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HolyGround >> Question for Martial Shadow...


5/7/10 2:44 AM
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Lahi
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Just wondering if you'd get into what you mentioned on another thread a little more, with reference to Christianity:

"There are still things that even with those ideas could not have been pulled frm a Jewish context and must have come from the Greco-Roman or Mithras religions around that time."

I'm curious to hear where you're coming from. Not trying to start a shouting match, just maybe a little discussion if I have any questions or points I disagree on...

Thanks,

Larry
5/7/10 12:02 PM
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martial_shadow
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At the time Christianity was forming and converting heavily from the Gentile population (120CE-400CE), it was competing with several other faiths. As they converted various communities before the power of the Church (either in Jerusalem or Rome) was solid and could determine 'this is Christianity and this is not' new practices were added to Christianity that had little to no basis within Judaism.

The most obvious of these is the use of icons. It is a tired and old arguement that I do not wish to debate again with the Christian members of the forum. Simply put- Jews do not include images of anysort in their religious worship and many Christian groups among those who converted from the pagan faiths, included images of Zeus and Appolo (or their equivalents) for the Father and the Son. This would be impossible for a religious Jew.

Also, the metaphoric-transubstantiation of the host and wine. While I can draw a very weak link between Judaism and this act, I can draw a very strong link with Mithras. At their festivals they would eat a bull which was a representative of their G-d. Further, the concept of drinking blood is ANATHEMA to Jews. The ancient Israelites developed an entire procedure to drain the blood of an animal and 'return it to its owner'. Pagans on the other hand had no qualms with drinking blood or having meat with blood in it (as most of your meat today still does).

MS
5/7/10 2:52 PM
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toelocku
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martial_shadow - At the time Christianity was forming and converting heavily from the Gentile population (120CE-400CE), it was competing with several other faiths. As they converted various communities before the power of the Church (either in Jerusalem or Rome) was solid and could determine 'this is Christianity and this is not' new practices were added to Christianity that had little to no basis within Judaism.

The most obvious of these is the use of icons. It is a tired and old arguement that I do not wish to debate again with the Christian members of the forum. Simply put- Jews do not include images of anysort in their religious worship and many Christian groups among those who converted from the pagan faiths, included images of Zeus and Appolo (or their equivalents) for the Father and the Son. This would be impossible for a religious Jew.

Also, the metaphoric-transubstantiation of the host and wine. While I can draw a very weak link between Judaism and this act, I can draw a very strong link with Mithras. At their festivals they would eat a bull which was a representative of their G-d. Further, the concept of drinking blood is ANATHEMA to Jews. The ancient Israelites developed an entire procedure to drain the blood of an animal and 'return it to its owner'. Pagans on the other hand had no qualms with drinking blood or having meat with blood in it (as most of your meat today still does).

MS

MS your concepts of real Christianity i find wannting to say the least.

Give me ANY new or ole test. ref. or any teaching of Jesus or his apostles that endorse IN ANY WAY image making(btw there aint any, i've checked).

Don't put the false doctrines of foolish Christians on the MASTER. The Master specifically FORBIDS it. That whole 'no graven images' was JESUS talking on the mountain.

As for the blood which you have such a problem with, I don't know if you know this but in the upper room CHRIST DRANK WINE not blood. The WINE was symbolic for blood, He didnt drink REAL blood nor did any apostles, not that, that would be sin anyway.

Do you honestly believe that if you don't eat a porkchop(best food ever btw) that makes you holier than those who do?(
5/7/10 4:05 PM
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Lahi
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Thanks MS.

What do you make of the Gospel descriptions of the Last Supper? Or Jesus' other comments about "eating and drinking" his blood? (Have to look up ch. and verse for you). Do you find those any more or less compatible with Judaism than the traditions that have grown up around them?

I tend to agree with you on the Icons, its not something I've looked into a lot though.
5/7/10 4:16 PM
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770mdm
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I read a midrash where Roman soldiers thought that Christians were canibals because of this symbolic gesture...  Funny

5/7/10 4:27 PM
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martial_shadow
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Toelocku- I've read the entire NT several times as well as the writings of many of the members of the early Church. I've visited numerous Churches and discusses Christianity with many different sects. What you CHOOSE to call real Christianity and false Christianity is not my business nor do I care. I am talking about what I have experienced talking to Orthodox, Catholics, Lutherans, New Church, Methodists, Anglicans and other Protestant groups. You can talk to some of the older members, I've been around the block.

Please read my statement- "many Christian groups among those who converted from the pagan faiths, included images of Zeus and Appolo (or their equivalents) for the Father and the Son." I never said Jesus approves of this action or required it. Its simply a fact that these images were integrated into early Christianity. Jesus and his original disciplies would never have understood this but by 300 many Churches in Europe and Egypt had images in them and this set the tone for the following centuries.

Also, I am fully aware of the Last Supper scene- I live it every year at Pesach. There is really no need to take such an accusatory tone. I am not here to undermine your beliefs. Simply, no Jew in his right mind could eat human flesh or drink blood. And as I said before- either by metaphor or transubstantiation, I am aware of both explanations, and neither would satisfy Halacha which Jesus and most of His disciplies were bound by.

Lahi- Most of the descriptions of the Last Supper are relatively accurate for a Pesach meal. Some minor details are different, but if things have been changed with time or the authors changed things to assist the reader, I do not know. Overall, its relatively accurate.

Actually, one time I had a Catholic friend over for Passover and about halfway through the ball dropped and he exclaimed "This really is just like the Last Supper." Of course I would say, the Last Supper happened at a Pesach meal, but that's a minor detail.

MS
5/7/10 4:52 PM
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toelocku
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martial_shadow - Toelocku- I've read the entire NT several times as well as the writings of many of the members of the early Church. I've visited numerous Churches and discusses Christianity with many different sects. What you CHOOSE to call real Christianity and false Christianity is not my business nor do I care. I am talking about what I have experienced talking to Orthodox, Catholics, Lutherans, New Church, Methodists, Anglicans and other Protestant groups. You can talk to some of the older members, I've been around the block.

Please read my statement- "many Christian groups among those who converted from the pagan faiths, included images of Zeus and Appolo (or their equivalents) for the Father and the Son." I never said Jesus approves of this action or required it. Its simply a fact that these images were integrated into early Christianity. Jesus and his original disciplies would never have understood this but by 300 many Churches in Europe and Egypt had images in them and this set the tone for the following centuries.

Also, I am fully aware of the Last Supper scene- I live it every year at Pesach. There is really no need to take such an accusatory tone. I am not here to undermine your beliefs. Simply, no Jew in his right mind could eat human flesh or drink blood. And as I said before- either by metaphor or transubstantiation, I am aware of both explanations, and neither would satisfy Halacha which Jesus and most of His disciplies were bound by.

Lahi- Most of the descriptions of the Last Supper are relatively accurate for a Pesach meal. Some minor details are different, but if things have been changed with time or the authors changed things to assist the reader, I do not know. Overall, its relatively accurate.

Actually, one time I had a Catholic friend over for Passover and about halfway through the ball dropped and he exclaimed "This really is just like the Last Supper." Of course I would say, the Last Supper happened at a Pesach meal, but that's a minor detail.

MS


"What you CHOOSE to call real Christianity and false Christianity is not my business nor do I care."

yet you make public posts pertaining to what is most Holy to me...my brothers in Christ. If you'd said, 'the majority of Christians', i'd have had no problem. My point is don't paint with such a broad brush accusing all Christians of heresy.



"And as I said before- either by metaphor or transubstantiation, I am aware of both explanations, and neither would satisfy Halacha which Jesus and most of His disciplies were bound by."

Hows this for metaphor and transubstantiation,...

Gen 49:11 Bind to a vine will he his colt, and to a yellow muscat grape the foal of his she-ass, he rinses in wine his apparel, and in the blood of grapes his coverlet.
Gen 49:12 Flushed will be his eyes from wine, and white, his teeth, from milk.

Isa 49:26 And I feed those tyrannizing over you with their own flesh, and as with juice, with their own blood shall they be drunk. Then all flesh shall know that I, Yahweh, am your Saviour, and your Redeemer is the Sturdy One of Jacob."

Jesus was 'bound' by no earthly dietary laws btw. that He observed it at times i don't dispute.

I find your post enlightening, but just thought i'd let you know that Christians who don't do what Christ says are just that.



5/7/10 5:01 PM
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Lahi
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MS - so its the idea of the blood and body being literal that's the issue, rather than Jesus talking about it perhaps metaphorically? Forgive me if I'm being dense here, just trying to understand.
5/7/10 5:51 PM
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martial_shadow
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Toelocku- ok, I will rephrase the statement as 'the majority of Christians I have spoken with...'.

Jews do not believe in transubstantiation but do beleive in metaphor. In fact, in Pardes metaphor is expected in Biblical studies. I am quite sure Jesus ate a traditional kosher diet.

Lahi- It doesn't matter if its metaphor or transubstantiation. Jews don't ingest blood. You have to keep in mind- this is in a time where famine is not unknown and one bad harvest can kill off 25% of a population. To not take a major caloric source was very bizarre. Jews ritually kill their meat and drain the blood out of it and then salt it to dry whatever other blood remains (this does lower disease transmission). All the other nations eat meat with blood (even today). The entire idea of consuming blood- literal or metaphorical is so outside of Jewish thought that it is not unreasonable to think this was edited some how. Bringing it up at the most sacred meal of the year on top of the prohibition against blood on top of it- you can see how bizarre this would sound. It would be like me telling my Greek friends on Easter to be vegan (only religiously and culturally prohibited).

MS
5/7/10 6:12 PM
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IBI
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770mdm - 

I read a midrash where Roman soldiers thought that Christians were canibals because of this symbolic gesture...  Funny


The Romans did indeed sometimes refer to Christians as cannibals, and cite the 'body and blood of Christ' thing.

However, bear in mind that the Romans often accused their enemies of cannibalism - since it was regarded as such an atrocious crime. At one time they said that the Spanish ate babies, for example.

So, it might be a genuine misunderstanding, or simply an insult.
5/7/10 7:18 PM
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toelocku
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ibi once again shows his knowledge...
5/8/10 11:16 AM
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Lahi
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martial_shadow - Toelocku- ok, I will rephrase the statement as 'the majority of Christians I have spoken with...'.

Jews do not believe in transubstantiation but do beleive in metaphor. In fact, in Pardes metaphor is expected in Biblical studies. I am quite sure Jesus ate a traditional kosher diet.

Lahi- It doesn't matter if its metaphor or transubstantiation. Jews don't ingest blood. You have to keep in mind- this is in a time where famine is not unknown and one bad harvest can kill off 25% of a population. To not take a major caloric source was very bizarre. Jews ritually kill their meat and drain the blood out of it and then salt it to dry whatever other blood remains (this does lower disease transmission). All the other nations eat meat with blood (even today). The entire idea of consuming blood- literal or metaphorical is so outside of Jewish thought that it is not unreasonable to think this was edited some how. Bringing it up at the most sacred meal of the year on top of the prohibition against blood on top of it- you can see how bizarre this would sound. It would be like me telling my Greek friends on Easter to be vegan (only religiously and culturally prohibited).

MS


Interesting MS. That does help put in perspective why people said it was such hard teaching, and why "many" of his followers deserted Jesus after he talked about that.
5/8/10 2:26 PM
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toelocku
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"Toelocku- ok, I will rephrase the statement as 'the majority of Christians I have spoken with...'.

Jews do not believe in transubstantiation but do beleive in metaphor. In fact, in Pardes metaphor is expected in Biblical studies. I am quite sure Jesus ate a traditional kosher diet"

Thank you for your rephrase.

I would add that Christians maybe even 40% worldwide do not believe in transubstantiation, this is a catholic thing and pagan heresy. When Christ instituted the remembrance of this body and blood in the passover meal in NO WAY did HE mean it the way catholics have made it out to be(ie literal flesh and blood).

Point is, just because you have greek freinds who believe this doesnt mean thats what Jesus said. Just so you know. That'd be like me asking meyer lansky for advice on proper jewish life.




"I am quite sure Jesus ate a traditional kosher diet"


The majority of His life I would agree, until He 'came of age', and then came to eat and drink with goyim tax collecters, prostitutes, etc... I wouldn't call that 'kosher', but thats just me.
5/8/10 2:28 PM
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toelocku
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oh yea heres what Jesus has to say about kosher diets...

Act 10:12 in which belonged all the quadrupeds and reptiles of the earth and the flying creatures of heaven.
Act 10:13 And a voice came to him, "Rise, Peter! Sacrifice and eat!"
Act 10:14 Yet Peter said, "Far be it from me, Lord, for I never ate anything contaminating and unclean!"
Act 10:15 And again, a second time, a voice came to him, "What God cleanses, do not you count contaminating!"
5/8/10 2:53 PM
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martial_shadow
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Nope. 1- That has nothing to do with what Jesus did when he was alive. Jesus ate a kosher diet when he was alive. You have provided no evidence to the contrary.

2- Peter is hiding on the roof from the Romans and praying to G-d for protection. He becomes hungry while hiding in fear of his life. Under these conditions, the laws of Kashrut (in fact all laws save idol worship) are removed. To save a life, you are fully permitted and even at time required to suspend ALL of the commandments. Under those conditions, eating all things which have four legs and the reptiles and the flying beasts would be 100% fine to eat.

MS
5/8/10 3:54 PM
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toelocku
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martial_shadow - Nope. 1- That has nothing to do with what Jesus did when he was alive. Jesus ate a kosher diet when he was alive. You have provided no evidence to the contrary.

2- Peter is hiding on the roof from the Romans and praying to G-d for protection. He becomes hungry while hiding in fear of his life. Under these conditions, the laws of Kashrut (in fact all laws save idol worship) are removed. To save a life, you are fully permitted and even at time required to suspend ALL of the commandments. Under those conditions, eating all things which have four legs and the reptiles and the flying beasts would be 100% fine to eat.

MS


Rom 14:17 for the kingdom of God is not food and drink, but righteousness and peace and joy in holy spirit."

Rom 14:20 Not on account of food demolish the work of God. All, indeed, is clean, but it is evil to the man who with stumbling is eating."

Col 2:16 Let no one, then, be judging you in food or in drink or in the particulars of a festival, or of a new moon, or of sabbaths,




"the laws of Kashrut"

could i get a specific chapnverse on that?

Act 10:15 And again, a second time, a voice came to him, "What God cleanses, do not you count contaminating!"



5/8/10 5:40 PM
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martial_shadow
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for someone who is so knowledgeable about the contents of the Bible you seem to need a lot of help keeping things in context and finding verses. You quoted the letters of John the Apostle. You did not quote Jesus. Jesus ate a Kosher diet during his lifetime. I don't understand why you find this strange. Jesus' Jewish followers also ate a Kosher diet during his lifetime and for a short time afterward. You will not find Jesus telling any of his Jewish followers during his life not to eat a Kosher animal. Even your quote from Acts on Peter is well within Halacha and no Jew would find it strange. Do you think that if you starved an Orthodox Jew for 5 days and then presented him with shrimp wrapped in bacon- he's not going to eat it? Of course he will, just like you.

Kosher laws:

To examine the marks in cattle (so as to distinguish the clean from the unclean) (Lev. 11:2)

Not to eat the flesh of unclean beasts (Lev. 11:4) (CCN93).

To examine the marks in fishes (so as to distinguish the clean from the unclean (Lev. 11:9) (affirmative).

Not to eat unclean fish (Lev. 11:11) (CCN95).

To examine the marks in fowl, so as to distinguish the clean from the unclean (Deut. 14:11) (affirmative).

Not to eat unclean fowl (Lev. 11:13) (CCN94).

To examine the marks in locusts, so as to distinguish the clean from the unclean (Lev. 11:21) (affirmative).

Not to eat a worm found in fruit (Lev. 11:41) (CCN98).

Not to eat of things that creep upon the earth (Lev. 11:41-42) (CCN97).

Not to eat any vermin of the earth (Lev. 11:44) (CCN100).

Not to eat things that swarm in the water (Lev. 11:43 and 46) (CCN99). .

Not to eat of winged insects (Deut. 14:19) (CCN96).

Not to eat the flesh of a beast that is terefah (lit torn) (Ex. 22:30) (CCN87).

Not to eat the flesh of a beast that died of itself (Deut. 14:21) (CCN86).

To slay cattle, deer and fowl according to the laws of shechitah if their flesh is to be eaten (Deut. 12:21) ("as I have commanded" in this verse refers to the technique) (CCA48).

Not to eat a limb removed from a living beast (Deut. 12:23) (CCN90).

Not to slaughter an animal and its young on the same day (Lev. 22:28) (CCN108).

Not to take the mother-bird with the young (Deut. 22:6) (CCN189).

To set the mother-bird free when taking the nest (Deut. 22:6-7) (CCA74).

Not to eat the flesh of an ox that was condemned to be stoned (Ex. 21:28) (negative).

Not to boil meat with milk (Ex. 23:19) (CCN91).

Not to eat flesh with milk (Ex. 34:26) (according to the Talmud, this passage is a distinct prohibition from the one in Ex. 23:19) (CCN92).

Not to eat the of the thigh-vein which shrank (Gen. 32:33) (CCN1).

Not to eat chelev (tallow-fat) (Lev. 7:23) (CCN88).

Not to eat blood (Lev. 7:26) (CCN89).

To cover the blood of undomesticated animals (deer, etc.) and of fowl that have been killed (Lev. 17:13) (CCA49).

Not to eat or drink like a glutton or a drunkard (not to rebel against father or mother) (Lev. 19:26; Deut. 21:20) (CCN106).
5/8/10 6:23 PM
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toelocku
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i didn't need all that, but what verses you know of with this exception for being hungry. where is this clause for hunger?

this 'context, context, context' is not proper biblical interpretation, not that context isn't important.

I said twice that Jesus would have ate kosher the vast majority of His life, but as were told through the spirit of Truth through the writings of Paul and the apostles, Jesus cared not of such things in the ultimate respect. All things are clean to whom they are clean.

Sorry this doesn't fit your understanding of MY MASTER, but I know Him, and you do not.


5/8/10 9:57 PM
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martial_shadow
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It is derived from pikuach nefesh. I do not know if such a concept exists in Christianity. There are 3 Biblical sources for pikuach nefesh (lit. to save a life). Lev 18:5, Ezek 20:11 and Neh 9:29. This lead to NUMEROUS debates about how to apply this exception to the law (that all laws save idol worship can be violated to save a life). For example, if someone were drowning on Shabbat- would throwing them a line and pulling them in (WORK by the Biblical definition) be permitted. It was ruled that this would be permitted because it upholds the commandment of pikuach nefesh. Among the other cases debated, it was discussed- if someone was travelling from Israel, and dwelt with the alien nations for a time, and became 'ill from lack of food' (that is the exact translation, though I assume starving would suffice) could he eat unkosher food that the gentiles would bring him. It was decided that if it would save his life, then yes- pikuach nefesh. There was even a discussion can a pregnant woman eat pork on Yom Kippur if that is all that;s available (yes she can if its all that's available or the doctor says withholding it could damage her or the baby). The major exemption to pikuach nefesh is idol worship. The minor ones are murder, rape, kidnapping (though I fail to see how rape or kidnapping could improve someone's health).

You can believe what you like about Jesus. Really, its ok. We fundamentally understand the Bible differently. There is nothing wrong with that.
5/9/10 2:00 PM
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toelocku
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ok, then...
5/10/10 9:54 AM
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770mdm
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 MS, I want to have you over my house for Shabbat...  Or Shavouos or something.  Where do you live?
5/10/10 1:14 PM
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martial_shadow
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Montreal, Canada. Unless you're in NY the chances of a meeting are slim.
5/10/10 3:12 PM
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770mdm
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Ever pass through Boston?

5/10/10 3:24 PM
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martial_shadow
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I had fun one night making fun of Harvard (as a Mcgill Redmen, its a requirement) and spent a lovely evening with some ladies in a bar called Red Eye. Good sized city and good mix of blue collar and white collar.

Might swing through around Hanukah.

MS

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