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HolyGround >> Physical Heaven Believers....Question?


5/10/10 12:39 PM
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toelocku
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Edited: 05/10/10 12:40 PM
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I've wondered(even when i believed the same)when Christians say, 'go to heaven'; where do you believe its located?
5/10/10 6:05 PM
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toelocku - I've wondered(even when i believed the same)when Christians say, 'go to heaven'; where do you believe its located?

 This go to heaven business is not biblical whatsoever.  There is a biblical sense that those who die are with God, but how this happens is never revealed.  The physical paradise (heaven is used to designate where God has dominion) will be the universe remade anew "New Heavens and New Earth" so the answer should be "at the resurrection we will be located right here."
5/10/10 8:33 PM
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toelocku
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how do you deal with Gods present state, iow...where is He now, and where is that?
5/10/10 10:39 PM
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martial_shadow
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In Torah- all it says is when we die, we are gathered to the place of our ancestors. That's all we know. Everything else is a mystery.
5/11/10 7:35 AM
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Grakman
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martial_shadow - In Torah- all it says is when we die, we are gathered to the place of our ancestors. That's all we know. Everything else is a mystery.

 Interesting. What happens to a person of mixed race?
5/11/10 8:12 AM
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Robert Wynne
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 In My Fathers house...there are many mansions.


Heaven is a term used to describe the stars and planets of outer space, by our ancestors, so, any connection between that term and Fathers House is strictly man-made and a feeble attempt to understand what cannot be comprehended.

Death does not carry the same weight now as it did in the time of King Solomon, as the Son has made the way open to all.  Some could argue that this abode of the Gods, is another dimension, as Michio Kaku, the famed scientist does. And some credence could be given to that, as we can now see deep into the heavens and no sign of such a place is visible, so an inter-dimensional location would make more sense.

Some who have medically died have claimed the white light and the spiritual peace and enlightment of seeing the Throne room. This would be acceptable in line with the rest of the story, as Christ did claim he was opening the way, and making the path clear.

While going to Heaven is very biblical for a Christian, and covered in the New Testament, other religions offer similiar versions of this path our spirit  will all go on, when the flesh is passed away.

so whether it be the book of the dead or any other religions version, one thing seems certain, we gotta travel a good distance to get there..:(
5/11/10 11:26 AM
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martial_shadow - In Torah- all it says is when we die, we are gathered to the place of our ancestors. That's all we know. Everything else is a mystery.

 Where does Sheol fit in this?
5/11/10 11:29 AM
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toelocku - how do you deal with Gods present state, iow...where is He now, and where is that?

 God is in heaven. ;-)  

That is the language used, but the truth is the Bible really doesn't explain "where" both God and the spiritual powers such as angels "dwell."  I think the concepts are beyond us.  Even multiple dimensions are at the edge of human understanding.  
5/11/10 1:44 PM
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toelocku
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martial_shadow - In Torah- all it says is when we die, we are gathered to the place of our ancestors. That's all we know. Everything else is a mystery.


the Torah speaks much of death, and what happens...


Psa 9:17 The wicked shall return to the unseen, All the nations, forgetful of Elohim.

its a place we 'return' to, think before you were born(thats what its like).


Psa 139:8 If I should climb to the heavens, You are there, And should I make my berth in the unseen, behold, You are there."


God is in Sheol, like He's in the heavens.


Psa 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of You; In the unseen, who shall acclaim You?


your thoughts stop.


Psa 31:17 O Jehovah, let me not be ashamed, For I have called Thee, let the wicked be ashamed, Let them become silent to Sheol.


those in Sheol are silent/no communication.


Ecc 9:10 All that thy hand findeth to do, with thy power do, for there is no work, and device, and knowledge, and wisdom in Sheol whither thou art going.


iow...your dead.


Isa 38:18 For Sheol doth not confess Thee, Death doth not praise Thee, Those going down to the pit hope not for Thy truth.


again no thoughts...


death is really 'nothing', and Jesus shows us here...

Joh 11:11 These things he said, and after this he saith to them, `Lazarus our friend hath fallen asleep, but I go on that I may awake him;'
Joh 11:12 therefore said his disciples, `Sir, if he hath fallen asleep, he will be saved;'
Joh 11:13 but Jesus had spoken about his death, but they thought that about the repose of sleep he speaketh.
Joh 11:14 Then, therefore, Jesus said to them freely, `Lazarus hath died;


Death is just like the sleep we take every night.


5/11/10 3:35 PM
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770mdm
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A person asleep is halachically considered a 60th dead.
5/11/10 4:19 PM
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toelocku
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no idea what that means^? 60thdead?
5/12/10 8:50 AM
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770mdm
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Edited: 05/12/10 9:18 AM
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http://www.torah.org/features/spirfocus/sleep.html
Rabbi Berel Wein:

Talmud Berachot3b
The Talmud tells us that sleep is 1/60th part of death. One part in 60 is the threshold of perception. Similarly, Shabbat is a "taste" of the World-to-Come. Its precisely 1/60th of the World-to-Come.

Anyway it's Rabbinic not so much Torah and maybe I was wrong to use the word Halacha (legal). 

5/13/10 10:55 AM
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770mdm
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When I  translate from English to Hebrew "Heaven" my translator says "Gan Eden" or Garden of Eden.  In the first line of Torah, when G-d created the Heaven's and the Earth most translate the word Shemyim as Heaven.  But when I put Shemyim in the translator it translates that word as sky.  So why is this so?  Commentators have grappled with this word for a while.  They think it's a doubled up word.  The first part is Shem meaning Fire and the second part Myim meaning water.  This dual word association led commentators to perceive that the idea of this word was a major concept of where we came from and where we go when we die.  Heaven.  But I feel the world should be more appropriately translated as stars.  Taking the idea of Shem, fire, and myim as it's plaural.  Martial_Shadow will recognize the Brocha, prayer, "al netilas Yodiam" Yod means hand and Yodiam means 'hands' so I'm saying Shem means fire and Shemyim means fires, as in stars.  G-d created the stars in the sky and the earth. 

If we were to look for Heaven I'd say we'd have to say we'd have to uncover what there is to say about the Garden of Eden.  Yes?  No?  Maybe?
5/13/10 12:54 PM
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770mdm
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The Garden of Eden.  The Garden itself isn't Eden, Adam and Eve were placed in the Garden.  The 'of Eden' could be anywhere.  As if to say Eden own's the Garden but it's not located in the Garden.  So to find what or where the Garden is we'd have to sift for the clues in the Torah but we'll never find Eden. 

5/13/10 11:33 PM
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reverend john
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heaven will be here when God has restored it all, and love and justice reigns

rev
5/14/10 8:58 AM
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770mdm
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This is what I don't like.  I try opening the door to good investigation but what happens?  Don't worry Heaven will be here when G-d restores it.  Okay fine.  I don't know if it's part of your vocabulary or what but this idea of not delving into the scriptures for answers and just hanging on the idea of faith is just squashing the fun not to mention the importance of looking for answers yourself.  Regardless of where you find your answers via internet or Rabbi, Priest etc. at least your looking.

5/14/10 9:19 AM
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reverend john
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Sorry dude, I had time to leave a quick comment not get into a study. Maybe you are on the wrong forum if you expect to be our personal rabbi. I have read a lot of your posts in the past and got into them, what you said on here was interesting but I haven't had the time to go over it yet

not sure about your religion but in mine patience is a virtue :)

rev
5/14/10 4:04 PM
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770mdm
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"heaven will be here when God has restored it all, and love and justice reigns"

Sorry for jumping down your throat, it's just a pet peeve of mine I guess.  This statement sort of stops the thread more then open doors to investigate.  I think Toelocku, i hope, was trying to encourage dialogue more then a faith based answer. 

Patience IS virtuous.  but your statement was matter of fact as opposed to asking someone to hold out for an answer.  Maybe you're setting yourself up to have that statement rebutted?  I just didn't catch your vibe here.  Anyway I was hoping for more here.

Maybe I'm upset at the connotation that what your saying Jesus will restore etc...  My thought was to look at what the Torah actually might be saying or implying.  It's not patience it's the feeling of getting served when there's so much more to say.  Yes?
5/14/10 7:23 PM
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reverend john
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well I read the thread title, and posted my five second reply. This is my position. Now further discussion can be had, but to be honest I don't feel the need to write lengthy diatribes about my position unless someone is interested in it first.

rev
5/17/10 10:51 AM
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770mdm
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I respect your position and your opinion and that you only had 5 seconds to put into this.  True, sometimes we can do without the uneeded diatribes, which I am guilty of.  But at the same time, blanket statements seem to just galvanize blind followers.  On a forum like this, I'm sure you know, that unless you back yourself up with something, maybe not a diatribe, but something supportive, gives to the conversation, yes?  Seeking Truth is what we're after yes?  Otherwise you're setting yourself up to a tennis match of "I believe this" "I believe that" How can you believe that" "How can you believe this?" sort of thing.  I just thought it was a good question and deserved dialogue and I thought that's what Toelocku was looking for when he posted it. 

5/17/10 11:33 AM
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reverend john
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I actually don't think it is that great of a question, I think I am much more concerned with how we live our lives now rather than speculation about the afterlife. The biggest import of the idea in my opinion is how we treat the physical world today. The Christian idea that everything important is spiritual or heavenly and that the world will be burned up, causes a very detrimental viewing of the present day resources and God's presence amongst the world

rev
5/17/10 3:11 PM
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770mdm
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You don't think it's a good question?  Why are you posting on this thread then?  G-d, I happen to find subjects needing a scriptural investigation massively facinating.  Does that take away from the notion that I too think we need to treat our world and each other in proper ways?  Nope.  And isn't that what we're doing right now?  Treating opposing views with proper conduct?  What about what the Torah has to say?  We still haven't investigated it. 
The rivers that come from Eden split into 4 rivers.  3 of which are sort of identified and one that isn't.  Why this metaphore?  What do the rivers have to do with the developement of humanity?  Or their correlation with the divine?  What does this section have to say about happiness?  And is Eden Heaven?  Any takers?

5/17/10 8:25 PM
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reverend john - I actually don't think it is that great of a question, I think I am much more concerned with how we live our lives now rather than speculation about the afterlife. The biggest import of the idea in my opinion is how we treat the physical world today. The Christian idea that everything important is spiritual or heavenly and that the world will be burned up, causes a very detrimental viewing of the present day resources and God's presence amongst the world

rev

 I don't think it is a Christian idea that "spiritual" and "material" are different.  I believe the reason post Industrial Revolution moderns think this way has to do with philosophical assumptions outside of Christianity that have primarily crept into the sects with lesser connections to historical Christian teaching.  The early Christians were clearly focused on the resurrection, however, since this gave them the courage to face their own deaths and believe that the grave no longer held dominion over human experience.  Also, the early Christians tended to not think of time in such a linear fashion like we do so there was a sense that the eschaton had already taken place and yet wasn't quite fulfilled.  This kairotic view of things did keep the emphasis on the present moment and how Christians lived in their daily lives rather than the modern version of securing a ticket off the planet and treating the material creation like something that can be used up since it will be destroyed anyway.
5/17/10 8:44 PM
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reverend john
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I disagree with you, the post constantinian church was just as heaven and earth dual kingdom as the present evangelicals.

770 I think it is interesting question, but what makes a good question? wrestling with concepts of where we go when we die, where God is, and that, does not really cause me to live my life in obedience to God, nor to follow Jesus with the whole of my being. No offense, but for the most part I think it is just a ploy of the adversary to get us both divided over, and entranced with things that actually are not that important to God. God wants justice, and mercy, and humbleness, both of our traditions say so. I do not see how these esoteric discussions lead us towards any of those things.

Which is why my answer was so brief. If there is an idea about eden, that somehow leads me towards a better life of justice, and love, then by all means enlighten me.

and that wasn't meant to be sarcastic

rev
5/17/10 9:27 PM
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Well it simply ain't so, but since your narrative of Anabaptist rationalism hinges on it being so I doubt I will ever convince you otherwise.  Meanwhile, it is demonstrated that it isn't so in the iconography, writings, monasticism and architecture of the "Post-Constantinian" Christians.  

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