300 punches or kicks a day for practice?
1/5/11 5:39 PM
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cprevost
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What exactly would you be practicing with those solo reps?
1/5/11 8:27 PM
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acid jazz
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cprevost - What exactly would you be practicing with those solo reps?
Mechanics for striking, improving technique. For grappling on dummies, the mechanics of a choke, a arm bar, etc...
1/13/11 3:56 PM
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GFG
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Edited: 01/13/11 4:00 PM
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Solo drills are great for conditioning and or if you have trouble physically doing a move you can work the mechanics/posture out on your own so you don't waste your training partners time just to get the motion,feel and base right. like if you're having trouble transitioning from position to position just work it on a floor bag till you get it right. However even after you get it right on a floor bag it will be a complete different thing to do it on someone whos trying to escape, and constantly trying to play with your base.

As for stand up i think its always better to have a patner to drill with then to do shit alone. sure if you have no partner the you can work the bag or practice on perfecting the mechanics of a specific move, or do some cardio by focusing on your footwork and punching and kicking air. but in the end that may only improve one tiny aspect of the whole game and may not even translate into you being able to fight better as it doesn't involve timming.

i can't stand in one place and throw 300 kicks day in and day out i'll go crazy, it just to boring for me. however while sparring or doing pad drills that develop some sence of timing and distance, i have no problem going for as long as my cardio will alow me.
1/17/11 2:04 AM
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HoldYerGround
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GFG - Yes that's how i feel. i know today i learned a new cool little choke and by the 2nd attempt i already had it technically perfect,

 Let me just catch you here. I don't know who you are, but I am unconvinced you had any new technique "technically perfect" after only two reps.
1/17/11 1:35 PM
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GFG
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Edited: 01/17/11 1:44 PM
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just a simple variation of a gi choke from side mount, first i was shown the move then i tried it but didn't get it right, had to make an adjustment then it was nice and tight. good enough for me no more dead reps. Continuing to drill the choke on a live non resisting training partner would be mean, and a pointless waste of each others time. However after that i only attempted the coke once in rolling but it didn't work.

maybe technically perfect is a strong word, i should of said i was introduced to the move and got the mechanics down within 2 attempts. now i need live training parters to help me make that move technically perfect.
1/22/11 9:01 PM
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HoldYerGround
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 Yeah maybe I took what you said too literally.

Anyway, my main point is that there are numerous examples of champions (Galvao, Cobrinha, etc) who advocate hundreds and hundreds of dead reps. Obviously, dead repetitions DO have value. Cprevost makes a softer point than some of the others have made on this thread: that the I method works too (aside from it being a more interesting way of learning BJJ for him). Of course, this is VERY different from saying something like "The I method is superior to any method using large amounts of dead repetitions" or "Time spent doing dead repitions (beyond getting the mechanics down) is time better spent doing something else."

These claims are not only hard to prove in the testing environment that cprevost described, but (I think?) there are less champions in BJJ who share and practice this minimalist attitude towards dead repetitions.
1/23/11 2:35 PM
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GFG
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Edited: 01/24/11 2:02 PM
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i guess your best bet is to compare training styles youself, i myself can't do dead reps if my life depended on it, as i'm lucky to get 3hrs of training in a week, so if i want to improve my game i need to train with resistance most of the time. however i don't mean rolling all the time i mean isolating a weak area of my game and working that area with resistance until that specific individual who exposed that weak link can't take advantage of it anymore. i take a backwords approach to training i roll first to expose weak links then i introduce techniques and do isolated drills to improve those weak links. Then I Roll again to find new weak links that need to be isolated.

i can't comment on these world champion bjj players stating the benefits of dead reps as i personally haven't seen them train myself. however i would argue that dead reps is not what made them world champions.

the way i see things dead reps (knowledge/mechanics) is one end of the spectrum, and rolling/sparring (timing /movement) is the other is the end spectrum. If you spend to much time on one end of the spectrum your not going to reach your full potential, but if your leaning most of your training towards the rolling and sparring you can't go wrong.

i personally spend around 65% of my time isolating with resistance, 25% rolling/sparring, and 10% learning and doing dead drills. lately my learning and dead drill ratio has gone up to almost 50% because of some privates i was sharing with a buddy, and it's frustrating as i know i need to spend more time rolling and less time fucking around learning new moves.

One thing i noticed with alot of local clubs is that, clubs that give more class time for rolling seem to produce more fighters. While clubs that spend more time learning moves, doing dead drills and only open up the last 10mins of the class for rolling don't produce as many fighters that compete locally.
1/23/11 4:25 PM
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cprevost
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Drills should as much as possible mimic the event being trained for. That should be the guiding principle. When you do that you don't need as much imagination and magic transference of skills to make them work.

If you use this principle then dead reps are hardly and almost never necessary.

I have yet to hear anybody make a counter argument that makes sense. Why would you want a drill that doesn't mimic the event being trained for?
1/25/11 6:02 PM
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GFG
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Edited: 01/25/11 6:04 PM
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i think the best way to see which training method is better before you write your article would be to test them both. find a guy that has a good guard that you can't pass, do a baseline test by isolating the movement of passing his guard which ever way you want, while he's trying to prevent the pass, trying to sweep and submit you. make note of how many times you pass, how many times you get swept or submitted in a specific time frame. now go for a week doing only guard passes on a grappling dummy or a training partner that is letting you pass his guard. Then go back and try to pass that guys guard again and make note of everything. Now do a week of just passing everyones guard while they are trying to prevent sweep, and finish you , make note of everything, and do the test for the final time. Then let us know what you find out. That's probably not the most scientific way of doing it as their are alot of holes in my lil test. however it's better then just sitting here typing about it.
1/31/11 10:56 AM
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HoldYerGround
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cprevost - Drills should as much as possible mimic the event being trained for. That should be the guiding principle. 

 I do NOT agree with this. This would mean that you should be spending most of your training time in regulation length matches trying to beat your opponent using maximum effort and a narrow gameplan.

I think the guiding principle should be how to modify your drills in such a way as to produce the sharpest technique. This does not always translate to mimicing the conditions as closely as possible. For example, take the "no arms guard drill", where use of the arms is completly disallowed to isolate the legwork for defending the guard pass.
1/31/11 11:01 AM
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HoldYerGround
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Edited: 01/31/11 11:01 AM
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GFG, you make an interesting proposal. However, I am training for competition (2 months away) and it will probably be unwise to attempt such an experiment during this period.

Also, I do not advocate a training methodology of merely practicing techniques against an unresisting opponent and then rolling. You didn't say I did, but you kind of implied it. 
1/31/11 11:04 AM
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HoldYerGround
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GFG -  i take a backwords approach to training i roll first to expose weak links then i introduce techniques and do isolated drills to improve those weak links. Then I Roll again to find new weak links that need to be isolated. 

 This is awesome.
2/2/11 2:35 PM
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Matt Thornton
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Cane's post summed it up pretty well. I think all of this was covered in my last post on drilling: http://aliveness101.blogspot.com/ There is of course a place for conditioning, for learning movement without resistance, and for breaking down movement. But in terms of actual 'drilling' there is nothing you could do as a dead pattern, that can't be done that much better when made 'Alive'. The only barrier there is knowing how to do it.
2/4/11 5:24 PM
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cprevost
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Let me give an example then because I think there is some confusion. I do stand by the principle that the drill must closely match the event being trained for as much as possible. Here's a scenario---

BJJ Class

I start the class with free sparring and watch what's going on. I see lots of guys getting their guards passed by simple standing passes. I break the group and develop a short drill. One guy tries to pass standing over and over. The bottom guy's job is just to defend the guard pass. The top guy passes if he can. If he's successful then he goes back into guard and passes again.

Why do the drill and not just free spar? Because I want to see students react to standing passes. I want them to get a lot of flight time with the position. I want to see what I need to teach.


While doing the drill I see that most of the passes that are working involve the top guy getting double pants grips. I develop a second drill. Top guy starts with double pants grips from standing and tries to pass. Bottom guy tries to prevent the pass. My job is to observe and watch how the bottom guy reacts to having both his pants grabbed.

Now this drill is even farther from free sparring than the first drill. It can't be helped though because it's the only way to get a lot of reps of the particular scenario in resistant training. I still consider this adhering to the principle.

I now see that the problem is that the guard players aren't working to actively strip grips. They are simply letting the top guy get grips and fighting from there. I develop another drill. This one is even farther away from the event being trained for but is necessary as well. This time the top guy gets grips and applies pass pressure and the bottom guy simply works to strip the grips. This is as close as I can get to the event being trained for while still addressing a pressing need.

This gives me all the information I need to break the crew and teach grip stripping techniques. Students try several different grip stripping techniques against each other without resistance a few times until they get the idea.

Next, I go back into drill mode and do the first one again. Top guy tries to pass and bottom guy keeps him out. Why not free spar? Because I need to see them attempt the grip strip against resistance multiple times. I need to see if they can pull it off in a slim version of the delivery system over and over.

If I have success there then I'll have students spar using the full delivery system. I may have them start in position and do a reset drill. This is the closest drill yet to the event being trained for. Here I say go and students spar to submission using everything allowed in the system. When I say reset students will go back to the reset position and start over. That way I can know that they get to at least start in the troubled position over and over and get some flight time with all the tools and techniques allowed. If I see them pull off the grip strips and have better guard pass defense here then I know I did my job.

Notice at no point here did I have them do 50 grip strips on each side. Nor did I have them do reps of guard retention drills or anything of the sort. The drills were all as close to free sparring as was possible given their objectives and needs. This is how we get reps in at SBG and is the fastest way we know to functionality...
2/9/11 1:01 PM
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GFG
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Edited: 02/09/11 1:03 PM
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I'm just watching the video of you breaking down the I-method. the only issue i have is that the 2 primary clubs that i train at don't follow the i-method in any way shape or form. One club focuses strictly on rolling and if you have issues they just tell you you need to roll more and the issues will disappear with experience, and the other club i roll at feels like they are turning BJJ into JJJ, as you get the introduction to a move then a ton of dead (cooperative drills) and the last 15-20mins of class is time to roll, if they didn't roll it would be jap jits ground fighting. I try to fit in the isolation part of the i-method whenever i can but sometimes it's hard to find a good training partner that i can communicate with. It's always balls to the wall rolling or 100% dead drills.

i've been preaching the i-method to training partners that i train with outside of classes and they love it as i do.
2/17/11 9:37 PM
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m.g
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Okay, first let me say this is a great thread!

And despite many of the SBG guys not liking me because I don't completely agree with their philosophy or ideas, many great points have been made on this thread by some SBG guys.

HOWEVER, HYG does make a very strong and legit point. It seems to me there are more individuals, particularly individuals who won championships, who either advocate or actively use the so called "dead-drilling" method more then the so called "alive" method or at least the "alive" method as described on this thread.


Now this obviously doesn't prove that so called dead-drilling method (if it can be called that) is better than so called "alive" drilling method. BUT it does say, in the very least, that dead-drilling does have some value, at least in the eyes of some people.

Furthermore, assuming that the so called "alive" drilling is so much better than "dead-drilling" method one would think individuals like Cobrinha and Galvao, like HYG mentioned, would absolutely abandon such "useless" methods of training/practicing, like dead drilling, and move on to something more like the so-called "alive" drilling method.

Clearly this isn't the case. Why?

Because even individuals like Cobrinha and Galvao see the value in so called "dead drilling" method. And they see more value in it then others do.

If people do not like "dead drilling" that is their right. I wouldn't call it useless. Apparently it is "useful" to someone. Furthermore, as HYG mentioned, there is no objective or scientific evidence to prove it doesn't work or that the so called "alive" drilling method is any better. It is totally subjective.

Incidently, there is no objective or scientific evidence to prove that "dead drilling" works either. Its benefit is based on history, personal experience and ancedotal evidence. And that, of course, is evidence enough for "some" people. But again it is all subjective.

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