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TMA UnderGround >> Karate questions


6/10/10 3:03 PM
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Ogami Itto
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Why is the fist chambered?

Should you be able to attack in all directions at all times?

I'll have more.
6/10/10 3:30 PM
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Ogami Itto
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How is power generated in the punches and kicks?

Are trapping, locks and throws part of the skillset?

Besides blocking, how else does karate evade blows?

I'm asking because I've never studied pure karate before but, rather, a kickboxing hybrid.
6/10/10 4:22 PM
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Ogami Itto
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Karate punching vid:

Shotakan (slow then fast - nice):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-a_0dc4aK08

Human Weapon diagram of punch:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nJsti-ZzXI

6/10/10 4:36 PM
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Ogami Itto
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Nice vid on kicking! I still think this is perfect for MMA. You get the strike(s) in, clinch, etc.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1baeb7YAJv4

This is Shotokan but I'd love for the direction of the convo to go anywhere.
8/17/10 6:15 PM
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MAG
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HughSlaman - 
Ogami Itto - Why is the fist chambered?

Should you be able to attack in all directions at all times?

I'll have more.



I'm not a karateka, but here is something I like about training to have the fist chambered at the hip.

In real life, as opposed to a training hall or a gym, fights can break out at any time, without any chance for preparation or squaring off. Where are your hands likely to be if you are attacked by someone? Probably by your side, and the fist chambered at the hip is a lot closer to that then the standard kickboxing guard.

Suppose someone is getting aggressive with me and I want to be ready to hit back, but I don't want to start anything and I don't want to look like I am voluntarily getting into a fight. It will defeat these goals if I raise my hands and adopt a kickboxing fighting stance (the police might well classify me as a troublemaker if shit goes down). But if I keep my fist chambered at the hip, it might be a bit easier to portray myself as the defender, while still being ready to launch a strike. And then it helps to have trained from that position.

I don't want to be dogmatic about any of this: it is just a thought.


I agree... it's a great starting position to sucker punch someone from! haha
8/18/10 11:57 AM
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damaebushi
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Ogami Itto - Why is the fist chambered?

Should you be able to attack in all directions at all times?

I'll have more.

 A few reasons off the top of my head for the chambering of the fist; it teaches beginners to use a "push/pull" motion to help w/power generation, use of hips and stance; many styles practice siezing and pulling in of the opponent while you punch him.  The chambering of the fist helps learn this motion.  In our style, we often do not chamber the punch, especially when sparring or practicing for sport technique.

Yes a person should be able to attack/defend in all directions @ all times.

Respectfully:

Fred
8/18/10 12:09 PM
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damaebushi
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Edited: 08/18/10 12:10 PM
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Ogami Itto - How is power generated in the punches and kicks?

Are trapping, locks and throws part of the skillset?

Besides blocking, how else does karate evade blows?

I'm asking because I've never studied pure karate before but, rather, a kickboxing hybrid.

 Power is generated (at least in our style) from a coordinated use of body momentum, rooting of the stance just prior to impact, use of the entire body from the feet, through the legs, the hips, lower back, chest, shoulders, arms, and tensing only right upon impact, knowing how to breath through the technique.   Speed also is imperative for striking power,  as is following through for maximum penetration and damage to the target.  We emphsize making impact with the smallest surface area possible, and developing those surface area to be able to withstand impact to deliver damage.  In punching, we often utilize a twist of the fist as we impact the target to add penetration/damage/power.

Trapping, locking and throws are very important components of the skillset, especially the more advanced the student becomes.

Angles, footwork, level changes, and controlling of range/distance are highly emhasized in addition to blocks and parries for evading blows.  Again, the more advanced the student becomes, the more this is emphasized.

The above are only my opinions, based on the style I practice, what I was taught by my Okinawan teachers, and my understanding.  It may not apply to other people/styles. 

Respectfully:

Fred
 
8/19/10 11:34 AM
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Ogami Itto
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Fred, what style?

You know, the reason I asked about being able to attack in all directions is I'm gonna go out a limb here and say this is not something pursued by the majority of MMA striking styles. Kickboxing and it's like teaches you to only worry about the guy in front of you, not side, not rear, and not being strong in both right and left, or power hand and off hand. Just my observation!
8/19/10 3:37 PM
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e. kaye
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Ogami Itto - Why is the fist chambered?

Should you be able to attack in all directions at all times?

I'll have more.

 It is a training technique.  Like the low stances.   At advanced levels everything is more subtle.

You should be able to attack in all directions regardless.
8/19/10 3:39 PM
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e. kaye
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Ogami Itto - How is power generated in the punches and kicks?    Rotation and the legs.  Movement. 

Are trapping, locks and throws part of the skillset?   Yes, but rarely taught anymore.  It is all in the katas.

Besides blocking, how else does karate evade blows? Tai Sabaki

I'm asking because I've never studied pure karate before but, rather, a kickboxing hybrid.

 
8/19/10 4:04 PM
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Ogami Itto
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e. kaye - 
Ogami Itto - Why is the fist chambered?

Should you be able to attack in all directions at all times?

I'll have more.

 It is a training technique.  Like the low stances.   At advanced levels everything is more subtle.

You should be able to attack in all directions regardless.


Would you agree kickboxing and ring fighting styles do a generally poor job of this.
8/19/10 4:13 PM
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e. kaye
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 Job of ????
8/19/10 4:28 PM
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Ogami Itto
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e. kaye -  Job of ????


Sorry, training a fighter to be able to fight in all directions. One thing that impresses me about karate is the ability to kick and punch in all directions, left hand/foot and right, front, side, rear. Kickboxing, not so much.
8/19/10 4:44 PM
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e. kaye
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 Kickboxing is technically a sport, where there is only one opponent.   So there is no reason for that.

Kickboxing as a martial art/self defense system is something else.  
8/20/10 1:44 PM
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damaebushi
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Edited: 08/20/10 1:45 PM
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Ogami Itto - Fred, what style?

You know, the reason I asked about being able to attack in all directions is I'm gonna go out a limb here and say this is not something pursued by the majority of MMA striking styles. Kickboxing and it's like teaches you to only worry about the guy in front of you, not side, not rear, and not being strong in both right and left, or power hand and off hand. Just my observation!

 The style I practice/teach is Okinawa Shorin Ryu Matsumura Kenpo.  It is the style of the Kuda family on Okinawa.  My teacher was the late Kuda Yuichi.  I now train with his son, Tomosada, whom I just trained with for a week in Germany.  I will be meeting him here in the U.S. again next month.  Kuda Yuichi formed the Matsumura Kenpo style.  He had quite a few teachers and training partners in Okinawa, but the main two that influenced him that anyone would recognize are Nakamura Shigeru (Okinawa Kenpo) and Soken Hohan (Matsumura Seito).

I agree with your thoughts in the 2nd paragraphs above, and those of e. kaye.

Respectfully:

Fred
 
8/20/10 2:21 PM
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Ogami Itto
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Glad to hear from you, Fred. Subject is always fascinating to me because my "karate" background is the Americanized Chinese Kempo that evolved into kickboxing, so I never studied pure pedigree karate and think it is underappreciated and unknown among people like me that move in kempo-like circles.
4/29/11 8:55 AM
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Kumite4
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Ogami Itto - Why is the fist chambered?

Should you be able to attack in all directions at all times?

I'll have more.

 There's a  couple reasons the hand gets chambered there.

First its to teach the student to launch the punch with the hips, have the hips turning as the punch leaves its resting position. Then to retract the fist back by pulling the hips out.

Second is to practice full range of motion.  We have a saying... "If it takes 3 feet to perform the punch you practice at 5 feet"
If you watch the high level Karate guys on the national teams you will notice they dont actually chamber their hand on the hip while fighting. The hand is held higher and more forward... about mid chest level. The fist is launched from that position to cut down on dead time. They practice throwing it from hip but in competition its not as over exagerated.
4/29/11 9:53 AM
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Ogami Itto
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Forgot how much I enjoyed this thread.

Thanks, Kumite.
6/4/11 1:21 AM
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MIKE CIESNOLEVICZ
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ttt
6/10/11 11:14 AM
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emiliozapata
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In my system of Isshinryu, we chamber for blocks as well using the opposite hip of the arm being used. I thought this was dumb until I played with grappling/grip fighting applications and realized it was most likely teaching circular movement, in/out power, covering the center as you enter etc.
6/12/11 3:07 AM
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Sajite
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when karate arrived to japan it became more a physical educational method than a fighting style...

Hikite was highlighted as a way of balancing body actions. You use pushing muscles for punching and retracting muscles for hikite...

Hikite was for beginners only in acient okinawa karate
For combative purpuses the study of nahifanchi was higly consider... almost no chambering in nahifanchi
6/13/11 9:52 AM
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Ogami Itto
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Hikite - backward hand? Hand moving backwards?

Nahifanchi - ???
6/15/11 11:19 PM
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emiliozapata
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Naihanchi (Naifhancii etc.) also known as tekki in japanese arts

I use chambering in naihanchi before the first down block, but again i think it is a grip fighting movement
6/16/11 5:07 AM
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Kolsyrade
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Ogami Itto - Hikite - backward hand? Hand moving backwards?


Hikite literally means pulling hand, the hand you pull back

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