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Australasia UnderGround >> attn: angus friend- guillotine in gi illegal?


5/22/10 8:55 AM
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walbjj
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hey angus, not sure u will be reading this as u probably dont frequent the forums much, but seeing as ur the abjjf head ref i thought i might as well try and see if u can give an answer to this.
a thread on the bjj forums is mentioning whether the guillotine is legal or not in bjj competitions.
i am pretty sure that according to ibjjf rules, that the guillotine is illegal, unless u have a hand in the lapel.
i recall u got an oppenent dq'd when u were a purple belt because he had that exact same position on u.
imo, i think it should be allowed, as its legal in no-gi comps, i dont see how a jacket will make that much difference

also, why does the abjjf have different rules regarding straight footlocks for whitebelts (ie, they allow them to use it), when the ibjjf doesnt allow straight footlocks for white belts)
anyway, thanks for any replies
5/23/10 10:41 PM
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PeterIrl
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I thought the afbjj only allowed arm-in guillotines?

What's their standing on straight kneebars for whitebelts?
5/24/10 1:43 AM
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JSho
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Under IBJJF rules:
* Guillotine neck cranks are illegal at all levels
* Guillotine chokes are legal at all levels 13 years old and up.
* Straight footlocks are legal for white belts 16 years old and up (and indeed are the only foot/leg submission any white/blue/purple belt can do).
* Kneebars are only legal for brown and black belts.

IBJJF Move Legality Matrix


5/24/10 2:30 AM
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PeterIrl
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Interesting, last few afbjj comps I was at, they specified no head pulling in triangles.

Also, how is a kneebar any more dangerous than a straight ankle lock?
5/24/10 2:46 AM
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JSho
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re: kneebar/ankle you're joking surely?

Triângulo Puxando a Cabeça/Triangle and pulling the head is illegal only for 15 years old and younger. Anyone telling you different is incorrect (unless at a stretch the IBJJF have changed the rules very recently and not changed either the portuguese or english rules pages on the respective websites).
5/24/10 3:04 AM
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PeterIrl
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JSho - re: kneebar/ankle you're joking surely?

Triângulo Puxando a Cabeça/Triangle and pulling the head is illegal only for 15 years old and younger. Anyone telling you different is incorrect (unless at a stretch the IBJJF have changed the rules very recently and not changed either the portuguese or english rules pages on the respective websites).



No, I'm not. Last afbjj comp I was at I saw some whitebelts yanking away on peoples ankles with NFI what they were doing. If you get people who don't know how to apply/defend ankle locks they can be every bit as dangerous as an incorrectly or over exhuberantly applied kneebar.
5/24/10 4:30 AM
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dojo stormer
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXkEYHb2hSk

here is the match between angus friend and dimitrius tsitos at the 2008 pan pacs purple absolute.

at around the 7.10 mark. no arm in, just a head guillotine.

i remember this rule from way back and i thought it was always strange but never questioned it.
5/24/10 7:15 AM
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walbjj
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wat?? wristlocks r illegal for whitebelts? wtf?

5/25/10 12:32 AM
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angus friend
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Hi everyone,

looks like there have been some minor changes in the international rules. While we definitely base our rules on theirs, there is no requirement for us to exactly match what they have listed. A prime example of this is guillotines, where we have a flat ban for the neck-only guillotine because we deem it indistinguishable whether a crank or choke is being applied. We are proud to be different in this respect as we are looking to protect the neck at all levels as much as possible. And a reminder, these rules are identical in the AFBJJ for gi and no-gi.

To be honest I haven't checked about pulling on the head with triangle of late, although I'll look it up now that it appears to have changed. Wrist locks have always only been from blue, to my knowledge.

It appears we are in line with the international federation on straight ankles for u16 through to white belt.

I'm at work and don't have all the answers right now, happy to keep checking this thread however.

Thanks fellas,
angus.
5/25/10 4:00 AM
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angus friend
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And you're right, I don't often check these threads. Queries should be sent to referee@afbjj.com
5/26/10 4:59 AM
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BenBJJ
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Riduculous to not be allowed to pull the head for a triangle. Lift the hips and pull the head = triangle submission.
5/27/10 11:30 PM
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codemonkey76
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BenBJJ - Riduculous to not be allowed to pull the head for a triangle. Lift the hips and pull the head = triangle submission.


Only white belts finish a triangle that way, that puts undue stress on the neck and normally submission by way of neck crank.

You should crunch, not lift your hips, also although pulling the head will increase the pressure, it is unneccessary, just hook the leg or free arm to increase the angle and squeeze, or you can even hug your shin to help your squeeze.
5/27/10 11:57 PM
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BenBJJ
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Edited: 05/27/10 11:57 PM
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Orly?
5/28/10 12:00 AM
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BenBJJ
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Guess all the BB that I have trained with got it wrong.
5/28/10 12:09 AM
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codemonkey76
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Edited: 05/28/10 12:12 AM
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i love the quote from Ryan in this:
"I'm not squeezing my knees using sissy little muscles (abductors), I wanna use man muscles (hamstrings / quads)"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsNtpxKVn5M

I would take Ryan Hall's word over pretty much everyone... he has been submitting fools with the triangle over 200 times in competition.
5/28/10 12:15 AM
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codemonkey76
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OK, I was way to harsh in my initial posts, obviously as you pointed out, not just white belts finish straight on pulling the head and bridging the hips.

It is just less efficient than getting a perpendicular angle and using your strong muscles (quads / hamstrings) to finish.
5/28/10 1:24 AM
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ReallyO
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I don't pull the head in training, if i get enough angle I should get it without pulling the head.

Pulling the head works, but its not the most efficient way. Focussing more on the angle means you can close it more easily on bigger guys as it ensures you close the legs over the neck instead of half across the back/shoulder, forcing you to grab your ankle to adjust and putting a lot more pressure on your legs.

I COULD finish arm bars with my legs wide open and an epic pull/hip thrust, but I find it better to just squeeze my knees for a higher fulcrum, and avoid the crushed nuts. Same kinda thing IMO.
5/30/10 6:42 PM
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blakGSR
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angus friend - a flat ban for the neck-only guillotine because we deem it indistinguishable whether a crank or choke is being applied.


I agree with the rule.
It takes years of practice to understand the subtle differences required to perform a guillotine crank versus a guillotine choke. And in competition the pendulum swings even easier when you throw in added aggression and speed.

Still can't understand why it's allowed in competitions like the NSWBJJF No-Gi comp though.
5/30/10 10:51 PM
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codemonkey76
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I agree with the rule.
It takes years of practice to understand the subtle differences required to perform a guillotine crank versus a guillotine choke. And in competition the pendulum swings even easier when you throw in added aggression and speed.


While I agree that it takes years of practice to perform a successful, technical guillotine choke.

I disagree with the rule, and think it is pretty obvious which is being applied. I can't really see how you could apply a neck crank guillotine, while crunching (as the guillotine should be finished).

The main way lower belts attempt to finish a guillotine is to arch their back and basically try to pull the persons head off. I think a better option would be to just disallow arching with an armless guillotine, similar to the no triangle pulling the head rule.

I also think without defining what a guillotine is, in the rules, flat out banning all armless guillotines, throws into question a lot of chokes that could be classed as guillotines.
5/30/10 11:55 PM
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Cuts
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I remember doing a seminar with Fernando Paradeda and he showed a really good Guillotine choke and he basically called everyone in the UFC " idiots " for not knowing how to finish a guillotine properly.

The way he teaches it basically chokes you, the way it should and does not " CRANK " the neck at all.
5/31/10 8:28 AM
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codemonkey76
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Cuts - I remember doing a seminar with Fernando Paradeda and he showed a really good Guillotine choke and he basically called everyone in the UFC " idiots " for not knowing how to finish a guillotine properly.

The way he teaches it basically chokes you, the way it should and does not " CRANK " the neck at all.


Does the finish involve CRUNCHING or ARCHING?
6/13/10 8:24 AM
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geraldbb
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Thanks JSho, great matrix!
6/14/10 6:49 PM
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codemonkey76
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the matrix shown is only for IBJJF, it does not apply to AFBJJ rules... Here is an equivalent one for AFBJJ rules, let me know if I made any mistakes.

[IMG]http://i45.tinypic.com/33e2d7k.png[/IMG]
6/14/10 7:02 PM
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codemonkey76
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doh, forgot the no-arm guillotine, here is an updated one.


http://i47.tinypic.com/2vnfmhh.png
6/15/10 8:51 PM
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Goodo
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Thanks for that - I would've been mighty pissed if someone got me with a wrist lock and then found out after that they were legal.

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