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JKD UnderGround >> Drumming & Self defense


5/13/10 10:00 AM
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Joe Maffei
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Discussing awareness with Roy prompted me to share this article with you. It to would be considered finesse training beyond the average punch and kick. There will be those who will not look deep into this or just don’t want to, then there will be other’s who will seek every opportunity to improve.
Music and Martial Arts
Martial Arts…(fighting) as approached from ( self perfection) the artsy learning aspect is no more then tone, beats, space, and time. Music!!! One might think this is a stretch, but it really is the same. Music is broken down into time and measured in beats. Example 4/4 time (a time signature) is 4 beats per measure and a quarter note gets one beat. The space between beats is broken down evenly into 25% value. How fast the measurement depends on the conductor or the tempo set on a metronome. ( a music clock so to speak.)
The silence between the beats is called a rest.
Martial Arts is based on striking, when scoring a hit this is a beat. In between the hits would be considered a rest. The distance and speed a strike has to travel will determine the timing. When the action is really moving fast it would be considered a quick tempo and visa/versa. Strikes can be performed in broken rhythm or in different patterns such as a rhythm of three or a triplet. Two strikes may be performed in the same time value as one and would be considered as 8th notes, doubled to 16th, 32nd and 64th, all in the same time signature.
If a hit is performed to a thick part of the body (thigh) you will hear a low thud or a base tone, whereas if you slap a face you will hear a more high pitch tone.
Many people feel that they have a problem with coordination, but really they just can’t hear the music of their own body.
Martial Arts is understanding your own music within, and then applying it externally.
It is simple to see what I mean by watching a striker because you can hear the hits, but what about a wrestler where the beats are not so pronounced, is the music still there? The music is always there, time never stops. Great Jazz musicians such as Ornett Coleman, John Coltrane and Thelonious Monk have shown, what you hear is there and what you don’t hear is still there.
Integrating Music and Martial Arts is what I call Avant-garde or my JKD. Anyone who wants to learn Martial Arts whether they realize it or not will be composing there own song.
5/18/10 1:22 AM
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WidespreadPanic
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Agree, Joe - there is a large association between MA and music theory. Grace notes, (insertions), tempo, double timing and the way learning sinawali increases your concept of subdividing the beat all aid the development of 'fast eyes' and working between the beats - iow, broken rhythm.

Chess is another great analogy - mainly the idea of tempo or 'stealing time'. That is you can make two moves to the opponent's one by stealing an extra beat (usually based on 'balance' or 'tempo'). If you are on the 'wrong foot' when trying to respond to a move such that you have to take one of your 'beats' to shift your step or balance or take a step then the opponent can steal a tempo.
5/19/10 7:40 AM
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twinkletoesCT
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Modern Self-Defense Center, Head Instructor
I remember reading a lot from Ed Parker on this topic
5/19/10 9:59 AM
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Joe Maffei
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WP Chess does have tempo flow and so does every thing we do. excellent point bro.

Chris, I read that about Ed as well, music and specifically drumming because of the nature of "hitting, percussion" makes the marriage equally compatible
I remember Vunak would ask me during seminars to explain to folks the timing and rhythm he was using in his technique, as related to drumming.

Usually folks make this topic complicated or pooh it, but really everyone has their own time/rhythm, some drummers play by ear, some fighters fight by instinct. But there may come a time where they want to improve their time/rhythm so now they might want to learn how to do this.

A guy told me he wants to get faster, I asked him how fast he is now? then came the blank look...:(

If you don't know how to answer this question how then can you improve on it. You have to learn to measure like any carpenter, cook, drummer, fighter. measuring is how drumming breaks down, measuring the time and distance between hits (beats)
A jab, cross, hook combination can be done so many ways hitting the exact same target.

"YOU", your punches have to travel a certain distance in regards to the length of your reach to hit a stationary point. it takes a certain amount of time to travel this distance, and this time will be different for a person with a different reach. In clinch range striking with an elbow will change how you use your timing because the distance is now shortened.
Most do this naturally but when you want to examine your timing in depth you need to be able to measure.

Because fighting takes 2, you now have accompaniment, or jamming. Not only do you need to measure your own time/rhythm but your opponents as well.

Watching Chuck Liddell you may think he has an awkward style, "No" he interprets time/rhythm in odd time. Odd meaning he feels in 3, 5, 7 etc. The average person feels in 2, 4, 6, 8, etc even time. So Chuck's way seems strange to most.

Cleaning up your technique can make you better but then understanding how to measure that technique will make you even better.
Sorry for the Long wind.

Joe..:)
5/31/10 11:00 PM
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m.g
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Joe,

Interesting thread.

Since you mentioned Roy, did you know Roy was a former musician? I think he played the sax. Anyway, I know at one time he was really into music.


I know Floyd Mayweather Jr isn't a musician but he did explain in a video interview about how he tries to find the opponent's rhythm and counter against that rhythm (hopefully that made sense). If I remember correctly he mentioned that was one of the secrets to his speed.

6/1/10 4:56 AM
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keseki
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Edited: 06/04/10 3:34 AM
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Roy Harris played slide trombone and valve trombone, among other instruments.
6/2/10 9:16 PM
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Joe Maffei
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Yes and no, martial arts uses timing, rhythm, beats, yes? these elements are not exclusive to martial arts right? but they are exclusive to drumming, drummers live by these elements. Kali uses sticks to hit or beat down the opponent using the same elements yes? And the sticks are an extension of the empty hand. it's your brain that directs your movement so if you improve how you brain interprets the above elements that can only lead to a better perception to the above.

Why would someone like Mayweather take the time to point this topic out if he didn't feel as though it was worth discussing.
6/18/10 3:32 AM
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shen
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Edited: 06/18/10 3:33 AM
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I play the tambourine --which is part of the drum family.

Maybe I'm off base, but it definitely gives me some confidence on the street.

6/20/10 5:19 PM
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Majic Sam
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Edited: 06/20/10 7:24 PM
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It's very difficult to explain,but I started boxing and drumming when I was 10 years old.I don't want to come off as a master of either art,but I'm pretty much at ease in the ring,or onstage.The height of both,for myself,is in the unpredicable and improvised nature of rhythmic applications.<br /><br />I could go on,but in combat when combined with constant range and level change,broken rhythm will give you a distinct advantage as will the hand speed and control gained from lots of drumming.<br /><br />Again,difficult for me to explain,but I also like working on Wing Chun dummies because you can literally play it like a drum (whole notes,8ths,quarters,etc)and can hear the difference between sloppy and solid techniques.

edit-Another great benefit to rhythmic awareness is in timing advanced feints and footwork,which is usually in a cadence of half and quarter beats.
6/20/10 8:13 PM
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Joe Maffei
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Sam, you know, but to others who don't know and can't comprehend will never know until they experience it for themselves which I doubt, because to them it doesn't exist.

It's like explaining to a plumber the power of BJJ, they think it's just rolling around but to those who know, it's much much more.

So Sam, enjoy what you have.
6/20/10 8:53 PM
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Majic Sam
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Joe,

Thank you for your encouragement.I encourage others to find out for themselves,the benefits of rhythmic applications re: musicality breakdown.

If I can add (off the top of my head) anything as far as WHO to listen to,it would be John Coltrane,Miles Davis,Funkadelic,James Brown,Zappa and Meshuggah,for improvisational unpredictabilty and control.They might be hard,at first, to get your head around,but IMO they are the musical equivilents of Bruce,Muhammed,Wong,Mayweather,Inosanto,A. Silva,etc...not into set patterns,or cadence
6/20/10 9:39 PM
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Majic Sam
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Not to overstay my participation on this thread,but consider the hair trigger perfect timing of a prime Saku's single leg takedown off of Rampage's opening overhand right,or almost any prime Tyson's bob and weave entry into a big overhand right k.o...Amazing timing and rhythmic precision.

These same application and attributes come into play hugely during real life weapons disarms and reversals.Get off first with commitment and control.
10/22/10 4:24 PM
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Bull_in_chinashop
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 I'm a drummer and it certainly played a factor into my timing and rythm in my standup game.
I can feel the big guys throwing combos on the quarter notes and the little guys flurrying on the eight notes. I can feel my pivot steps and slips on the "and" eighth note beat and the counter on the next.

10/22/10 5:09 PM
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Majic Sam
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Edited: 10/24/10 4:19 AM
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In MA's,as in music,timing and phrasing is everything.It's all about how you get in to a solo.Nobody remembers how you get out...But,in MA's,that is also very important.The fencing mentality,changing angles,and unpredictablity.Miles Davis loved boxing because he applied it to music.One of the top jazz/rock bass players,Jeff Berlin,wrote a great tune for the Bill Bruford Band,titled "Joe Frazier",from the "Gradually Going Tornado" recording.Upon first listen,very unpredictable,check it out,hard to tell where the head line starts and stops.Guro Inosanto wrote a great article,likening an advanced fighter's rhythmic unpredictability to that of a free-form jazz musician's approach.Sighted saxaphonist Pharoah Saunders,inparticular.I was very suprised that he knows about Pharoah,but an apt comparison.
10/25/10 12:37 PM
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John Frankl
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Playing the drums really well likely requires a lot of time and discipline. In this sense, it is like playing the piano really well, or getting through medical school, or being a good father, or....

Okay, in any case, if being really busy woodshedding, because you care a lot more about getting good at drumming than you do about fighting with other grown men, then it is definitely good self defense. If the sense of timing you get from that makes you good at punching other grown men, I am not so sure.

I can see the boxing comparison holding up, because you have two highly-trained men facing off under somewhat predictable, due to common rules and common objectives, conditions. Under those conditions, a command of rhythm, including strategically breaking it, could be quite advantageous.

In "self defense" I'm not so sure. What if there is not rhythm to coopt and to break? I think too many people go back to the Panther Video version of self defense--whether it be with empty hands, stick, or knife--as resempling a kickboxing match. Two dudes with short shorts and tall socks squaring off and trying to break each other's rhythm (and to hold their hands like Bruce did in the movies). I don't buy it.
10/25/10 4:49 PM
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Demitrius Barbito
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I am avery accomplished musician. There I said it!

I tried the whole drumming thing with martial arts etc and I rejected that many years ago. The conga was sold and I bought lunch with the $30.00 I got for a $75.00 drum.

I find personally that much of the "traditional propaganda" is being seen for what it is.

I've had people email me and come train with me from all over the world who had previously trained with "other established entities" in the US and said they were less than pleased with the wasted time of having the "value of the conga and trapping and lineage explained to them"...

When I wanted to learn Kali I paid attention to every detail, historical or otherwise. But at one point I didn't want to learn Kali or JKD or Thai Boxing. I just wanted to learn how to put down a bigger, stronger attacker, who was probably come at me when I wasn't paying attention or wake me up at 2:00am with a crushing blow to the head.

It was when I had framed it it that way that everything changed. I didn't need a vehicle for self glorification. I didn't want papers or peer recognition.

I have now moved away from anything that resembles paranoia. There was some of that in the mix for a while. (Embarrassing admission).

Training is practical and fun.

I went through a home invasion when I was younger. I've been attacked by a WAY bigger guy when I wasn't looking etc. BUT, those things happened more than a decade ago and circumstances played into it all greatly.

Have fun.

Do not sit around trying to figure out what color code of awareness your on.

DFo not get involved in traditional strongholds.

Unless you want to that is.

Demi "Local Guitar Hero" Barbito
10/25/10 10:17 PM
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Majic Sam
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Do you have any guitar clips,Demi?
10/27/10 7:19 PM
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Demitrius Barbito
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Oh ya... Check me out Yo...

(I'm an idiot by the way...)

I just became obsessed with shred guitar...!!!???


http://www.youtube.com/SuperFred#p/u/7/UJYOlmvbFMQ
10/28/10 6:21 AM
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keseki
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Oddly enough, jazz musicians are discussing whether a martial arts study can improve their musical abilities, and if so, which art? Example of such a forum for musicians is below, but I don't recall off hand where the martial arts thread is. People were mentioning aikido and Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu among others. But I do recall that the consensus was that your musical abilities will probably improve more if you spend that martial arts time practicing your instrument instead (or just listening analytically to music).

http://forums.allaboutjazz.com/forumdisplay.php?f=34&order=desc&page=11
10/28/10 2:07 PM
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cprevost
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Well, I think the skeptic always has to come out when someone says that something completely unrelated to the task at hand will improve your game. Maybe it will, but when you have an extraordinary claim it requires extraordinary evidence. Just the way it is.

Like John I can buy it to a certain extent when it comes to boxing. Boxing movement is very rhythmic. You sway back and forth and bob and weave. When I watch 2 guys go at it there is often a rhythm to it that's clear to see. Boxing to music that has a strong beat behind it has helped me to identify that rhythm. Which has helped me to break the rhythm more easily.

Now all I gotta do is carry my ipod at all times in case something goes down...
10/28/10 10:53 PM
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Majic Sam
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Not so sure where to go with this thread,but nobody can beat me up better than I beat myself up...All this being equal,I would rather put money on Majic Sam,the improvisational and aware drummer,rather than Majic Sam,the dancing fool,disco partner.Man drum.Woman dance!

BTW,Demi.Shred happy,are ye?Check out guitarist,the late Shawn Lane,for unpredictable,exploratory,no-style-as-style.Even Allan Holdsworth had to admit that Shawn was the bestest.
12/16/10 11:37 AM
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Joe Maffei
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Thank you for responding people.
I agree with DEMI, "have fun" If ya want to learn rhythm to improve your movement, I think it's a good idea.

"self Defense" if there is not rhythm to coopt and to break....you are not fighting.

Coaches:

1.Strength and conditioning: weights, kettle bells, bands, etc Nobody uses this equipment when they fight?
2.Diet and nutrition: Nobody is eating when they fight?
3.Meditation and visualization: You better not be daydreaming when you fight?
4.Flexibility: No one is stretching when they fight?
5.Timing & rhythm: No one is counting when they fight?

I hope you can see this makes no sense, I would bet that if Randy, or Jackson brought in a timing and rhythm coach. This conversation might be moot.

Check this out, the guys who say their timing and rhythm: improved their fighting were drummers!!!
The guys who doubt this is possible ....are not.


hmmmmmm??????
12/17/10 3:11 PM
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Demitrius Barbito
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There was a time when I thought the conga was "helping" me and my students with some aspect or attribute of fighting. In my experience it did not.

Understanding rhythm HELPED TREMENDOUSLY. The conga was not the best way to understand rhythm as it applies to fighting IMO.

Eventually we just used the conga as atmosphere for some sparring. It has that primal/jungle warrior thing going. It was motivational and even fun for quite some time.

After a time it became something that I felt distracted from the training and I removed that element.

That's my experience.
12/17/10 8:01 PM
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Joe Maffei
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Demi yeah the conga might not be the best. the drum kit is where it's at because you have all four limbs working independently. If you get pretty good you can actually think in four different time patterns so when you go back to putting combinations together you just get much better coordination.
I think if it's used as a supplement folks could get a lot out of it. I think having a kit drummer come by and watch you move might really help especially if he trains himself as well.
12/17/10 11:05 PM
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Majic Sam
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As with drumming,all well placed stand up starts from the ground,up,not the opposite,hands down to feet.

Joe is correct.Drumset co-ordination/combinations/patterns are more involved and applicable to martial arts than is conga,which is more for rhythmic implication/audio awareness.

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