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Judo/Sambo UnderGround >> I quit judo and its silly ass rules

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6/23/10 1:01 AM
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JoshuaResnick
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i tend to agree with judom... all sports have rules. to say the rules of judo are more, or less, silly than those in any other combative sport is pretty insane.

every sport sees things differently, every sport has rules that make zero sense when compared to something else. but that's just it, you are comparing it to something else.

things should only be judged on their own merit. i personally don't see a huge change in terms of who is winning in major tournaments due to the rules. i hear a lot of people complaining about the rules, but not too much of a change actually within judo itself.
6/23/10 11:09 AM
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Newaza freak
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Edited: 06/23/10 11:11 AM
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Another interesting point is that the people that are adapting and winning are doing so,because they have been allowed to train and use kata-guruma properly for competition for many long years,so adaptation for someone like this comes quite easy.But how about the new generation that has to learn and a use it from the very beginning with all of these adaptations? is it going to be easier for them to learn kata gururuma with adaptations? or is it going to be simply better to just abandon it altogether?

This is were the real trajesty lies, the newer generearation will probably never want to invest so much time in learning kataguruma whith adapatations,therefore they will likely end up abandoning it altogether. It's not just about just winning and adapting at all cost but preserving what judo is or was.
6/23/10 1:58 PM
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Shaper108
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nowaydo -  http://freestylejudo.com/2010/03/15/freestyle-competition-rules/
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this.
6/23/10 11:20 PM
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JoshuaResnick
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I do not think many people are really happy about the IJF's new rules, but they will accept them and move on. perhaps changes will come post 2012, perhaps not.

Either way, Judo is Judo and will will continue being kong o the hill in my book.
6/25/10 12:07 AM
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OCJudoTrngCtr
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Edited: 06/25/10 12:09 AM
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 I took a look at the rule books for the two other Olympic combat sports; wrestling and boxing.

The boxing rule book is 288 pages.

assets.usoc.org/assets/documents/attached_file/filename/8349/2008_Rulebook_FINAL.pdf

The wrestling rule book and guide is 163 pages. It includes rules for Freestyle, Greco, Beach and Women's wrestling.

www.themat.com/forms/Rulebook.pdf

The judo rule book is 29 pages (doc file, not pdf)

intjudo.eu/index.php

So, in terms of magnitude and scope of the rules and regulations, the sport of judo is streamlined more than boxing or wrestling.

While I did not examine the rules thoroughly, I did scan for how infractions of the rules were handled during the contesting of a match.

Wrestling does have a penalty system that is somewhat similar to judo. Three infractions can lead to disqualification. A very serious infraction can lead to disqualification

in the sport of Boxing, the referee has much more latitude. The referee can caution, warn or disqualify a boxer at his discretion. There are several different fouls that the rule book lists.

What neither of the other rule sets had, was a direct disqualification for an action by a competitor that did not endanger his opponent, or go contrary to the spirit of the sport discipline (bad sportsmanship primarily).

Also, since it was a number point system; accumulated penalties did not weigh as heavily as in judo.

It has been asserted on this thread that the rule changes haven't really affected the results. I have watched most of the semifinals and finals of the World Cup events that were webcast. That is simply not true from my observation. The rule changes determined a good (or bad?) percentage of the matches. Overall, the entire penalty system was beyond a doubt, a significant determining factor in the results.

I don't have figures for boxing or wrestling to determine how many of their outcomes are determined by the penalty system. But my best guess, based on how penalties are determined and assessed in accordance with their rule books, that the number is far less than in judo.




 
6/25/10 10:48 AM
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Chocolate Shatner
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OCJudoTrngCtr - 

The wrestling rule book and guide is 163 pages. It includes rules for Freestyle, Greco, Beach and Women's wrestling.


 



Now, if only there was freestyle women's beach wrestling. Now THERE's a spectator sport!
6/25/10 11:42 PM
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judom
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I don't know why people are concerned with judo's rules all the time and the IJF when they compete like 2 times a year in some local tournaments.

What is this big concern about judo rules ? Judo is as popular as ever in Europe and its getting more and more popular and even if you remove all lower body attacks it will be as popular. As I told you few days ago, in one of the Euro top junior tournaments, there are SIXTY (60+!) entries in the 73kg division. This is huge.

Stop worrying so much about specific techniques or about the future of Judo as if it depends on you ! Many of you who are worried about lower body attacks are not even experts in that, I am sure of it, yet you are giving opinions on this. Top experts in these attacks have not had any problem and are not worried. So stop being so worried !

And stop worrying about how judo will be trained now or in the future. It will be trained in the same way as it always has been, at least from the time I have trained it, nothing has changed.

Many of you don't know about building up athletes: Eliminating lower body attacks is good for many more athletes than it is bad for. Because there are many guys who are young and super strong who know only to grab a leg and stall or get a koka. Then, they get murdered in the seniors as their technique is screwed. Now, they will be forced to develop their judo much better before getting stuck into elementary and wrong motions that later kill them when they get to seniors.





6/25/10 11:43 PM
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judom
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WOW and stop with this nonsense that judo is a martial art and now its a sport and its useless as a martial art: you go and throw an olympic judoka all around and I promise you your judo will be very effective in real life.

You want to be some kind of a ninja or something ?
6/26/10 3:16 PM
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judom
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glenn,

Whether I know judo or not is actually irrelevant. I am telling you my experience in training judo. I actually just 1 week ago talked to a friend of mine who is a national judo coach and he told me: the rules don't matter, we train almost the same way (he was the one that gave me the Igor Maharau example, and then I looked it up and suggested it to you).

As far as BJJ goes, it is grossly over-rated. From what I've seen, the techniques are OK but the sport is populated by ninjas. This is also what a high ranking BJJ instructor told me: The sport is good, but it attracts the wrong people, who as I explained have very confused expectations when they go against real judo athletes.



6/26/10 8:53 PM
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Chocolate Shatner
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judom -  I actually just 1 week ago talked to a friend of mine who is a national judo coach and he told me: the rules don't matter, we train almost the same way (he was the one that gave me the Igor Maharau example, and then I looked it up and suggested it to you).





I would say from this that either your friend is lying to you about his level of coaching, or you're lying, or someone is totally ignorant.

Here's just a few examples I've seen from local players here in Japan with the new rules. Note, I train at a prison with prison guards, four of whom happen to be some of the highest ranking judo players in my city, and are among the head referees in the area. Other members include recent graduates of Nippon Sports Science University, etc.

Because of the rule for no same-side gripping, no one even attempts cross grips, except me. I am also routinely warned that such techniques would be illegal in shiai (even to the point of stopping a randori round for this instruction).

Because of the rules on leg grabs, players taking an absurdly high collar grip, knowing that if I slip under, they can face dive, and I can't stop it without incurring a penalty.

A sandan who cannot do anything but the most basic groundwork, and relies on the fact that he's 130 kilograms to survive in newaza (he turtles up, knowing that no one can get him turned in time to prevent matte). Even giving him 20 kilos (I'm 105-110), and starting in half guard, he cannot pass my guard or submit me. And I'm a shodan still.

Players who, due to passivity rules, start bouncing and jerking on your collar as soon as they get a grip, so as to look like they're attempting something. All they've done is shred the collar on my practice gi. Never mind not being able to do an actual technique.

And that's mostly comments on the tachiwaza area. Never mind the newaza area, where, sad to say, I am one of the top three newaza players in my city. A guy who's only done judo for about 7 years, and a year of MMA with Greg Jackson back in 2003, and I'm one of the best newaza submission guys in the city? Are you fucking kidding me? Fact is, I've "tapped out" almost every single player in the city I've faced at some time or another over the past 3 years, usually by juji gatame, but also various chokes. In the same time period, I've been submitted once, by one of the aforementioned high level ref guys, who at 45 is still a beast on the mat.

Your friend is delusional if he thinks the rules don't affect how players train in the long run.
6/27/10 2:07 AM
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judom
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glenn and CS,

The rules don't affect the majority of TRAINING. Period. I don't know what you want to believe but this is a fact. And the people who I have talked to and trained with, I am pretty sure know much more about judo than you and that indeed includes national team coaches. I don't really care whether you believe me or not, but I know what I am talking about it. I am telling you based on my information from several national teams, not at some local community colleges.

Much more emphasis is made on randori and technical randori, meaning: giving temporary openings and exploiting them with explosion, counters, attacks from when you are down, there are 1001 different kinds of randori and that is where the emphasis is. Even gripping is taught to junior national team members via randori with top senior players. In training, the main emphasis is on good judo, not on exploiting the rules.

I honestly cannot tell you these days what they do in competition time, I am sure there are scouting reports, different strategies and so on, I can ask if you want and give you a very detailed report on that. :) From my brief discussion on that, the main emphasis was on mental preparation as players can't perform well in competition due to nerves.

As far as BJJ glenn, I have rolled with BJJ black belts. I don't have per-se anything against ne-waza (where BJJ concentrates), quite the opposite. My point is that most BJJ guys are not real athletes and most definitely not in the caliber of top judo athletes. So when they roll, they can get pinned in positions which they did not expect that they cannot get out of. I even posted you some matches in another thread, do take a look what happens.








6/27/10 2:07 AM
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judom
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glenn and CS,

The rules don't affect the majority of TRAINING. Period. I don't know what you want to believe but this is a fact. And the people who I have talked to and trained with, I am pretty sure know much more about judo than you and that indeed includes national team coaches. I don't really care whether you believe me or not, but I know what I am talking about it. I am telling you based on my information from several national teams, not at some local community colleges.

Much more emphasis is made on randori and technical randori, meaning: giving temporary openings and exploiting them with explosion, counters, attacks from when you are down, there are 1001 different kinds of randori and that is where the emphasis is. Even gripping is taught to junior national team members via randori with top senior players. In training, the main emphasis is on good judo, not on exploiting the rules.

I honestly cannot tell you these days what they do in competition time, I am sure there are scouting reports, different strategies and so on, I can ask if you want and give you a very detailed report on that. :) From my brief discussion on that, the main emphasis was on mental preparation as players can't perform well in competition due to nerves.

As far as BJJ glenn, I have rolled with BJJ black belts. I don't have per-se anything against ne-waza (where BJJ concentrates), quite the opposite. My point is that most BJJ guys are not real athletes and most definitely not in the caliber of top judo athletes. So when they roll, they can get pinned in positions which they did not expect that they cannot get out of. I even posted you some matches in another thread, do take a look what happens.








6/27/10 3:36 AM
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barroids
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Glenn Hynes dude you should chill out with the IQ insults and shit. Judom has been giving us the straight dope on national level camps in Europe for years. It's information. (Something that used to be plentiful on the UG before legit dudes got chased off by bullshit.)
6/27/10 7:38 AM
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Chocolate Shatner
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judom - glenn and CS,

The rules don't affect the majority of TRAINING. Period.


I am telling you based on my information from several national teams, not at some local community colleges.

Even gripping is taught to junior national team members via randori with top senior players. In training, the main emphasis is on good judo, not on exploiting the rules.


As far as BJJ glenn, I have rolled with BJJ black belts. I don't have per-se anything against ne-waza (where BJJ concentrates), quite the opposite. My point is that most BJJ guys are not real athletes and most definitely not in the caliber of top judo athletes. So when they roll, they can get pinned in positions which they did not expect that they cannot get out of.



Note: I only left in the parts I am commenting on here

1. Players TRAIN in a manner that is aimed towards the way they will FIGHT. Period. If something is not allowed in a competition, or a player no longer has to worry about it, then that will affect how they train. To say that it won't affect a player at all is folly at best. Or, tell me, do your national team members still train in the same techniques that allowed Robert Van De Walle to win his Olympic medal?

Coaches who say it hasn't affected their players training at all are the coaches who most likely were in favor of these rule changes, and never taught said techniques to their players to begin with. It's easy to say you aren't changing your practices when that's the case.

2. Nippon Sports Science University is not "some community college." That insult aside, your insistence that this is what is happening at national levels doesn't really matter. Judo is built on a trickle up/trickle down effect. Without your "community college", you're not going to have your grass roots players who *gasp* eventually become national team members!

Kinda happened in my town as well. Look up the name Emi Yamagishi. Small girl, fights at the under 48 kilo level. Beat Ryoko Tani in the 2008 All Japans. Tani still went to the Olympics however. She's from the neighboring city to me, I know her original instructor. Nice man, kinda fat now.

3. So, players are taught through randori? Good. Then they are taught according to the rules in place. Which brings us back to the point. Or do you think that these senior national team members are wasting their time teaching the young junior members things like same side grips, leg grips, long belt grips, etc?

4. Your comment on BJJ is again showing a lack of knowledge outside of your rarefied world of "multiple national teams", I will assume are European from others comments. I've met many players of both judo and BJJ. Rolled with many players of both arts. They're equal, all things being said. You keep trying to use the example of Olympic caliber athletes, but then use examples from BJJ of your average local competitor. This is similar to the BJJ nut-huggers who use BJ Penn as an example, and compare him to your YMCA judo player. Both are fallacious to the extreme.

If you're gonna compare the level of athletes in both BJJ and judo, and even attempt in some countries like America to differentiate them, you'd have to compare Mundial players versus World Championship players. Even then, you'd be having to make judgment calls based off of rule differences, and how those effect tactics. It would be interesting in the highest to see a match between, say, Flavio Canto and BJ Penn, or Roger Gracie and Keiji Suzuki, under a "mixed grappling" rule set.

Example of the previous paragraph. In 2002, I did my first MMA bout, while training with the New Mexico State University Judo team. Going into the bout, I was told that the rules would be "UFC Rules," which of course included no kneeing a downed opponent in the head.

Bout starts, and I executed what is, perhaps, the best hane goshi I have ever done. Worked some punches from half guard, but got sloppy, and was bucked off as I passed into full guard. My opponent scrambled, and soon had me in a turtle position, his body in a "North South" type position to mine. No danger of submission from here, and his arms were around my ribs/chest, so he couldn't do much, I thought. My tactic was to wait for him to release his arms when he went to either punch me or change position.

Of course, we can guess what happened. The promoter (a chump change guy, not that uncommon in MMA in 2002) went by rules akin to the original 1993 UFC. So, there was no foul at all when my opponent slammed his knee into the top of my head. The first one, being totally unexpected and undefended for, had the interesting effect of removing all control from my arms and legs, while leaving me totally conscious and understanding just what the hell was happening. The second was like a painful firework going off in front of my eyes. The third was more of the same. Thankfully, the ref stepped in at that point and prevented me from getting even more brain damage.

So, tell me, was my opponent the better athlete because he caught me in an unexpected position? One I couldn't get out of? Or was it because of a rule misunderstanding, and an unfamiliarity with the tactics of the rule set I was competing under?


6/27/10 9:24 AM
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Chocolate Shatner
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edit: pass into full mount, not full guard.
6/27/10 12:58 PM
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judom
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glenn,

you are bringing as example one-person's experience. I am bringing as example several national teams. You see a difference ?

The majority of a training session as I explained before goes into different kinds of randori, a very important one for instance is training with a top senior player that will give you 'windows' and if you miss it, he counters you. Or for instance, with top players that change rhythm in a way that completely destroys your conditioning and you get tired in 1 minute, even if you think you are in top condition.

By the time people are 18-19 they are technically finished. You cannot add much more to their techniques except variety in the rhythm, not the technique itself, but how you go about getting it and at what point in the match. There is no magic and there are no secret techniques or 'special training sessions' to specifically exploit the rules. People usually have pretty basic techniques developed: kata-guruma, seio-nage, ouchi-, kouchi-, ucih-mata and osoto-..and that is what they develop how to do better via randori.

People want to raise their inherent level of judo, so they can win consistently that is not via exploiting super tricky rule sets. Its as simple as that. And winning in judo despite the rule changes is mostly done as it has always been done.

So, this 'training is hugely influenced by the rules' is simply not true. While you can keep fantasizing about things, I am telling you how they are.

CS,

I am actually interested in seeing Judo vs. BJJ in GI' matches. My experience and that of what I have seen in-person severely contradicts what is posted on the web.











6/27/10 1:52 PM
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JoshuaResnick
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I come down on the side of JudoM with this one... Rule changes like what has happened over the past few years do not change the manner in which people train. It might change a few small things for a few people, but overall it does not mean that the better judokas are not going to win still.

That's the main point here. If you are a guy, like me, who basically relied on a specific technique done in a specific way that was now made illegal, then you are in some trouble from a technical standpoint and need to do some serious work.

but, from a coaching standpoint, from a training standpoint, from a practice standpoint, from an overall goal standpoint.... nothing has changed. Practices are still practices, tournaments still tournaments.
6/28/10 12:02 AM
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judom
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glenn,

Your whole argument is that the new rules massively influence training everywhere. I am giving you as examples people who REALLY care about winning international competitions. And for those people, the rules did not affect anything. And Josh told you the same thing.

You, like many other people are mostly speculating, you don't know the fact. But just 2 weeks ago, I observed a national team practice and I can tell you that you are completely wrong. Period.

Perhaps, you would like to contact the national federations and explain them how they should change their training. That is also a possibility. You can find the contact information here: http://www.intjudo.eu/






6/28/10 1:50 AM
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Newaza freak
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Edited: 06/28/10 2:07 AM
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Glenn,

I hear your frustration loud and clear. I came on this forum a couple of days ago,after not comming on here for months and nothing has chagned here at all,as the same situation arises all the time. A simple technical dialgoue can never seem to get off the ground, cuz the same judo police elitist are always around just waiting to set people straight and show them just how much more they know than anyone else. It's really hilarious because it's always there hidden agenda,which always ends up with them telling you just how bad ass of a competitior they use to be,while another elitist police jumps in and and wants to elaborate on how many times he's been to japan and that he use to rub shoulders with kimura and wash his sandals for him. All of this always has to be spewed out just to answer a simple question and most of the time,it ends up escalating into a pissing contest, which leaves the single most important main question always unawnswered.


Often times whenever a rules question rears it's ugly head these guys usually get so defensive that it's almost like if your insulting their manhood. The funny part is that they always end up putting words into your mouth, that you never really even said to begin with and they will run with it for pages on end. The funny one now is about the better athletes that always adapt and can always win.......duh.......it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure this one out,as we see it all the time. Even in mma, when great super athletes from either wrestling or bjj backgrounds learn and adapt very well to even more drastic rule changes,than simply adapting to a new judo grip rule,most adapt well.......duh.......

I think that what these people don't really seem to understand is that people that complain about rules not complaining nesscarily because it's going to mess up their chances for future tournaments but more so because they want the art of judo to stay looking and feeling a certain way .I personaly am never going to compete in a world championships or olympics(duh) but as a longtime and hardocre fan of judo, I do not (and will not)watch judo, if they continue to eliminate most of the main ingredients that got me interested in judo to begin with.

The funniest part of all is when they come on here and talk down to you"hey boy your question has already been answered by the elite bow down as I should be thankful that they took the time to do so" get out of here, you have not answered a damm thing and cannot because you have picked the wrong side of the argument,simply because you somehow felt threathen by the question but not because you gave it much thought.

Please don't bother with a answer now, I can care less about a answer now ,really. I just realized now why and how things are done or not done in judo? There is never a good answer!
6/28/10 5:08 PM
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JoshuaResnick
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Glenn... you are so off base it is insane. you are also mixing apples and oranges from other threads and that makes about as much sense as me baking a cake with motor oil.

here's the jist of it...

1. judo is judo, bjj is bjj. the way you train is directly influenced by how the sports view the situations. there is no doubt in that. nobody is arguing otherwise, so your brining in what i said on a thread concerning judo and bjj in comparison is meaningless and, honestly, worthless.

2. within those individual rule sets there are some things that would make huge changes to the sports and some that would not. naturally, your adding leglocks to the competitive judo would make huge changes, but that is not what we are discussing. which is rather odd that somebody of your esteem would try to use that as an example, it is obvisouly not the strongest possible example.

3. the current rule changes re: not grabbing the pants/leg as the initial attack, have not made a huge change to international Judo. Like it or not, it hasn't. the proof is in the pudding. look who is winning and look who was winning prior to the changes. they are virtually the same people from the same countries with very little change. thus, your argument that something extrememly fundamental to competitive judo was altered is pretty much null and void. had your argument carried weight then we'd see a huge shifting in the people and countries who are being most successful. that has not happened.

4. you must remember we are also now under a world-cup qualifier to the olympic games. this has never been seen before and, thusly, part of understanding the world rankings must be done with financial means in mind. there are flat out some nations that can afford to send teams to nearly all events and there are nations that simply cannot. this has a much, much larger bearing on who is ranked where in the world than the rule changes.

5. lets truly examine the rule you are up in arms about... you cannot grab the pants/leg as the initial attack. it does not say you cannot do kataguruma or morote gari. it says you must do them secondly, after a strong initial attack is attempted. thus, it means the people who relied heavily on those throws must find alternate entries and patterns for them. that's it. nothing more, nothing less.

6. i was faced with a smiliar situation in 1999 when the backward finsih for kata guruma was eliminated. it meant i could not do the throw i was best at in the way i was best at doing it. it was a huge blow to my personal judo! BUT, it did not equate to a huge blow to my training, my team, the national coaches, or anybody else. I had to figure it out, it was all on me. Nothing else changed at all.

So, you can clearly see that all your ranting and raving have been for not. on the grand scheme of things, these changes have not altered Judo to a degree that people who would never have won before are now winning and those who did win before are now losing constantly. it just is not happening. thus, the changes have not been huge and detrimental to Judo in any way. sure, some people on the outside looking in might say negatives or some people within judo itself don't like the changes, count me among them, but that doesn't mean that Judo has somehow been altered in a way that has changed it from the core.

Further, Glenn... if you don't have the intelligence to understand that when comparing judo and bjj the discussion is different then when you compare judo to itself then i truly do not know what to say... i once thought you a fairly educated person, but now perhaps i think you just have a quick wit and little substance to back it up. i'd hope that to be wrong however... only you can prove that one way or the other.
6/28/10 8:54 PM
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barroids
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Duder you need help.
6/28/10 9:18 PM
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barroids
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How has Mongolia been placing this year in the lead up to the Worlds? They've been on a tear in recent years but they rely so much on the one-off leg grab, in like every video I've seen. If any country has to take a step back for a few years to develop first attacks, it has to be them.
6/28/10 9:32 PM
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barroids
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You take this shyt too seriously.

By the way there's no shame in kissing the ass of guys who can kick my ass. (And know more than me, which is the value of this forum.) Get the hint?

Also by the way, you seem to be under the impression that people don't understand your point, like it's too difficult to understand. Dude everyone understood your point (which was a valid enough point until you freaked out).
6/28/10 9:45 PM
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barroids
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Member Since: 4/1/06
Posts: 479
Alright I apologize for insulting you, that was wrong.

LOL shit I have actual judo practice now peace.
6/29/10 12:55 AM
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JoshuaResnick
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Member Since: 6/12/02
Posts: 12111
barroids...

thing is, the mongolians are not slipping in place at all. Look at where their athletes are placing when they show up. the only reason why you don't see more Mongolians in the #1 to #5 rankings is the rarity to how many events they compete in and the extrememly selective nature of who they send. They only send guys who they feel are tops in the world-- how often do you see a -81kg Mongolian? Not often. But you see a lot of 60 to 73kg and then 100kg sometimes.

some of the best event highlights from this season on the IJF facebook page are of Mongolians. trust me, they have adapted just fine.



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