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Judo/Sambo UnderGround >> Judo ground rules difference from BJJ?


6/27/10 2:23 AM
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Newaza freak
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Edited: 06/27/10 2:27 AM
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wow,

Great stuff,spin it around,re-read the same old stuff, by pass the direct question again,confuse the hell out of anyone reading this stuff,spin it around some more and hope they don't realize I still can't answer the question.


After reading your last couple of post. I am totaly convinced that I am dealing with a nut case here.see ya!
6/27/10 7:40 AM
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FreestyleJJ
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JR

ok, I see your logic there on flying juji, etc.

6/27/10 2:03 PM
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JoshuaResnick
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FJJ... I hope it was helpful. Understanding how and why a sport sees a given act in a specific way is often very difficult, even for people who have been playing the sport for a generation or more.

unlike NF, you have been supplied an answer and are accepting of it. You might disagree with the answer, but you are accepting of it. Personally, I think the difference between the two ways a flying armlock can be finished is a huge grey area and that it is almost impossible for an official to determine if the armlock itself is what force uke to the tatami (which would be illegal).

but, that's the difference between the intent and meaning of the rules and the human ability to fully see them in live speed.
6/27/10 2:03 PM
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JoshuaResnick
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NF... you have been given answers. time and time and time again. you just dont like them! That's your issue, not mine. go back and read. save us all your rambling diatribe.
6/27/10 6:52 PM
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FreestyleJJ
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JR,

Yeah, I don't agree with it, but if that's the definition they're supposed to follow, no point in arguing it. I do like to look more at the original spirit of how it was intended to be in many cases myself. Kano intended it to be a throwing art, so that it should be.(Which is one of my personal dislikes of the new rules, since Kata-gurama is considered one of Kano's personal moves. How can you take it out of the sport?)

I can definately see the grey area where it's hard to tell how it happened with the flying juji. I had that call go against me and got hansomake. Despite his arm being completely bent the whole time. My opponent argued against the ref, lol, but the call was already made, so that was it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZc8phahor0
caught on a phone camera. Maybe it was a little of ahead dive into it, but I think the ref was more at fault, since he did tell me I had applied a wake-gatame.
6/28/10 5:20 PM
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JoshuaResnick
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referee education is vital.
8/9/10 2:02 AM
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Bently
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FreestyleJJ,

I watched the video of your jumping arm bar attempt. Unfortunately for you, the referee was inexperienced an did not recognize what your were trying to do. I did not see anything particularly dangerous in your attempt. It was not really a "flying" armbar, but a "jumping" entry.

Josh's point about referee education is right on point, as is his comment about ne waza vs tachi waza and armbars. I was a national level ref back when David Camarillo started shocking everyone with his flying and jumping armbars. There was a big arguemnt over what was or was not legal, but the higher level refs got it straightened out.

People often confuse "ne waza" and "katame waza". Ne waza is ground grappling, "ne" meaning "reclining, or on the ground". Ne waza is what you do on the ground,the movement and positioning, katame waza is the actual shime, kansetsu, or osaekomi waza. So you can have standing katame waza that is not ne waza, and you can do katame waza while in ne waza. But you can't do ne waza from a standing position.

Ben

8/9/10 2:04 AM
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Bently
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Regarding Mr. Kashiwazai and skirt/belt shime waza.

In his Masterclass series book "Shime waza", he explains that the skirt (Suso Jime) and belt (Obi Jime) techniques are not legal in competition, but demonstrates them anyway. In neither case is the belt or skirt wrapped entirely around uke's neck.

Ben
8/9/10 9:55 AM
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Koga
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"Do you really think daike age is effective 1 inch off the ground? I certainly don't."

Carlos Gracie and the IBJJF do not agree with you Freestyle JJ. In the bjj world championships and Pan Ams, competitors are disqualified if they pick up an opponent trying an armlock or triangle and slam them, even if it is only from 1 inch off the mat and could not have caused any actual harm.
8/9/10 6:58 PM
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judo man
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I got slammed like that once and my neck hurt for like a month.
8/10/10 1:22 AM
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JoshuaResnick
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the first time i ever broke somebody's arm was also the first time i ever fought senior level. i was 13 or 14. it was a tournament in indiana... hosted by charlie hooks--- he is a wonderful man who has done everything possible for Judo.

anyways, back to the carnage.

i was under 55kg then, competing at 60kg. some brick outhouse strong 30-something year old man who worked construction since birth. he was beating me like my own dad, only without the belt or extension cord.

in desperation i attacked yoko tomenage, was given a headbutt to the gut and, in turn, slapped on a juji-gatame from the guard (yes, it existed as far back as then... way back before the "gracies")...

the guy tried to defend and picked up me up off the tatami as i was trying to finish the armlock. before the matte came my head smacked off the tatami and i saw spots.

when i was able to see a moment later... i noticed i was still holding his wrist. i looked up, he was standing upright, looking like he was hit by a truck. completely white faced. my hands started to feel wet and sticky... it was a trickle of his bllod coming down his forearm.

i snapped his arm completely. bones through the skin where his elbow should've been.

the screaming started soon after. i didnt know what to do. i didnt want to let his wrist go, afraid that it would fall off his body. paramedics came rushing. the guy fell over when they got to us and i was still holding his wrist. a doctor came running out and peeled my hands from his wrist.

my dad was there that time. he came and escorted me off the mat and then tended to the other guy... he was an army medic, E-8. i just sat at the side of the mat watching somebody put on gloves and soak up the blood as it stained through his gi.

in other words... there is a very good reason why matte is called when it is.. and, yes, lifting somebody even 1" off the tatami can cause unreal damage.
8/14/10 10:45 AM
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leothelion
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Edited: 08/14/10 10:55 AM
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 @ JoshuaResnick...I always appreciate your sharing with the forum your "corporate" knowledge of Judo....I believe that knowledge is gradually being lost....It is very important to keep that knowledge alive....

As a self-described  "Martial Arts Geek"...I find the study of all types of Martial Arts deeply fascinating...In particular I find the "grappling arts"...fascinating and...frustrating :-) at the same time... There are so many little details that most be present to make every thing work together.... As primarily a Judoka, and always a Judoka I might add, I began studying BJJ because I felt that it could tighten up my Judo ground game...
I have made it one of my personal missions in life  to make visible in my grappling game my believe in the  synergy of Judo and BJJ...for that reason I still compete in both Judo and BJJ tournaments as a way to test my skills...My goal, not always realized, is to beat the crap out of the BJJ guys with Judo and vice a versa....:-)...In my opinion, it is a beautifull to behold when either a Judoka or BJJ player are able to introduce organically into their comp game  either BJJ or Judo.... In my opinion, Roger Gracie on the BJJ side and Flavio Canto on the Judo side are players that embody the synergy....

I have found that currently more Judoka are open to BJJ and vice a versa....that is a good thing for both sports...Judo and BJJ are son's of the same father....Kano Sensei...BJJ and Judo are at face value different but at closer inspection...so much the same...


     
8/19/10 7:14 PM
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Kai Tremeche
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JoshuaResnick - 
in other words... there is a very good reason why matte is called when it is.. and, yes, lifting somebody even 1" off the tatami can cause unreal damage.


I've tried to explain this to people repeatedly...

There's two outcomes for lifting and bombing someone out of an armlock:

1) You bash them good and get out
2) The turn out before you can lift and they break your arm whether they want to or not.
8/23/10 11:03 PM
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Empire
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don't do newaza (ground work) in judo.

learn how to sky a mother fucker, pardon my french.

seriously. im a brown in bjj and when i train w/ judoka, as randomly seldom as that may be, i always stand up. you know the groundwork a bit by now, time to help your overall 'game' out by developing throws, sweeps, takedowns from the stand up (tachiwaza - is this the right term?).
8/23/10 11:06 PM
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Empire
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if a judoka or whatever is ABLE to pick you up when you're applying armbar or triangle, you deserve to have it stopped.

if done correctly, nobody should be able to pick you up when triangling or armbarring. if they are, you should be smart/good enough to abandon it before that and switch to something else and re-attack.

if they can pick me up, MY bad.
8/24/10 7:32 AM
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Kai Tremeche
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8/27/10 9:13 AM
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FreestyleJJ
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"in other words... there is a very good reason why matte is called when it is.. and, yes, lifting somebody even 1" off the tatami can cause unreal damage. "

I agree with you there josh, that's some ridiculous damage for that situation. That story however, makes me think of the situation in reverse from maybe what you intended however. From my perspective, that situation was caused by the way most judoka are taught or instictually try to lift their opponent off the ground violently as an escape, which can back fire devestately as illustrated in your story. That could have been avoided if instead, that judoka had instictually pressured in and tried to get his arm bent as his first reaction.

I broke a guys arm in that situation once as well in a judo match. No where as horribily as you described, but it was however against a blind competitor who I was trying to take it easy on. I didn't find it very funny at the time. It happened within the rules, since he never got my shoulders off the ground and I was barely if at all applying any pressure. His own reaction of jerking up violently got his elbow popped and then I cursed my way off the mat under my breath for being the asshole that just broke a blind man's arm.

I think both those situations wouldn't have happened if judoka didn't see the pickup as the first instictual defense. It's "a defense", but it's not "the best defense" and it's flawed in that failure can result in your arm being snapped in a much more spectacular way, and that it's less efficient in that it takes a lot more energy and explosiveness to get it done.
8/27/10 11:59 AM
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JoshuaResnick
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perhaps you are right... but all the same, once the muscle is defeated it takes only 12 lbs of pressure to break the average elbow joint....

this still means that even with good technique, there are risks... and i honestly cannot say if the guys elbow was stright or bent when he lifted me.. it was a long time ago and i was hanging on for dear life as it was...
8/28/10 11:54 AM
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Chocolate Shatner
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best defense. Kancho waza!
9/19/10 8:53 PM
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BJJWRESTLER
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JR,I tend to like your posts,you have a lot of knowledge about Judo,but I have to dis agree here.What I have seen,and I am sure you have too,is using that rule about picking up when caught in an armbar,you have Judoka that want no part of newaza,so they use,or misuse that rule.In my opinion,that develops bad habits,and quite frankly,a lazy way out,rather then learn and use technical escapes.
9/19/10 8:56 PM
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BJJWRESTLER
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I was at a BJJ tournament years ago(and want to say up front this is not a BJJ vs Judo argument),saw quite a few Judoka get caught in armbars and triangles,the instinct was to do that pickup move,but of course,different rules,so would get tapped
11/25/10 10:54 PM
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Jacket Wrestler
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FreestyleJJ - "Having said that, the judo rule seems the most fair. 'I can't slam you, then let the sub go.' Or, 'hold the sub and let me slam.' "

That's the one thing I'm kind of nit picking at. That is fair, unless the guys head is only 1 inch off the ground and that's all the higher you can get him. Tori doing the armbar is in no danger in this situation, so I think it's very unrealistic to stop under those circumstances.



I could spike you pretty hard from 1 inch. Would you be willing to risk paralysis for life to get an armbar? I would heal from a broken arm. Maybe the guy doing the armbar should just tap out?
11/27/10 11:26 AM
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leothelion
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 Having competed in both Judo and BJJ...I can say that Judo tends to be much more aggressive....It is get the throw or submission ...no messing around...whereas in BJJ...it seems more methodical....It is all good...I believe both sports compliment each other very well....I am seeing moe "BJJ" type submissions in Judo competition....from what I have seen I don't see much "Judo" in Brazilian Jiu-jitsu competitions ...particularly in the United States....I believe many Americans are still under the sway of the whole "Gracie In Action" tapes that showed the Gracie's destroying Judoka...The Americans I have fought in Bjj comps insist on "stiff arming" or dropping down to a single leg or double leg ( with me when they do that I generally reach over there back, grab their belt and introduce them to the friendly skys of O Gosh or Harai Gosh :-) )...the Gracies themselves when you talk to them, in my case I spoke with Royler, have tremendous respect for Judo and in fact recommend Judo... To that end I actively train Judo at Universal Judo Center with Coach Jim Hrbek and BJJ at Marra Senki Jiu-Jitsu with Sergio "Marra" Correa ( Marra is a bb in Judo as well)...both in San Antonio, Texas...

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