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Cigars, Beer & Poker Ground >> Brag: Royal Flush


5/24/10 7:20 PM
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Ze Dano
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Playing 1/2 last night at a local casino. The table was opened up about 20 mins, so everyong is fairly even ($200.00 max buy-in, which I think everyone did)

I'm dealt KdQd in middle position. EP raises to $5.00 (lol), gets 6 callers.

Flop comes Ad 6s 10d. EP bumps it up to $15.00, one call, one fold, I flat call, one more caller.

Turn comes Jd. Checked to me, I check as well hoping LP will bet it out. No such luck.

River brings 6d, making it four diamonds on the board.

EP makes it $25.00 to go, gets one caller. I raise it to $50.00. Both players call.

I roll over my Royal Flush. A couple of groans, a couple of right on's. Not only do I scoop a decent pot, but the casino also pays out $150.00 for the RF.

I bought the table a round of drinks, and tipped the dealer $15.00.

Funny thing is, I was chatting with a gal next to me about never seeing a RF not 2 hands before this..I was contemplating going for a quick break but decided to see one more hand lol

Sorry for the frat, tl:dr, blah blah blah...I'm just excited.
5/24/10 8:30 PM
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bismanfightclub
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Never had a royal flush, I have had a few straight flushes. The first one I ever got I had KJ of spades and flopped the open ended straight flush draw, caught the 9 on the turn and had the guy with the Ace high flush put me all in. I also lost with a straight flush when I was able to limp in from the sb with a 4-5 of clubs and flopped a straight made a flush on the turn, and the straight flush on the river, only to find out the other guy had the 9-T of clubs for a higher straight flush. I said something like fuckity fuck fuck!
5/25/10 1:01 AM
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VectorWega
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 Saw the thread and was looking for a reason to criticize.  On the river you raised $25 into a pot of ~$130.  I guess they have to call you then, but it seems like you could bet more for value.  Even shoving seems like it would have more value than betting $25 (plus could seem like a bluff..just my opinion).  Full house was possible.  Unfortunately, all the high flush cards were taken :-/
5/25/10 2:19 AM
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Ze Dano
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good analysis Vector

now that I see it, I should have made a higher value bet...obv no one can beat me on this hand...must have been too excitied to roll the cards over
5/25/10 4:07 AM
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PR
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Crazy stuff Dano
5/26/10 1:19 AM
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andre
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I really dont think he would have gotten paid on any bet over the min raise he made at the end. There were 4 diamonds out there and no one could have a diamond higher than a 10. 9 of diamonds might call a bit more, but who would call anything more than the smallest of value bets when they're holding anything but a Q minimum on that board (which they cant be holding, obviously). Also, anyone with a full house will reraise his min raise so I think he made the right play.

Thoughts, PR?
5/26/10 10:35 AM
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PR
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Edited: 05/26/10 10:37 AM
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Well let's think about the EV of different situations. Here's an easier example than the hand in question. Say you have the nuts, and are on the river with one opponent. He checks.

Now say we can only bet either $50 or $100. What is the ratio that he needs to call each bet to make them even in Expected Value? I hope it's obvious that he needs to call the smaller bet of $50 twice as much to be equal in EV.

If he calls the $50 bet 50% of the time (folds the other 50%) our EV is ($50 times 0.50 = $25) $25.

We expect to make $25 in profit when we bet $50. Half the time he calls the $50 and we win $50 and half the time we fold and we make $0.

So if he calls the $100 bet at least 25% of the time then it is better to bet $100 since the EV of betting $100 is at least ($100 times 0.25 = $25) $25 as well.

Now this situation is a little bit trickier because we have two opponents - but you evaluate it the same way. Let's start the analysis by starting with the baseline of what actually happened... one guy bet $25 one called the $25, and Hero raised to $50 and they both called.

So what was Hero's EV of raising to $50?

2) we need to realize that what matters is EV, not maximising how many opponents will call. EV is more important than maximising the % of time the opponent will call. We don't necessarily bet the amount that an opponent ill call $100 of the time. Remember, it's all about making the most money in EV.

Andre, you certainly have enough knowledge to understand this and maybe continue on with the analysis along these lines.
5/27/10 1:26 AM
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Ze Dano
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keep going PR...Im fairly new to the game and dont mind learning
5/27/10 2:57 AM
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andre
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PR, great insight. Thank you. I guess I'm still making the mistake of not thinking beyond the hand I'm playing. What I mean is that, perhaps because Im playing above my bankroll, I try to maximize what I can make on that very hand and with a board that includes two cards to a higher flush than anyone could have, plus the possibility of a boat, I just cant see anyone calling anything more than a min raise unless they hit the boat and then they're reraising, possibly shoving anyway...

I guess what I mean is that if I'm holding an ace-high flush and I suspect there are other flushes out there I'm going to size my bet accordingly, but I can't imagine how such a dangerous board gets paid off by anyone but a complete donkey.

I'm not disagreeing with you, by the way, just trying to explain my line of thought. Your post is extremely helpful to me.
5/27/10 4:57 AM
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PR
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You line of thought certainly has merit. Note my post didnt necessarily disagree with you. I'm just stressing that you need to consider all the options before choosing a raise size.

A big concept a lot of people dont ever seem to grasp
is that a winning poker player's profits mostly come from bad players. Which should be self-evident I hope. Bad players by definition play bad. So it follows that we should play in a way to let those bad players make big mistakes. Because who is going to make a "big mistake" Its certainly not going to be good players.

My personal style follows a philosophy of giving bad players as many opportunity to make big mistakes as possible.

So in a hand like this - Andre pay attention - even though "I just cant see anyone calling anything more than a min raise unless they hit the boat and then they're reraising, possibly shoving anyway..." that's irrelevant to me.

I would often make a huge raise and open the doors to these two opponents to make a huge mistake by calling me.

Remember by min-raising you are LIMITING them to making a $25 mistake.

I have a personal concept I call "Random Donk Factor" which is a variable that tries to encapsulate the idea that we never know for sure what the other player is thinking. It can also apply to good players too. Maybe I will write about it sometime, because I haven't come across any poker literature that talks about anything similar.

Anyway, it's not our responsibility to decide how our opponents should play. We may know that they shouldnt call our raise with any hand they could possibly have... but we don't want to stop them from making mistakes.

Who knows, they might decide that our huge raise is a bluff or something. Or one guy might be tilting. Or the other guy might be mad at us. Or his wife. There's a million reasons that our opponents could use to justify a call if we make a huge raise.
5/27/10 1:08 PM
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andre
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That is a beautiful post, PR. Thank you so much for taking the time to write it.

I need to start reading your site. The only reason I havent is because I do 99% of my web surfing while Im at work and your site is blocked.

Can you please provide the link again?

Thanks again!
5/27/10 5:25 PM
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bismanfightclub
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Well I don't think he played it awful, in hindsight, it is often easy to realize ways to play things better, but often times you may put a player on a hand and play it hoping to get as much as possible from them.  I was playing at one of the free leagues one week (tournament style) and there were at least 6 guys to the flop and three big spades come out, first to bet goes all in, every one folds and he flips over his royal flush and everyone was like WTF?  why did you push all in?  He said he didn't want anyone sucking out on him!  You just gotta shake your head sometimes.
6/3/10 11:05 AM
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NYHC
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grats man, ive hit 2 royals but both were online. one was in a 1/2 6max ring game. the other in a $10 tourney just last week.

the casino i play at pays $300 for a royal. the table and dealer must have been happy with drinks and a nice tip. im cheap i might have given the dealer $15 dollar tip for that but fuck the other players drinks are free where i play.
6/10/10 3:29 AM
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vengence
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ttt for PR's site
6/10/10 10:13 AM
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Yoojamajeen
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Ze Dano
I'm dealt KdQd in middle position. EP raises to $5.00 (lol), gets 6 callers.

Flop comes Ad 6s 10d. EP bumps it up to $15.00, one call, one fold, I flat call, one more caller.

Turn comes Jd. Checked to me, I check as well hoping LP will bet it out. No such luck.

River brings 6d, making it four diamonds on the board.

EP makes it $25.00 to go, gets one caller. I raise it to $50.00. Both players call.

I roll over my Royal Flush.


Gross. Just horrible.

Preflop is fine, but you've flopped a Royal flush draw on an unpaired board against six players and you flat-call a $15 EP C-bet into a $38 pot? Seriously? I just threw up a little in my mouth.

Your hand on the flop figures to make a nut hand by the river about 45 percent of the time, so how about building a pot? At most live tables, you could easily raise it to ~$35 and get called by any Ace, 10, 6, FD or even the odd moronic gutshot. You've got no reason to fear a re-raise, because even if it happens, with effective stacks of only 100BBs your pot-equity is high enough to justify calling a shove anyway.

Barring the unlikely flop all-in situation (only sets and 2-pairs are likely to re-raise you on the flop), you are now going to the turn with a sweet draw, 3 opponents that figure to have a 1-pair hand or a draw weaker than yours, and a big fat $178 pot, as opposed to the $98 pot as played.

At this point you will be in control of the betting with position on two out of three opponents, so if you miss the turn you have an excellent chance of being able to check for a free river card. However, when you hit the turn (as you did) the remainder of your stack is less than a pot sized bet, and so you can easily shove it in there and expect to get called by any flush, straight, 2-pair, and even the odd big Ace.

The point is this - big flops don't come along too often, especially live, so when they do you should be thinking about which line is going to give you the best chance of getting the most money in the middle.

I concede that this is just my opinion, but I have played midstakes poker online and live profitably for over 10 years so I do profess to know a little something. I don't know who PR is, so i'm sorry if he's the local poker god and i'm blaspheming, but I can't believe that any good player isn't disturbed by the weak line OP has taken in this hand. While I agree that the river raise is OK given how OP got there, that doesnt change the fact that the pooch got screwed well before then.

Opinions PR?






6/10/10 6:39 PM
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PR
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Yeah, nothing wrong with raising the flop. However I'd choose a higher raise amount to increase fold equity. The reason being that when you play a draw aggressively, you want to either make everyone fold, or get it all-in on the flop.

So plan is A) make everyone fold, and hitting your draw becomes the backup plan.

You dont want to make a small pot-builder raise because it induces people to call, and lessens the chance the turn will check through if you miss.

The only major way you can fuck up a hand like this is to make a smaller raise on the flop, then whiff the turn. Then you in a bad spot.
6/23/10 5:08 AM
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PR
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my site is 604poker.com

note I dont write any articles for it anymore. I just dont have the time or incentive. However the forums are current and theres lot of pro players that post there.
6/24/10 12:15 AM
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VectorWega
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 I don't get the decision to tip the dealer $15.  That doesn't make any logical sense.
6/24/10 11:42 AM
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andre
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Ive tipped the dealer $5 when Ive won a big pot, though I realize there is really no reason to tip anything more than $1 anytime you win. You certainly dont receive a tip when your aces get cracked.

I do it because I play at the same casino every day and they all know me and I golf with some of the dealers.

But it really is a mistake to tip more than a $1 in most cases, I think. Profit margin is slim enough without reducing it further by overtipping everyone.
6/24/10 6:49 PM
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billid
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"If he calls the $50 bet 50% of the time (folds the other 50%) our EV is ($50 times 0.50 = $25) $25.

We expect to make $25 in profit when we bet $50. Half the time he calls the $50 and we win $50 and half the time we fold and we make $0.

So if he calls the $100 bet at least 25% of the time then it is better to bet $100 since the EV of betting $100 is at least ($100 times 0.25 = $25) $25 as well."

In this example it sounds like neither $50 or $100 is better than the other.


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