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Judo/Sambo UnderGround >> Judo ground rules difference from BJJ?


5/22/10 8:17 PM
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LetsTalkItOut
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I trained or tried to train in judo for a couple weeks(before I quit) when I was living in Davis and it was the toughest thing I've been through. Judo is no joke. I found a few things that I thought were interesting and I never put too much thought into it but now I'm curious.

I noticed:
White belts are not allowed to practice armbars.
The sensei allowed me to wear my bjj gi and blue belt.
Whenever I armbarred anyone, I got slammed on my head literally every single time from every belt. I was later told it's because if I get lifted into the air we would get restarted.
Are slams legal on the ground?

So what are the difference between the rules in bjj and judo in regards to the ground?
5/23/10 2:51 AM
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JoshuaResnick
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you just asked for a book.
5/23/10 4:56 AM
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LetsTalkItOut
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Yeah I just asked my pop about the lifting thing and he hasn't heard of it(hasn't done judo for 30 years).

He did mention not being allowed to choke using my arms as a grip, like arm triangles. That's a big one right there I didn't know. I guess I just want to know about the things a bjjer has to get used to when starting to do judo.
5/23/10 6:56 AM
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judoblackbelt
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You should stop the arm bar when lifted off the mat and your opponent cannot slam you. He was probably responding to your continuous pressure when they expected you to stop ( matte). Try to learn the throwing/mat techniques of judo. Maybe forget about your submissions (for a while) and learn control/pins/submissions (they teach you). On the mat, cannot stretch the spine, crank the neck, attack the knee/ankles in general that would cause injury. If you are skilled in BJJ then use your bottom guard sweeps in judo. Learn transition attacks (throws to turtle/prone postions on the mats). In general a BJJ should focus on what I have desribed. There isn't enough time in judo (3-5 seconds) to setup on the ground what you are good at from your back. So learn the other 99% of judo. I have been to seminars of world/olympic champions/players and maybe 1% was fighting off your back. They teach standup/mat work ratio as much as 50/50, but seldom from the bottom guard.
5/23/10 7:50 AM
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LetsTalkItOut
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Thanks JBB, when I start doing judo again I plan on learning JUDO. I'm not looking to figure out a way to work my bjj into judo, even though I'm sure there are things that translate really well. But Judo is a completely different sport imo and I just don't want to waste the other persons time doing things that are illegal or not practical. Also wanted to say my judo experience was close to 5 years ago when I was a bluebelt and even then I had made a clear distinction between judo and bjj.

In hindsight, they were most likely slamming me because I held the armbar position(not cranking or anything). Does the lifting apply to when they are in my full guard?

Is it for real, that as a whitebelt I won't be allowed to do armbars? Any other illegal subs that are normally legal that whitebelts aren't allowed to do?

Is there a link to a place where the rules are posted?
5/23/10 9:34 AM
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judoblackbelt
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Yes, the lifting applies to when you are in full guard. Remember judo players do not want to waste time/energy in the guard if you have their arm and are attacking and they can stop play by lifting you off the mat.
As a white belt you are allowed chokes (13 and over), (no pressure directly on the windpipe)and arm bars as long as you are an adult (17 and over). We have had BJJ/submission fighters x/o into judo and most of their wins at the white belt level were by armbar. Many do not develope the throwing aspect of judo. It is hard to get a competition win as you progress fighting off your back. Go to www.judoinfo.com which explains the rules and is an excellent website for beginners. New leg grab rules for 2010 I have a power point file I can email to you.
5/23/10 1:39 PM
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judo man
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Don't be afraid to ask questions to your training partners or Sensei regarding what you can do and what you can't. Most people don't have problems answering and you won't come off as a jerk that is deliberately trying to injure them by doing illegal stuff.

Neck crancking is illegal, like when you do a triangle, you can do a triangle, but pulling the neck down with your hands is not ok. Same with the mata leao (RNC), or hadakajime. The strangle is applied only to the trachea and not apply downwards pressure on the neck.

Judo hadakajime
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JQhHvwuM2o&feature=related

Sankakujime
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IgwbIG-09-A&feature=related
5/23/10 7:00 PM
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LetsTalkItOut
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Thanks, I haven't stepped up to a Judo dojo yet because I plan on doing it next month when I visit up north for a while. So I don't have anyone to ask.

I'm going to check out that site right now.
5/24/10 1:29 AM
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JoshuaResnick
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no. no. no.

you CAN pull the head down in a triangle as bringing the chin into the chest is not illegal and does not constitute a neck crank... think about it, if that was illegal, then so would several common pins be illegal-- like the kesa gatame where you try to get uke to tap by bringing up his head or the tateshiho version done from both lapels with your shoulder forcing uke's head up and into his own chest... perfectly legal.

judo just sees newaza differetnly.

1. chokes must be chokes, not jaw-breakers. so, you'd better be under the chin or let go. you cannt tie a noose around the neck with the gi, so the chokes that use the bottom of the lapel in BJJ are no good in Judo.

2. nobody gives a damn about hooks. you are either past the guard and pinning or you are not. getting "hooks" in on the back is a waste of time in a tournament unless you are amazing.

3. arm triangles are fine. in fact, it is a popular pin known as kata gatame. one of my favorites. not easy to do in a tournament though as judokas tend to be brick shithouse strong compared to guys in BJJ.

4. if a submission is applied in newaza the finish must be in newaza. thus, if the guy can pick you up then you didn't keep him in newaza and the ref will stop it. it is either that or, theoretically, you'd have to allow the guy applying the submission to continue and also allow the guy who is defending to slam the living crap out of the fella in return. BJJ wants the submission at all costs, so they disallow the slam and give the unfair advantage to the guy doing the submission-- Judo goes the side of caution and just calls matte.

5. yes, flying and standing submissions are legal, but must follow the rules. when doing a flying submission you'd better allow uke an opportunity to submit. when appliying a standing submission you cannot use it as leverage to throw somebody (ie, use a standing armlock and throw seionage at the same time) and you cannot jump to the groundto finish it. you must go to the ground after uke does and be under full control.

6. newaza is an option in competitive Judo, it is what happens after you stand up and fight like a man. if you are not good enough to get people to the mat, keep them there and finish them quickly then you are not good in tournament newaza. you cant complain about people being defensive if you were too slow about getting things started and progressing or too stupid and letting them mount a strong defense.

7. judo does not time newaza. it is based on the official's determination of you making progress. if s/he thinks you are getting stalled out, even for a few moments, then matte is an appropriate call.
5/24/10 2:27 AM
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LetsTalkItOut
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Edited: 05/24/10 2:27 AM
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Whoa so much rules in judo...just found the wiki and the ijf website.

I must have had the wrong info, holds that don't require the use of the gi is completely fine? Like arm triangles, RNCs, americanas, omoplatas, etc.

And a choke needs to be a wind choke not a blood choke? If someone moves their chin from my forearm to the crook of my elbow I'll be forced to stop right?
5/24/10 2:50 AM
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gbutts
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LetsTalkItOut - Whoa so much rules in judo...just found the wiki and the ijf website.

I must have had the wrong info, holds that don't require the use of the gi is completely fine? Like arm triangles, RNCs, americanas, omoplatas, etc.

And a choke needs to be a wind choke not a blood choke? If someone moves their chin from my forearm to the crook of my elbow I'll be forced to stop right?


"blood chokes" are allowed. If someone moves their chin from your forearm to the crook of your elbow you will be forced to stop because that is a neck crank; however, cross-facing (at the top of the forehead) is allow to reposition the submission within the submission progression concept.
5/24/10 3:08 AM
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LetsTalkItOut
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Okay, that's probably where the confusion is at. If my arm is under his chin and around his neck, he moves his chin to the crook of my elbow then I'll get stopped because it's considered at that point a neck crank.

Is there a distinction that blood is defined if using the gi, but cranks are defined if arms are used? ie Lapel chokes are considered blood chokes. But if I use my arms(RNC) it's considered a neck crank.

Fuck maybe I should just wait till July and ask the sensei face to face.
5/24/10 3:37 AM
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gbutts
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LetsTalkItOut - Okay, that's probably where the confusion is at. If my arm is under his chin and around his neck, he moves his chin to the crook of my elbow then I'll get stopped because it's considered at that point a neck crank.

Is there a distinction that blood is defined if using the gi, but cranks are defined if arms are used? ie Lapel chokes are considered blood chokes. But if I use my arms(RNC) it's considered a neck crank.

Fuck maybe I should just wait till July and ask the sensei face to face.


RNC is not considered a neck crank until the arm goes over the chin and it moves the face/neck to crank. I don't why more judo people don't use it. You will learn the rules as you practice judo. Judo will teach you to do your submission faster. lapel chokes are considered blood chokes but there are other blood chokes to don't involve the lapel that are legal in judo. When i started judo people had to remind over and over that ,risk lock,knee,ankle submission were not allowed. We (judo wrestlers,bjj and sambo) are all grapplers with a different spin on how we things so just be open to learning and you'll be happy.
5/24/10 4:17 AM
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LetsTalkItOut
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Thanks for the help. I've decided I'll just deal with it when the time comes.
5/24/10 3:50 PM
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judoblackbelt
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That is why I referred you to the rules on the website. Josh and GButts really tried to help explain the details. I could tell by your questions their was not clarity between what is allowed in BJJ vs judo. Buy some books on judo and it they will illustrate techniques that are allowed and some general "don't(s). Many of the techniques you learned in BJJ won't be applicable in judo due to not enough time to set-up. That is why we go for the pins first and submission second unless the submission presents itself initially or developes quickly.
5/24/10 7:46 PM
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JoshuaResnick
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the RNC that is used in BJJ is just a blood-choke modification of hadaka jime-- which is a wind choke. perfectly legal.

hell, so long as your are not bending uke's neck backwards (ie camel clutch style) then the fear of being called for a neck crank while applying an actual choke that is under the shin is pretty slim.
5/26/10 10:25 PM
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JuDoK@
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4.2
6/15/10 4:12 PM
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chris colquitt
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I asked my sensei a little while back about the standard hadaka jime and how it could be legal even though the rules specifically state you can't attack the trachea. his response was, "you're not attacking the trachea, you're attacking the caratod artery... the treacha just gets in the way."
6/17/10 1:34 AM
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FreestyleJJ
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"4. if a submission is applied in newaza the finish must be in newaza. thus, if the guy can pick you up then you didn't keep him in newaza and the ref will stop it. it is either that or, theoretically, you'd have to allow the guy applying the submission to continue and also allow the guy who is defending to slam the living crap out of the fella in return. BJJ wants the submission at all costs, so they disallow the slam and give the unfair advantage to the guy doing the submission-- Judo goes the side of caution and just calls matte."

Is it just me, but couldn't the rule on picking someone up off the ground during a submission be improved? Possibly for both bjj and judo? Watching some of the judo newaza videos on here the last few days got me thinking about it. So many instances where tori has a solid juji and uki can't pick his opponent up more than an inch off the ground, and they get a matte. There is no way there's any chance of there being a slam in those instances. All that is happening is that uki is getting a get out of jail free card.

What if the rule was if you can pick him up so his head is above your waist line, you get a matte? That could even work in bjj possibly, since there realistically is a good chance of a slam there. More fair for the defender and more realistic for the attacker. What do you guys think?
6/18/10 1:31 PM
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JoshuaResnick
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if i pick somebody up to my hips to stop the newaza, then how am i going to guarantee that i put him down safely or that he doesnt try to intentionally arch his spine under me and force me to either snap his neck & back or have my arm broken?

while i understand what you are saying, you have to consider the risks.
6/18/10 2:56 PM
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Judo Scott
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I like the rules as is.
6/18/10 8:47 PM
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FreestyleJJ
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I would think if the interpretation I said was used, that if you were able to pick them up that high, they probably won't have enough pressure to put the juji on. Maybe I'm wrong there. I would say, it would also be illegal to slam them in the same rule.

I would also think that if you can't pick them up that high without getting your arm broken, then you should be forced to tap out. Lifting them that high would show that you're not in danger of getting tapped out and that you could slam them, but aren't allowed to, so matte. I would assume that to get them that high, you have your arms clasped and your arm isn't extended. If you can't get them high enough, then it's your responsibility to tap out, as it is in all other situations.

I think that situation where the uki gets a get out of jail free card isn't realistic, so then people would be taught more often that you need to tap out in that situation instead of waiting for the referee to save you. Same in the opposite. If you're the tori. You get lifted up high, the realistic verision is that you will get slammed, so there's a matte, to avoid the slam.

Maybe I'm wrong, you could be right about it being a lot more dangerous, but this happens in bjj all the time as well as was mentioned earlier in the thread. Uki picks tori up and carries him around the mat above his head, but isn't allowed to slam. Insert a matte there, and keep the no slamming.So maybe that shows that it is workable.
6/18/10 8:49 PM
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FreestyleJJ
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"Having said that, the judo rule seems the most fair. 'I can't slam you, then let the sub go.' Or, 'hold the sub and let me slam.' "

That's the one thing I'm kind of nit picking at. That is fair, unless the guys head is only 1 inch off the ground and that's all the higher you can get him. Tori doing the armbar is in no danger in this situation, so I think it's very unrealistic to stop under those circumstances.
6/19/10 8:19 AM
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FreestyleJJ
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I had heard that rule mentioned somewhere before. That's what made me think of it.
6/19/10 2:12 PM
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anthonyMI
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My guess is that white belts aren't allowed to do armbars in order to force them to get better at holding top position before going for submissions.

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