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JKD UnderGround >> Fight Quest - wing chun.


6/16/10 12:04 PM
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HEMAN
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LOL.
Hmmmmmmm...seems like DOUG is more effective with the BOXING BLAST owning the wing chun man...opinions???

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcuhds5Lumo&feature=related
6/16/10 4:30 PM
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cprevost
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Both guys look pretty bad. Funny how Wing Chun in sparring always looks like bad boxing. Prolly better to study good boxing instead.
6/17/10 2:42 PM
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twinkletoesCT
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Just took my first two wing chun lessons recently (from two different instructors). It was....interesting.
6/17/10 6:22 PM
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HEMAN
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It took it for a year. Effective techniques? Ghost kicking which is a front push to the stomach or snap kick to the groin. Tactic...aggressive blitz of punches and kicks while moving forward. Very realistic for self defense. Move forward will keep the opponent backwards unable to counter.

Everything else? Garbage. Chain punching leaves you susceptible to haymakers/overhand rights due to the inability to block via bil sao additionally...there is no COVER since it's all or nothing style of fighting. Once in trapping range it's extremely difficult for these guys to control the arms. Based on the fight quest vidoes as well as others on the net...when face with full contact sparring...the wing chun stylist seem to fold when under pressure via boxing strikes. They are unable to pak or lop sao boxing strikes due to the punches retracting and mulitple combinations from all angles.
6/19/10 2:17 AM
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WidespreadPanic
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Wing chun was developed as a counter against 'long fist styles' which used a lot of swinging style punches and wide attacks which required 'winding up' and similar moves. They correctly deduced that using high forward pressure right up the center could potentially defeat such styles.

So the lesson to take is not to learn a 'watered-down' type of wing chun but to learn the principles (i.e. a high forward pressure type attack up the center can defeat a structurally slower wide swinging attack. So where WC makes a mistake is they typically leave out the high forward pressure (i.e. they stand there and try to 'block/parry', turning it into a static defense), and the wide attack develops its own 'pressure' and easily gets around a static WC type response.

If the opponent is not using a wide-swing attack (like a long fist style from the 1800s) then another response/tactic/strategy needs to be used, but a typical WC guy will not have wrestling, BJJ, judo, boxing skills to which they can turn and try to 'tweak' the WC style to deal and fail due to incorrect application or understanding of the principles.

When BL used a WC type of response, he -always- used a lot of strong forward pressure, and it's this which allowed him to make WC type responses work in a wider variety of circumstances. Of course, he also had phenomenal speed which put him a level above most people to begin with.

$0.02
6/21/10 6:33 PM
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Calbert
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As a long time wing chun guy who has also been cross training for years, let me throw in my two cents.

1. The blitzing aspect of wing chun is paramount when fighting. However, if you rush forward and continually attack in any fighting system without any regard for punches being thrown back at you then you will get hit often. There are ways to give blitzing pressure and still be mindful of being countered.

2. If you abandon your structure (i.e. hands dropping by your sides after throwing punches) in any fighting system you will get hit often.

3. Any fighter that doesn't cross train and is therefore ignorant of the techniques, counters, etc. that can be used against him will not fare well against other fighters.

Now, those were the issues I had with the fighting in the video that are not specific to wing chun. However, I do think there are some wing chun specific problems.

1. Like WidespreadPanic mentioned, many wing chun guys are taught to play a very passive fighting strategy where they sit back and try to pick off attacks like some guy in a kung fu movie. This, IMO, goes against wing chun theory and will therefore not work out too well.

2. Wing chun guys (and other kung fu guys for that matter) tend not to train to actually fight. There is a lot of time spent on attribute building drills that make you good at the wing chun techniques but they tend not to spend much time defending against anything other than wing chun attacks. Not training to actually fight (but theoretically discussing what would happen in a fight) also makes it so conditioning is de-emphasized.

Overall, I think wing chun principles are sound and the techniques are sound, but if you don't train to perform in a given environment you won't rise to the occasion just because you have good theories. Unfortunately, many wing chun guys don't train in a manner that is conducive to the realities of fighting so they perform poorly against those that do (boxers, kickboxers, etc.), and they tend to abandon their structure because they aren't use to the pressure. I do think it's still a great system however. I just think that certain training methods have to be emphasized to remind you that you're training for a fight.

C.J.
6/21/10 9:30 PM
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Lord Kancho
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Am I the only one who thinks it's insanely easy to hook off a straight blast? (as in while you perform a straight blast, not when one is coming at you) Never understood why I've never seen anyone else do it.
6/21/10 11:26 PM
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twinkletoesCT
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Calbert - Overall, I think wing chun principles are sound and the techniques are sound, but if you don't train to perform in a given environment you won't rise to the occasion just because you have good theories.


If you replace "wing chun" with the name of any other TMA I've trained, this is a beautifully articulate way of describing a very common quality they share.

Well said, sir.
6/22/10 8:25 PM
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Lord Kancho
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-cvJXxzXbVk

Interesting vid. Boxing compared to wing chun.
6/22/10 8:41 PM
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Lord Kancho
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now that I watched the vid to the end, it was less interesting and more funny.
6/29/10 5:36 PM
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Calbert
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"The problem is if WC starts to train in the manner that you suggest, then it will no longer be WC but something else.

That's what happens when you abandon TMA principles. You'll just end up learning how to box/kickbox."



I know that is the general consensus, but I don't think it's entirely true. The thing is, when people are getting overwhelmed with punches (especially to the face) they tend to either drop their head and cover up or stick their hands straight out toward the obstacle as they turn their head away. I think the reason the majority of people are able to achieve a basic level of ability in boxing/kickboxing is because the gross body mechanics allow them to respond in a similar way that they would "naturally" (i.e. covering up when having punches thrown at them). However, when instilled properly (when endless reps are performed and progressive resistance is implemented) instinctual habits can be changed.

Now, why would you want these instincts changed? Well in my experience, with every martial art comes an underlying theory of what happens in a fight and how to approach it accordingly. With each approach you have to decide what's important and what's not so important. Boxing/kickboxing teaches maximal punching power with heal lift and hip rotation along with the dynamic footwork. Because wing chun is not really concerned with the outside fight (wing chun is designed for self-defense so according to theory if you're not close enough to touch me then there is no real threat) we sacrifice maximal power from hip rotation for "good enough" power while still keeping proper elbow position (to help prevent opponent from getting past our defense and controlling our core) and base (controlled center of gravity with both feet flat on the floor to prevent getting pushed or pulled around - much like in Gracie Jiujitsu). Also, because the outside fight isn't a concern we sacrifice dynamic footwork for maximum stability.

There are various other examples of why you would do one thing over another, but the basic point is that if you train with progressive resistance you can teach yourself to respond under pressure in a way that doesn't look like boxing/kickboxing. Now, I'm not saying everybody can do it. According to Dave Grossman, the majority of soldiers in a combat situation are not taking disciplined accurate shots when being fired upon. Only a small few are doing that while most of the others are staying under cover and/or "spraying and praying." This shows us that even with a lot of training the majority of people won't perform specific movements the way they are trained. So like I said, I don't think wing chun is for everyone as I only personally know a handful of people that execute it under pressure. However, I also don't believe that boxing/kickboxing is objectively true.

C.J.
6/30/10 8:06 AM
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Kai Tremeche
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Calbert - 
There are various other examples of why you would do one thing over another, but the basic point is that if you train with progressive resistance you can teach yourself to respond under pressure in a way that doesn't look like boxing/kickboxing.

C.J.


I appreciate your input, but the problem is: there are NO examples of people who can respond effectively under pressure in a way that doesn't look like boxing/kickboxing.

This is even more true when those people are facing other trained fighters.
6/30/10 8:46 AM
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twinkletoesCT
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^^^Many people said the same about Karate, but Machida has become the common counter-example.

I wonder, sometimes, if we aren't so accustomed to seeing boxing/kickboxing, wrestling/muay thai clinchwork, and BJJ-esque groundwork that we aren't doing ourselves a grand disservice by comparing so many things to them.

Machida showed that there is a way to create a functional delivery system out of traditional karate by modifying the training methods for better "real world testing." Isn't that what many have asked TMA people to do in today's MMA-dominated field?

Imagine that a silat group comes up with a way of creating a functional delivery system that uses silat techniques under pressure in an effective way. Certainly, they'll have made changes along the way, and eliminated techniques, but that doesn't mean they'll have replaced everything--just like Machida hasn't replaced everything in his karate.

I think it's impossible to announce to ourselves that no Wing Chun group (or whomever) couldn't do the same.

It doesn't mean anyone HAS and it doesn't mean anyone HASN'T, but I'm open to the possibility that they COULD.
6/30/10 5:19 PM
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twinkletoesCT
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To keep the discussion going, here's a video I saw today.

Do I think that these competitors would stand up well against kickboxers with equal training? Probably not.

Does that mean they haven't developed ANY effectiveness with their clearly WC delivery system? No, I would say that they HAVE some level of effectiveness.

Would I train with these guys? It depends on what I'm trying to develop. There are some times in the arc of my training when I might, and some times when I might not.
6/30/10 6:41 PM
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Lord Kancho
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I have to ask... what is the effectiveness of WC in that video? Two people straightblasting each other seemed to incur and distribute no damage. An untrained brute windmilling a haymaker could shrug those off as easily as the fighters, except his punch would be a LOT more devestating.

That video decreased my regard for WC.
6/30/10 7:42 PM
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Kai Tremeche
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twinkletoesCT - ^^^Many people said the same about Karate, but Machida has become the common counter-example.


I knew you were bringing up Machida.

I was working on a long post about 2010, death of the Anomaly. About how both Machida (Karate) and Fedor (Sambo/Judo) have recently lost, but that's not here nor there.

The thing about Machida is that he's not TMA. He's hitting pads, he's wearing boxing gloves, he's sparring with headgear on. He's basically training not unlike any other other fighter out there. Once you radically change the training methods, it's no longer a TMA.

Additionally, when the chips are down, he resorts to the same right and left hook combination to put people away.
6/30/10 8:58 PM
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twinkletoesCT
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Kancho - would it work against an untrained attacker? Possibly. I have no idea how to test that watching a video, but it's my intuition.

I'm not saying that video makes me want to go train WC, but I don't think that's the discussion here.

Kai,

Machida is not the only anomaly out there, though.

People said "Judo is TMA and wrong for MMA" until Karo. Now we see others doing it.

People said "Karate is TMA and wrong for MMA" until Lyoto. I'm sure we'll see others do it.

Anderson uses Savate in his matches (when he engages), and others are jumping on the bandwagon. Sakuraba brought catchwrestling up against BJJ.

I think these people are "anomalous" because they go against the popular idea that "boxing + leg checks, greco + knees + sprawling, and BJJ + ground n pound is the recipe everyone needs for MMA", not because they have some superhuman ability to make these other styles work.

I understand that "he's not TMA". I'm saying that I think other people could train styles NOT on the list in my last paragraph and be "not TMA" by that standard. I do believe that's what we've been discussing...whether or not they can. I think that they can.
7/1/10 12:04 AM
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OneScoup
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cprevost - Both guys look pretty bad. Funny how Wing Chun in sparring always looks like bad boxing. Prolly better to study good boxing instead.


This is what I concluded 10 years ago. Smartest observation I ever made.
7/1/10 4:08 PM
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Lord Kancho
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twinkletoesCT - Kancho - would it work against an untrained attacker? Possibly.


Can't argue that. But my real question is, would it work against a dangerous attacker?
7/1/10 4:49 PM
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FatBuddha
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"I appreciate your input, but the problem is: there are NO examples of people who can respond effectively under pressure in a way that doesn't look like boxing/kickboxing."

1. Pre-kickboxing Royce Gracie - Gracie Jiu-jitsu
2. Rickson Gracie - Gracie Jiu-jitsu
3. Carlson Gracie - Gracie Jiu-jitsu
4. Helio Gracie - Gracie Jiu-jitsu
5. Relson Gracie - Gracie Jiu-jitsu
6. Eddie Camden - Wing Chun
7. Steve Broughman - Wing Chun

All have at least dozens of street fights or old no holds barred no rules matches demonstrating a standing structure that is different from kickboxing/boxing

I could also mention the old judo masters like Mifune with documented successful street fights, and whatever he was doing standing, I'm sure it wasn't western boxing/kickboxing
7/3/10 12:49 PM
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Lord Kancho
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6. Eddie Camden - Wing Chun
7. Steve Broughman - Wing Chun


It was quite a blow for me to realize there are people I can't find on youtube.
7/3/10 8:57 PM
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Kai Tremeche
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FatBuddha - "I appreciate your input, but the problem is: there are NO examples of people who can respond effectively under pressure in a way that doesn't look like boxing/kickboxing."

1. Pre-kickboxing Royce Gracie - Gracie Jiu-jitsu
2. Rickson Gracie - Gracie Jiu-jitsu
3. Carlson Gracie - Gracie Jiu-jitsu
4. Helio Gracie - Gracie Jiu-jitsu
5. Relson Gracie - Gracie Jiu-jitsu
6. Eddie Camden - Wing Chun
7. Steve Broughman - Wing Chun

All have at least dozens of street fights or old no holds barred no rules matches demonstrating a standing structure that is different from kickboxing/boxing


But not effectively, that's the qualifier.

Also, with the BJJ examples, saying that they had a standup structure is like saying that Atheists have a religion, or calling Wild Bill Hickock the best knife fighter ever.

Also, as I've said in an essay: YouTube has allowed us to debunk from now into the past. You can put it on video, it's not hard. If it didn't happen on video, it's pretty much hearsay.
7/4/10 1:15 AM
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Lord Kancho
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S19VsB7__v0&feature=related

supposedly two kung fu masters, flailing like children. Not trying to dig, it was just interesting to see.
7/5/10 9:52 AM
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twinkletoesCT
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Where do we place Cung Le in this discussion?

He obviously trains a mix of things lately, but he's another guy with a TMA-esque delivery system that he trains by gloving up and getting into the ring.
7/5/10 2:35 PM
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Kai Tremeche
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twinkletoesCT - Where do we place Cung Le in this discussion?

He obviously trains a mix of things lately, but he's another guy with a TMA-esque delivery system that he trains by gloving up and getting into the ring.


San Shou/Da is a modern alive sportive martial art.

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