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HolyGround >> Physical Heaven Believers....Question?


5/17/10 9:56 PM
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reverend john
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yes, of course you are right, you are right about everything and your church is the greatest

rev
5/18/10 12:19 PM
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770mdm
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Edited: 05/18/10 12:20 PM
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5/18/10 4:37 PM
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Ridgeback
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reverend john - yes, of course you are right, you are right about everything and your church is the greatest

rev

 Yawn.  Just because you are wrong about early Christian history doesn't mean you can turn it into an ad hominen attack.  This is something I have studied in detail and it is one of the things that stood out for me long before I conceived of becoming Orthodox. The notion that the desert Fathers thought of their movement to the deserts not simply as escaping from the cities, but rather as conquering wilderness for the Kingdom should say something about their views of ecology.  The nature of domed churches signifying not the reaching of Christians up to an unattainable heaven (as with later spires) but rather heaven coming down to earth should stand out.  The nature of icons as "windows into heaven" and the notion of holy places as "thin places" should all point out that the early Christians did not think in terms of material and spiritual being separate things or heaven being merely an otherwordly goal.  You can even see it in the character of Zosima in The Brothers Karamazov as he tells the story of his brother and conceives of paradise as all around us in the here and now if we would only see it and that stretches all the way to the 19th century.  That binary opposition of heaven and earth is a Western problem.  It stems from Enlightenment principles and particularly Western philosophical thinkers.  The fact that most Americans are actually Platonists (calling their bodies mere shells for their souls) and this isn't a problem in other parts of the world that were not influenced by western thought should say something about how we lost the thread in this case and they didn't. 

I am not right about everything, but I wouldn't be Orthodox if I didn't think it was right anymore than you would be a Christian anarchist.  It would be far more helpful if we discussed the merits of things rather than engaging in the "you only say that because you are Orthodox" fallacy.  Mainly I responded to your post because you are slighting the Christians of the past in order to construct a narrative whereby your generation and the early Christians were the right ones and the huge middle of history is lost to apostasy and the marriage of church and state.  
5/18/10 10:17 PM
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reverend john
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no, I was actually slighting the christians of the present, including the emerging church, but you always think you know everything, including what I am thinking

rev
5/18/10 11:26 PM
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Ridgeback
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More personal attacks.
5/21/10 8:50 AM
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770mdm
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If it's any consolation Rabbi Schneur Zalman of Liadi points out in his Kabbalistic work Shaar Yichud that the physical material we experience is not material but spiritualality sustained by Words.  The words are sustained by G-d.  He vivifies them, sustains them and iss-ifies them into existance.  If he were to stop sustaining these words they would dissapear from existance as if they never had existed at all.  G-d doesn't need to set a tree on fire in order to remove it from existance.  He simply deletes it out of the program as if it never existed at all.  The fact a tree would burn down means there is some intrinsic lesson he wants us to learn from.

5/23/10 8:59 PM
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Grakman
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If God could put us in material life on this planet, why couldn't he have different planets through out the universe where we would also live material existences? if the soul can be transported hither and thither without material means, or if the soul is our 'consciousness', we could easily be 'transformed' into 'heavenly beings' on other planets.

If it happened once, it can happen twice, no?
5/23/10 10:42 PM
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Ridgeback
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Grakman - If God could put us in material life on this planet, why couldn't he have different planets through out the universe where we would also live material existences? if the soul can be transported hither and thither without material means, or if the soul is our 'consciousness', we could easily be 'transformed' into 'heavenly beings' on other planets.

If it happened once, it can happen twice, no?

 Well actually I believe that the cosmos will be redeemed just like the body of Jesus was if that is what you mean.  But the main issue with what you are thinking about, if I understand you correctly, is that the whole creation is kind of like a wind up clock.  It is riddled with temporality and mortality.  So living in a material universe that was winding down would not match with biblical language about heaven.  I think it is very important to keep in mind that the new heavens and new earth are somehow made out of the old in the same way that a resurrected body is somehow made out of the stuff (usually the bones are the focus in Jewish thought) of the old body.  In fact, the raised body of Jesus even retains scars.  Maybe the new creation will bare the scars of human destruction in a raised state as well.

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