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Judo/Sambo UnderGround >> Judo ground rules difference from BJJ?


6/20/10 1:30 AM
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Bently
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anthonyMI wrote:My guess is that white belts aren't allowed to do armbars in order to force them to get better at holding top position before going for submissions. "

No, it is so they won't spazz out and injure each other. Also, learning how to control uke (and themselves) by learning oseakomi first before they start choking and armbarring.

Ben
6/20/10 11:35 PM
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HoldYerGround
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FreestyleJJ -  That is fair, unless the guys head is only 1 inch off the ground and that's all the higher you can get him. Tori doing the armbar is in no danger in this situation, so I think it's very unrealistic to stop under those circumstances.


Yeah, I wish the rule was, "when Tori's head comes higher than knee height of Uke matte must be called" or something. Maybe "Matte can be called when Tori's head is anywhere between Uke's knees and hips. When Tori's head is at Uke's hips, matte must be called immediately."
6/21/10 10:16 PM
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Newaza freak
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Edited: 06/21/10 10:55 PM
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Why did judo eliminate strangles with the lower end of the lapel? Bjj uses these strangles to loop the neck all the time, as it adds a lot more opportunities for choking,thus making ne-waza much more appealing and interesting for everyone involved. Oh and to this day, I have yet to see anyone in bjj seriously injured because of it,therefore it must be one of those techniques that was just eliminated becasue the ijf does not want to even waste time investigating it. it's much easier to just omit it in judo,instead of finding a solution.

Oh and about the possiblities of slaming someone because you pick them up after applying a triangle.....why not just penalized the person who picks up and wants to slam,like they do in most bjj tournaments? instead of eliminating the multitudes of various different armbars and attacks that can be done from the guard?,one only has to penalize or disqualify the slammer ,(if he decides he wants to slam)not eliminate or penalize the actual technique. Everyone in bjj knows the rules and follows it to a T(judo could do the same),therefore no need to eliminate the possiblity of a well place triangle or armbar from the guard. It is obvious that the only reason they stand up is to get a break,why not learn how to stand to break posture instead? no one hardly ever tries to slam in bjj because everyone knows the rules and the possible disqualification. Sorry but judo has it backwards,It seems to me that judo just eliminates techniques when in doubt. I can understand kani bassami and the like or your own head spikes from uchi-matas,since they have been proven to cause real danger but some other techniques that have been eliminated over the years,I just don't get it. Judo has missed so many opportunities over the years to really caprture its audience and olympic fans.

If too much leg grabbing became a issue why not penalize the constant false attacker action,instead of eliminating a classical judo technique that has been around since the inception of the art? crazy
6/22/10 12:06 AM
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JoshuaResnick
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NF...
judo has it backwards, not bjj?? wow, lets examine that...

you try an armlock or triangle and i pick you up off the ground, or i lift you just a bit (it doesnt matter how high really) and i decide to slam your head into the hard concrete, wood, brick, or anything else nearby... yea, some good the armlock is going to do then.

in some regards, judo sees the application of newaza in a specific manner-- one that is much more realistic in this secenario. if you are supposedly good enough to get me in the triangle or armlock then you should be equally good enough to keep me from picking you up. if you cannot keep me down, then you should face the risks of it. since it is incredibly dangerous to slam somebody from that position, they call matte... not to necessarily save the guy who is standing, but to save the guy who is trying to apply the newaza.

personally, i'd be just fine if judo, and bjj, allowed the slams. i think it is an entirely valid technique and should be seen as a wonderful defensive strategy.

part of the skill in an armlock or triangle is to get, and keep the guy on the ground, if you cant do it, then screw it.

further, you know nothing about the IJF and the rules of Judo and why they are the way they are. BJJ is a sport that is so fragmented and so controlled by a Brazilian mob that any form of legitimacy cannot even be found. it is taking USA Wrestling and USA Judo to step into the fray in order to make bjj get something legitimate going on. I've been to more crappy run bjj venues that are just totally unsafe, full of outright egomaniacs, and have just horrible referee certification/education/consistency.

yet, yea.. go ahead and try to pick on the world's top combative sport so that you can try to feel good about something. the truth is that no matter how bad things get in judo during a short period of time, there is an established governing body that can, and will, make changes as they see fit. BJJ can only wish for that.
6/22/10 12:31 AM
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Newaza freak
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Edited: 06/22/10 1:07 AM
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JR,Now all of the sudden you want to apply real world self defense applications to a sportified judo grappling match? give me a break,Since when does judo care about it's translation of a judo match to a real fight? what are you now going to use reverse phsycology and use bjj's usual defense mechanisms to defend judo? I am really only interested in being able to see and apply technical grappling techniques in a grappling setting. If you don't think there is much technique in applying armbars while in the guard,(while someone picks you up),then you don't follow much bjj or high level grappling. If I was interested in real fighting ,then I would fight mma or get in a street fight.


Also, for all you think I don't know about the ijf or judo,I do know that they did not install that particualr rule because it was a real reality of the real fighting world. The ijf was definetely not relating it to "what would happen in a real fight" when they bannned it and they defnitiely were not thinking like some gracie in it's relationship to a real fight,when they came up with this rule. lol

so please give me another break,Your rambling also did nothing about giving me a good reason for eliminating choking with the end of the lapel. I could care less about defending judo or even bjj for that matter,as I just like to call it like I see. Hey man, there is alot of rules in bjj that I personaly dislike(never said it was all just great and dandy)doesn't mean that I have to get into a verbal insult match,everytime someone dissagrees with bjj rules.I just made a comment about a couple rules not about you personaly,so please chill out.
6/23/10 1:18 AM
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JoshuaResnick
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1. you made the comparisons to bjj in terms of why judo disallows things, i replied.

lets get a few things straight, judo's rules have been around long before those of bjj. never, not once, has judo ever allowed chokes with the bottom of the lapel. judo does not want people wrapping anything all the way around the neck that cannot be immediately and easily removed. imagine if somebody didn't tap, or for some god-forsaken reason had their neck snapped and you had to unwrap the entire lapel noose from the neck. enough said.

sure, the skill of applying an armlock or choke from the guard is obvious-- that's why they have always been a part of Judo. but, in the idea of SPORT, and not trying to kill or cripple people, if you do not keep your opponent on the ground then judo calls matte... afterall, this is a ying-yang question.. let's look at it really.

person 1: tori should have kept uke on the ground. if he is truly skilled in the guard submissions then tori shouldn't be able to lift him. if tori can lift him then it would be fair game for uke to slam him if the submission is continued. we don't want that, so, call matte as it is a dangerous stalemate.

person 2: uke should be formed to learn the esacpe "properly" and there is real skill in finishing the submissions even when lifted off the ground. thus, no matte should be called.

person 1: well, daike age is a valid technique. it is listed in the Kodokan. in fact is it the most effective counter-technique to the situation. if you are going to allow submissions in those positions then you should give uke every chance to protect, defend, and win the match the same as tori.

person 2: ?????? durh... scrathes head. yes, daike age is in the kodokan, but...

see, the argument doesn't work. if it is good for the goose then you must allow it for the gander. you don't want that. you want an unfair balance just like what bjj allows. but, bjj is 100% about the submission whereas Judo is about 75% about the throw and 25% about the newaza.

you can complain all you want about that, but it is the true. complaining about this aspect is akin to getting all mad that your pet snake bit you.
6/23/10 8:45 AM
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FreestyleJJ
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"person 1: well, daike age is a valid technique. it is listed in the Kodokan. in fact is it the most effective counter-technique to the situation. if you are going to allow submissions in those positions then you should give uke every chance to protect, defend, and win the match the same as tori."

I agree with this, but most of the matte's I see are where the guy applying the armbar's head is 1 inch off the ground. Do you really think daike age is effective 1 inch off the ground? I certainly don't. I would gladly let someone slam me that far off the ground.

Example situation that I'm imagining: The armbar is set, extended. Uki goes to try to yank out of it and lift. Tori underhooks uki's leg, so uki isn't getting anywhere with daike age. He still gets tori's head 1 inch off the ground, so matte. This is the example I think should be eliminated. Uki really needs to learn to defend properly instead of relying on this.

I don't feel like I would be in any danger. So in this case, I don't agree that the uki being armbared is learning the proper defense. He should be pushing in to keep his arm from being straighting and locking his hands up like a RNC until he can get his elbow free. Instead, he's learning to abuse a rule to get out.

I'm not really concerned about bjj in this context, other than it could be fixed too maybe. Also to cite the fact that people get picked up all the time high in bjj without getting slammed. So there's a track record of this idea being done safely if you call a daike age matte once the person is lifted high enough. I personally enjoy both sports, and appreciate them for what they are, and don't want either drastically changed(except maybe for those new rules). I do enjoy the conversation with you guys about viewpoints on the rules though.
6/23/10 9:58 AM
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Newaza freak
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JR,

Slamming (daike-age)is not the only option,counter or defense to a armbar from the guard.As a matter of fact it's probably the less technical move(although effective at times)there is. Have you ever heard of stacking someone and not having to stand up at all?,along with maybe a thousand other options on the ground to diffuse a armbar or triangle from the ground?? Have you ever heard or seen someone stand up in a bjj tournament and hold tori upright, all while shaking him off gently,while maintaining great balance and posture? It happens all the time safely in bjj and no matte needs to be called,why? because there is alot of times that a armbar can get effectively applied,even thou you are being picked up and you need a safe format or avenue in which to practice this or else you will never know how to apply armbars and triangle when you are being picked up. I think you should look into other options besides just daike-age as a defense.



Another interesting tidbit is that even in mma where slams are indeed allowed,these armbars or triangles sometimes work,why? because they were applied effectively enough that even a pickup does not save uke ass. I think that for every mattt hughes slam (like the one he did to carlos newton ),there always is a bunch of other great examples of fighters getting caught even after trying to pick up tori to slam his opponent inorder to defend.


So, if we come to the conclusion that it's a 50/50 scenario on wether armbars work (if someone is allowed to slam), how do fighters get so great at applying armbars and triangles,even thou they are being picked up? well most guys that are great at this specialty come from a safer sportive grappling background that allows you to practice and perfect armbars in a safer enviorement even thou you are being picked up. In other words, most of the guys that you see in mma that do land a armbar or triangle effectively (even thou his opponent is allowed to slam him),usually come from a bjj background which allows you to learn how to effectively apply this in a safer manner.

Here is a perfect example of how to defend properly without having to slam someone on their head,when slamming is not allowed.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WSE-q29-TFw


Also,under a no slam format the person applying the amr bar gets to also practice his armbar or triangle when he gets picked up,so that you learn and know how to apply it efectively when in fact you are getting picked up.Example of this in bjj and even in mma (were slam are allowed) are too many to even start posting.
6/23/10 10:06 AM
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Newaza freak
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Edited: 06/23/10 10:08 AM
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Also ,In bjj you end up learning how to dissengage properly and let go in a safer manner (when someone is picking you up)because the right set ups to armbar are not in place. Learning the feel of releasing safely (which is another correct defense to being slammed) is something that you will never learn if matte is always called, whenever uke stand up to defend.
6/23/10 11:55 PM
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JoshuaResnick
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first.. NF.. I would gladly bet donuts to dollars that in terms of newaza, and tachiwaza, that i more than have your skill and knowldge covered. dont pretend to lecture me about the proper ways to do x, y, or z unless you are talking calculus.

DA is just as proper and just as technical as anything else. sure, it can be done in a poor manner, just like anything else, but do not discount a technique based on how bjj percieves it. that is a weak argument and proves my point completely. you are not judging things on their own merit, but on your altered perception of the merit.

the reason why people in bjj "learn" to escape things the way they do is because of the rules, but because the system is better. if they allowed DA do you really think that people would be keeping hold of the triangles and armlocks? Durh! training is a direct result of the rules, if and when you alter those rules you also alter the training methods. BJJ disallows DA and does not even attempt to recognize it as a valid technique, so they allow the newaza to continue into tachiwaza.

Judo sees it differently. most rational people would say that Judo sees it in a more natural, real, safety-concerned way.

now, why the 1" thing... that's a better question, but one that I can, again, answer. 1" is all you need to really ef yourself up. that's why.

1" is enough to arch your entire body under uke in an attempt to complete the armlock, which in turn can result in spinal injuries.

1" is enough for me to slam you back down to the tatami and fall into you, potentially hurting you or us both.

1" is enough for me to throw you flat onto your back with force, speed, and control-- essentially an ippon. height of the throw does not matter in Judo, this is not freestyle wrestling. scores are judged on their own quality application.

1" is enough for me to show that i am able to lift you off of the tatami, essentially ending newaza.

So, the choice is simple for Judo... DO they allow DA and either risk injury or "those kinds of ippon" throws, or do they disallow it and then have to call matte for that and safety reasons...?

simple enough.
6/24/10 3:20 AM
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gbutts
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Newaza freak - Why did judo eliminate strangles with the lower end of the lapel? Bjj uses these strangles to loop the neck all the time, as it adds a lot more opportunities for choking,thus making ne-waza much more appealing and interesting for everyone involved. Oh and to this day, I have yet to see anyone in bjj seriously injured because of it,therefore it must be one of those techniques that was just eliminated becasue the ijf does not want to even waste time investigating it. it's much easier to just omit it in judo,instead of finding a solution.

Oh and about the possiblities of slaming someone because you pick them up after applying a triangle.....why not just penalized the person who picks up and wants to slam,like they do in most bjj tournaments? instead of eliminating the multitudes of various different armbars and attacks that can be done from the guard?,one only has to penalize or disqualify the slammer ,(if he decides he wants to slam)not eliminate or penalize the actual technique. Everyone in bjj knows the rules and follows it to a T(judo could do the same),therefore no need to eliminate the possiblity of a well place triangle or armbar from the guard. It is obvious that the only reason they stand up is to get a break,why not learn how to stand to break posture instead? no one hardly ever tries to slam in bjj because everyone knows the rules and the possible disqualification. Sorry but judo has it backwards,It seems to me that judo just eliminates techniques when in doubt. I can understand kani bassami and the like or your own head spikes from uchi-matas,since they have been proven to cause real danger but some other techniques that have been eliminated over the years,I just don't get it. Judo has missed so many opportunities over the years to really caprture its audience and olympic fans.

If too much leg grabbing became a issue why not penalize the constant false attacker action,instead of eliminating a classical judo technique that has been around since the inception of the art? crazy


good question about loop chokes, but why do i have stay on ground in bjj, why can't i slam the person if they jump guard, why can't i slam the person who just holds the guard, why i am penalized when i don't run into someone guard as they sit on their ass. and don't get wrong i love bjj, judo, and sambo but they all have siily rules. all grappling arts have rules that are conceived for that style of grappling. i wish we could back to days catch wrestling. btw i already but thread out why and how silly rules come about
6/24/10 8:10 AM
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FreestyleJJ
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JR, do you really think someone is going to get hurt off a 1 inch slam?

Over the years I've been slammed in that situation a bunch of times where I have a triangle or armbar, but I've underhooked the leg so they can't lift me very high, and all it does it make the hold tighter and they end up having to tap out. Usually against wrestlers or judoka who weren't told they couldn't do it ahead of time, since I'd rather them be convinced that what I'm doing is effective, and I'm not worried about that height. If they start to get me higher, I let go of the technique and try to avoid the slam.


And, would an ippon throw like that really be in the spirit of the ippon? You could techically classify it that way, but isn't the spirit of an ippon to be a fight ending throw, "death blow", essentially? So I agree it meets the technical requirements, but I can't really see that being in the spirit of the rule?
6/24/10 12:29 PM
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Newaza freak
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JR,

Do you really have to resort to telling me just how much more knowledge and skill you have than I do? Boy ,it sounds like your years in judo have really helped you understand the complete humbleness dept.Does every dissagreement here with you always have to end with your credentials being thrown around as sonme sort of verification for being right?. I have never questioned your skills or even your knowledge ,as a matter of fact, I have never even questioned you personaly ever at all,yet in the past, you have always questioned my skills or experience or lack there of . I would worry(not really),if it was only me but I see this is some sort of pet peeve with you and the way you express yourself with everyone, so I don't sweat it. Either way, let's get back on topic.


You like to express how much you do infact know about ne-waza,yet you make the comment that the only reason that bjj people have to resort to other methods outside of DA(slams) to get out of a tight armbar within the guard is because of it's rules. well my friend, either you don't know as much as you think you know or you have not been allowed (because of the rules that you practice under)to experience certain realities within this topic.

Assuming you are caught in a tight triangle or amrbar on the ground and if you know anything at all about this scenario,you then must know that even slamiing someone,sometimes,does not always alleviate or get you out of this situation,why? because sometimes it is on so fast,hard and quick that by the time you are pickiing him up, you are almost out ,as in lights out.So DA(slams) are not the only solution for all cases.As a matter of fact it could be the wrong solution at times depending on just how tight your caught inside the guard. Therefore, a slam is not always the best solution to the problem.The best solution could be to lean back or even gently stnad up while keeping great base and posture,why? because with a slight foward motion or momentum as done with a DA(slam)it would only end make things worse. I am not saying a slam won't work (ofcourse it can work)if allowed but many times the movement for slaming down only helps to tighten the armbar grip and or the trinalge choke around your neck.if your best defense is only to look for a stand up inorder to get matte called ,then how would you ever even learn how to defend the attempt when slamming might not be the best answer to the solution? Picking someone of the ground "slightly" almost never causes injury for "experienced" players and like I said bedfore slamming is not a 100% certainty foul proof defense. All you have to do is look at mma today to see this played out were slams are allowed,in fact just how many people go out in a mma match when trying to slam their way out of a triangle or armbar?. Again, I am not saying it won't work or that it's not a effective defense but I have seen many times when fighters in mma get caught whne they should have defintely opted instead to methodicaly and slowly worked their way out instead of going for the slam that sealed their own fate.

learning how to deal with this sensitivity(which is not allowed in judo)allows you to try to make the correct decision for the right application.

Judo forbids slams from within the guard anyway,so it's not like you allow it anyways. Why could you not just allow it to continue,maybe even among just black belt divisions,if safet is a concern? If slamming is not allowed ,how are people going to get hurt?why penalized someone that has completely positioned himself and locked in a tight triangle,just because he stands up.I think I just outlined how a slam is not a sure 100% defense ,although it can.

Grapplng sports are supposed to be technical sport(or so it should be in the eyes of some) and if someone locks in a tight armbar or a tight triangle, I need to figure out a more technical and efficeint way of getting out,instead of just looking for the referee to help me out or slamming my way out. It is not a mma match or a street fight,therefore a real world street application should not come into play,especially if it hampers the advancement of ne-waza finishes.

How much more exciting would it be for fans to see judo players submit their opponents from within the guard, if they make a tactical or mental mistake and get caught inside the guard? Once you get caught, you still have many otpions on how to get out, even thou you made a mistake.It's just that becuause of the judo rules,there is no need to learn them So,can we atleast agree that slamming is not your only solution to this problem.

I think I made a valid case as to the importance of why we must all learn how to apply other options, once you get caught inside the guard.
6/25/10 1:28 AM
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JoshuaResnick
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No. you didnt. and, if you want to know why i will mention experience levels, well, that's obvious too... experience means something. in fact, it means a lot. how can you argue a topic that you have little experience in?

i cant argue with people who have actually done true hisotircal studies of Kano's writings from the Kodokan. i cant argue with my cousin about radiation quantities released from an MRI machine as i am not a medical physicist. I also cannot argue about how to bake a wonderful cake as I am not a pastry chef.

so, the question about what your qualifications are does matter. in fact, it matters A LOT. any idiot can come onto the internet and sounds like s/he knows something when in fact they are spewing trash. while i don't think you are spewing trash, i dont think you are too far above that.

you are discounting the validity of a technique just becuase you prefer something else. yes, that's a smart argument. you are then dismissing the reason why the IJF takes the stance they do in regards to newaza stoppages and not even addressing their philosophies behind it, but instead just giving a buch of craptastic "that woundn't hurt anybody" arguments.

the truth is that the IJF sees newaza as newaza and tachiwaza as tachiwaza. they have valid reason to believe that allowing one person to be engaged in newaza while another is engaged in tachiwaza can lead to extremely dangerous situations. have you taken on that philosophy? No. Not even remotely.

Then they have adapted a strict line on the matter. the moment uke lifts tori off the tatami. it is a zero-tolerance policy, which in all walks of life tend to be very solid lines that people simply know they cannot argue with. having that be a grey area puts risky decisions in the hands of officials, zero tolerance does not. simple solution in an otherwise very difficult situation to judge.

So, in the end, you can think of me as an egomaniac all you like, it doesnt matter to me one bit. but, credentials do matter, and they matter a lot. honestly, i think yor opinion of the situation is very ignorant and limited to your own, highly personal, point of view. that means it is very subjective and not at all objective.

in other words, it is a waste of time-- like getting into an argument with one of the 7th grade girls in my pre-algebra class who thinks that i should raise her grade because every day she comes into my class and doesnt talk as much as she does in her other classes.

i am approaching this discussion from a point of view that is trying to understand why judo's rules are waht they are and taking into account the complete safety of all participants. i am also considering the rules of the sports and how those govern the way athletes train. yet another thing you have discounted, which is actually silly of you.

the truth is that if you put equal level judokas and bjj guys on the same mat together you will see a huge difference in physical development, intensity, and training. the rules of the sports are what created these differences. to think that the rules for each should be similar is just stupid. they see similar situations from nearly inversed points of view. to suggest that one is more right than the other is just something i cannot tolerate.

you should now go judge golf by the point of view of an NFL linebacker. you'd have just as much success and authority.
6/25/10 8:03 AM
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FreestyleJJ
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I personally would prefer to keep bjj out of the discussion. I agree, comparing the two is a waste of time and they shouldn't try to be like eachother. The only reason I have or would reference it is as an example of the safety of being allowed to lift someone up. I also agree on the physical developement and intensity with judo. I usually would think judo and wrestling have more in common than judo and bjj in regards to how they approach training and intensity, both being takedown oriented sports.

From your own statements on this thread JR, Judo is a sport that has been around a while and will continue to exist to see rules go in and out of existance. So why not look at it from that perspective? That's all I'm talking about is potential rules changes within judo without worrying about bjj. I see a deficency in the rule as it stands personally. Watching Camarillo or Canto vids where they show complete technical mastery over someone with their groundwork, but have to beat the guy 3 times before it's considered a win, because their opponent is hiding behind a rule. That doesn't seem right to me.

"Then they have adapted a strict line on the matter. the moment uke lifts tori off the tatami. it is a zero-tolerance policy, which in all walks of life tend to be very solid lines that people simply know they cannot argue with. having that be a grey area puts risky decisions in the hands of officials, zero tolerance does not. simple solution in an otherwise very difficult situation to judge."

Couldn't the line be drawn with simply "no slaming" with zero tolerance? With height, it is absolutely dangerous with to slam someone during a submission. Their neck is the first thing to hit every time. You could still be allowed to lift someone up violently to get out, but zero tolerance for slamming. Matte when you get them up though.

"the truth is that the IJF sees newaza as newaza and tachiwaza as tachiwaza. they have valid reason to believe that allowing one person to be engaged in newaza while another is engaged in tachiwaza can lead to extremely dangerous situations. have you taken on that philosophy? No. Not even remotely. "

Some of the best stuff in judo is the blending between the two. Throw, straight to pin, throw to armlock, etc. This also happens with flying juji-gatame. One guy is attempting newaza while the other is attempting tachi-waza. So I don't think those are absolutes really. Just kind of thinking aloud there rather than trying to make a point.
6/25/10 9:34 AM
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Newaza freak
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Edited: 06/25/10 9:45 AM
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Jr,

Well let's see now, I have been doing judo off and on since the early 70s and bjj for the last 12 years. How much more experience do you think I really need to have, just to be able to give you a silly opinion on this forum? A opinion none the less that has in fact come up multiple times in the past in various disscussion forums related to bjj and judo? Maybe, it's your inflated opinions of your own overexagerated qualifications that do not allow you to see the big picture here? by your own accounts you probably think that you are the only qualified person to speak on judo behalf,which is really funny as hell.

It works both ways,as I can look at your personal stand on this issue and simply think that your opinions of judo are very,very limited but I refrain myself from comming on the internet and spewing that sort of venom back at you. Everytime you get backed up to a wall you start questioning peoples experience,(instead of just staying on topic) you are so predictable it's pathetic.Instead, I am really just interested in talking or elaborating on the both arts that I enjoy and practice. Just because someobody does not agree with a particular rule or even some of the rules in judo does not nessecarily mean they hate judo or dislike judo. hell, like I said before, I dislike some of the rules in bjj,it does not mean I hate bjj.

It's seems like you are into this whole trip about how judo is so much superior than bjj,while I really could care less about all of that and see the good out of both arts and do in fact practice both. I believe that you tend to think that both arts should never be intertwined,while I, on the other hand think that it would be really cool if they could some how meet in the middle and make a vastly superior artform by combining the best of both worlds. I will not elaborate anymore with you on this topic,(one which I think could be a great and interesting disccusion),since you tend to want to take it to a personal level ,as always.
6/25/10 10:12 AM
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RGoodfellow
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I love this Resnick's ability to get people riled up!

In summary:

"I think that the new rules for kata gururuma are unnecessary."

JR: Fuck you! All sports have rules that change all the time and players must adapt to the rules. It's not a big deal.

. . .

"I think lifting a person up 1 inch during an armbar should not be grounds for stopping ne waza."

JR: Fuck you for suggesting a change in the rules! Rules should never be changed!
6/25/10 10:57 AM
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Newaza freak
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Allcloser,

You are holding on to dear life to my exact wordings or lack thereof in regards to this topic,when in fact one does not need to cling on to every little detail in a disscussion by holding people accountable for every little word.It really has no bearing on the actual subject matter,as I agree, I could of used better wording in getting my point across,so just for you... I will elaborate once again and hopefuly amke you understand my exact reason for my questioning this matter

Choking with the end of the lapel has always been allowed in bjj. I personaly have been submitted by it and have had the ability of being able to land it myself on many ocasions. I have also seen it displayed various times over the years in various bjj competitions over the years and have yet (honestly) never seen anyone seriously hurt or injured(maybe passed out)by this sort of choke attack. Contrary to your opinions ( which you did infact clearly said),it is not such a easy skill set to obtain,as the leveragel points for this choke must be just right and practicing and attaining this skill set is similar to any other choke involved with a gi. Alluding to the fact that it has no skills involved with it,shows me that you have never tried it on people that know how to defend it or even people that don't. The skill set is like anyother choke were one has to have everything set in place angle,position,leverage,bodyweight making contact in the right place.




I personaly (yes I said it) have never seen it allowed in judo from my own personal experience. I also doubt that it has ever been allowed in actual judo competitions but I also find it hard to believe that somebody at some point in time(thruout judo illustrious history) has not ever done it or tried it and I doubt that you can also vouch for the same thing. My only question was why, it is not allowed? when in fact it has been shown to be pretty safe in bjj competitons.

I could really care less if it was never allowed in judo or if they took it out at some point or whatever. why is it not allowed point blank. Even, if it has never been part of judo somebody somewhere must have tried it for somebody to eventualy say it should not be allowed. who made that decision? and why?


Now, is that such a insultive type of question that really deserves no clear cut answer? I don't think you have a legitimate answer or you would have given me one,yet you keep insisting on wanting me to give you my opinions on the tai-otoshi thread,which I clearly already answered for you?

6/26/10 12:13 PM
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Newaza freak
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Edited: 06/26/10 12:29 PM
Member Since: 5/12/08
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So, I guess It's safe to say that you defintiely don't know why it's not in judo Yet, you are very opinionated about not wanting it in judo at all, why? So inconclusion, A)you don't know why it's not in judo and B)you don't know or can't figure out why you personaly don't want that technique in judo either? I believe you talk a lot of mumbo jumbo but you dodge the direct question perfectly. Oh and by the way, my old time judo sensei thinks tournament judo today is all F%^&*Cked up and I agree with him,sensei is always right,remember?

You also claimed that it does not exist in judo,yet a couple of people have already told you that kashiwasazki sensei demonstrates it in some of his judo books,is kashiwasaki demonstrating non-judo techniques in his books now?
6/26/10 12:44 PM
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Newaza freak
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Edited: 06/26/10 1:09 PM
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENOsGag3x64

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWxnmuChrz0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48xsgyz1ioo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E84sMWGx4vM
6/26/10 6:52 PM
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JoshuaResnick
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FJJ...
"This also happens with flying juji-gatame. One guy is attempting newaza while the other is attempting tachi-waza."

No, you are wrong again. A flying armlock is not newaza. It is tachiwaza, just as a standing armlock is tachiwaza. There are two ways it works legally in Judo... 1. you finish the armlock in teachiwaza or 2. you use the motion as a skillful entry into newaza and then complete the armlock. To use the armlock, or a submission to force uke into newaza is illegal in Judo.

Throwing into a sub or a pin is NOT combining tachiwaza with newaza. It is one person successfully doing one and then the other. They do not happen at the same time.
6/26/10 6:56 PM
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JoshuaResnick
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RG... and by now you'd think that people know that I will do that, just for the hell of it. but they don't they keep getting offended and taking it serioulsy.
6/26/10 7:14 PM
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JoshuaResnick
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NF... I know a ton of guys who have been doing Judo since before I was born. Most of whom I knew better Judo than by the time I was 15 and would not allow them to instruct my own children for even 15 minutes. In other words, your saying you have done Judo since the 70's... Well, okay. That means what exactly? That you are older than me? Because it certainly does not speak to the experiences or quality of anything having to do with Judo.

You have alo been doing math much longer than I have-- are you qualified to teach HS Algebra, Geometry and Advanced Algebra? I have no idea... but, simply stating that you've been doing math longer than I have does not at all mean you are qualified to do anything in specific.

I think you get my point. And, anybody wit a lick of salt to them knows that qualifications matter a whole lot when it comes to such matters.

Congratulations on the 12 yaers of BJJ too.. I've played with it myself since retiring from competitive judo. It's fun. But it certainly doesn't mean one has any advanced understanding of newaza as a part of competitive Judo.

Now, you can make all the arguments against this and against that and get all up in arms about things you personally do and do not like... Congratulations on that. You have been successful. There is a golf clap in your honor somewhere.

But, with your vast experience you'd think that the wisdom to answer your own questions would've made even asking them a silly thing to do. So, seeing how your 35 years in Judo has been insufficient enough to actually answer these quetions for you, perhaps you should go back and READ THE ANSWERS that you were given. If you agree of disagree with them is your problem, not the IJF's, not the Kodokan's, not mine, not anybody else's... only your's.

Your questions and arguments have been answered time and time again, i don't care if you don't like the answers... Then you should've learned not to ask the questions. 35 years of Judo should've taught you that, and if not the years in Judo then just the years in life.

Beyond that, I don't care if you like the rules or not, tough cookies on that. There are rules that I don't like, but that doesn't matter one bit either. You don't see me acting like a whiney little baby over the rules. I am man enough to take a set of rules and figure out how to work within them...

Perhaps you need to reach that point?
6/26/10 7:18 PM
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Newaza freak
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Edited: 06/26/10 7:20 PM
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allcloser,

So let me get this straight,you "judo elitist",is going to finally concede that something does infact exist in bjj that does not exist in judo? C'mon man,you are losing ground here a little.Judo elitist everywhere are turning in their graves,only because this is such a pivotal non debatable mother of all no no's, when it comes to debating bjj/judo history. I vote for you to change your stance on this issue right now,if only for the sake of all your possible future arguments and possibly even all your past ones. lol
6/26/10 8:31 PM
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Newaza freak
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JR,

Since when do you have to be a highly competitive elite judo player inorder to ask a simple competition judo question? We are not talking about teaching algrebra or even geometry here,we are simply asking a simple competition judo question and no(definite no) you have not given me a qualified answer as of yet.I did not come stating that I wanted to teach anyone judo or that I even wanted to lecture anybody on judo,so please stop putting words in my mouth. The last time I checked,I don't think you need to be a math major in order to ask a simple math question. furthermore in every known recognized human sport,even measly fans(that don't train or even practice the sport) are allowed to ask simple rule questions about the sport in question. I honestly feel that you have not even given this question much valuable thought, as you simply felt right away that some bjj troll (who does not understand judo) is just questioning your beloved sport that you dearly love.




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