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JKD UnderGround >> Fight Quest - wing chun.


7/5/10 4:08 PM
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HEMAN
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twinkletoesCT - Where do we place Cung Le in this discussion?

He obviously trains a mix of things lately, but he's another guy with a TMA-esque delivery system that he trains by gloving up and getting into the ring.


What TMA delievery system??? He fights in a kickboxing stance using boxing and western kickboxing concepts.
7/5/10 4:41 PM
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twinkletoesCT
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Cung Le = kickboxing yet Machida = TMA ???

Seriously?
7/5/10 6:20 PM
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Kai Tremeche
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twinkletoesCT - Cung Le = kickboxing yet Machida = TMA ???

Seriously?


Machida isn't TMA either, he hits pads, heavy bag, wears boxing headgear and gloves like everyone else.
7/6/10 1:09 AM
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FatBuddha
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"Also, as I've said in an essay: YouTube has allowed us to debunk from now into the past. You can put it on video, it's not hard. If it didn't happen on video, it's pretty much hearsay."

so the Civil War or slavery never happened because they're not on youtube? How about the jujutsu masters that trained Kano - could they fight?
7/6/10 6:28 AM
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Kai Tremeche
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FatBuddha - "Also, as I've said in an essay: YouTube has allowed us to debunk from now into the past. You can put it on video, it's not hard. If it didn't happen on video, it's pretty much hearsay."

so the Civil War or slavery never happened because they're not on youtube? How about the jujutsu masters that trained Kano - could they fight?


How directly relevant is that to today's training? That's the problem.

It's like arguing lineage. It all is ultimately trumped by performance, either in coaching or fighting.

For example: If you had a chance to train with the Machados or Royce, who would you train with? The answer is: the Machados, because they produce champions who haven't trained since birth.
7/6/10 8:12 AM
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Kai Tremeche
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Returning to the conversation, everything that happens these days is on video. People carry video cameras in their pockets that have better resolution than the cameras we had back in the 80s.
7/6/10 9:15 AM
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twinkletoesCT
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Kai Tremeche - 
twinkletoesCT - Cung Le = kickboxing yet Machida = TMA ???

Seriously?


Machida isn't TMA either, he hits pads, heavy bag, wears boxing headgear and gloves like everyone else.


So do the wing chun guys in the first videos. And if not them, other WC guys out there are doing it.

No, it doesn't look like good boxing. But it does look like something ELSE. Imagine that!
7/6/10 9:40 AM
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Kai Tremeche
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Which videos exactly, there's a half dozen posted here.
7/7/10 7:56 PM
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HEMAN
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twinkletoesCT - Cung Le = kickboxing yet Machida = TMA ???

Seriously?


LOL! I guess you don't know much about Cung Le do you???

His only TMA background is TKD and if you want to argue WRESTLING...hell throw in BOXING as a TMA.

7/7/10 7:57 PM
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HEMAN
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twinkletoesCT - 
Kai Tremeche - 
twinkletoesCT - Cung Le = kickboxing yet Machida = TMA ???

Seriously?


Machida isn't TMA either, he hits pads, heavy bag, wears boxing headgear and gloves like everyone else.


So do the wing chun guys in the first videos. And if not them, other WC guys out there are doing it.

No, it doesn't look like good boxing. But it does look like something ELSE. Imagine that!


I agree...it looks like CRAP = Bad boxing.
7/7/10 11:55 PM
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FatBuddha
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"How directly relevant is that to today's training? That's the problem.

It's like arguing lineage. It all is ultimately trumped by performance, either in coaching or fighting.

For example: If you had a chance to train with the Machados or Royce, who would you train with? The answer is: the Machados, because they produce champions who haven't trained since birth."

I'm a bit confused what we're debating since the conversation seems all over the place. I would (and have) choose to train with Royce over the Machados. The question is champions in what? No holds barred fighting or sport jiu-jitsu?
7/8/10 7:45 AM
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Kai Tremeche
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Edited: 07/08/10 8:07 AM
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FatBuddha - 
I'm a bit confused what we're debating since the conversation seems all over the place. I would (and have) choose to train with Royce over the Machados. The question is champions in what? No holds barred fighting or sport jiu-jitsu?


How many champions has Royce trained produced for BJJ or MMA?

How many have the Machado's trained?

But this is a bit off subject, it was just a sidetrack about lineage.
7/9/10 2:52 PM
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FatBuddha
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I actually don't know. As far as I know the Machados haven't produced any UFC champions, and Royce was UFC champion. Additionally, the Machados teach sport jiujitsu. I definitely would go with them if I wanted to train for a sport jj match. If I wanted to win a no rules fight, I'd go with Royce.
7/9/10 2:53 PM
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FatBuddha
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(and again I'm talking about pre-kickboxing Royce)
7/9/10 3:10 PM
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Kai Tremeche
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FatBuddha - I actually don't know. As far as I know the Machados haven't produced any UFC champions, and Royce was UFC champion. Additionally, the Machados teach sport jiujitsu. I definitely would go with them if I wanted to train for a sport jj match. If I wanted to win a no rules fight, I'd go with Royce.


I don't think Royce's accomplishments matter as much as his coaching.

Having problems finding who the Machados have produced, so let's change it to Renzo Gracie.

Royce hasn't produced any champions in BJJ or MMA.

Where Renzo has at least produced Ricardo Almeida, who is a major champion and has produced MMA champions.

As a 'fighter' it's about what you accomplished.

As a coach, it's about what your students accomplish.

Performance is always relevant.
7/10/10 10:05 AM
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springy palm
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when it comes to modern day Wing Chun, the best person to show that is an instructor by the name of Alan Orr. Alan is from England and was part of one of MMA's first plus largest fight teams: The Shark Tank. Here is Alan showing his Wing Chun

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZnWuEwzmwM

Also, I noticed Wing Chun is usually a hot topic here, so I will like to share with you that you may be seeing wing chun displayed on the show: The Ultimate Fighter. It will not be on the up coming season but the one after it.

The wc fighter to compete is from New York and his name is Shawn Obasi. Here is a video of one of his fights

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhBszG6x33Q

and here is an interview with Shawn Obasi

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eb23neZBShY

7/10/10 2:13 PM
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Kai Tremeche
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springy palm - 

The wc fighter to compete is from New York and his name is Shawn Obasi. Here is a video of one of his fights

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhBszG6x33Q

and here is an interview with Shawn Obasi

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eb23neZBShY



...A grappling match isn't a fight in my book.
7/10/10 7:01 PM
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springy palm
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"..A grappling match isn't a fight in my book."

How about this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVyrNR39m3E&feature=PlayList&p=D0CCF7A85111B220&playnext_from=PL&index=0&playnext=1

and this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZ9sB0pumXU
7/10/10 8:34 PM
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Kai Tremeche
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Watched those videos, Springy.

What's the right uppercut called in Wing Chun?

Weird I don't see him in Sherdog's list of fighters?

From a website detailing Obasi:

"...the 250-pound Grados Wing Chun representative lost via TKO after nearly seven minutes of fevered scrapping."

"Fast-forward to the present, where, with grappling knowledge courtesy of Alliance Jiu-Jitsu in Manhattan, the Nigerian-born Bronx native has put himself back on the winning track"

Just saying.
7/10/10 8:35 PM
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Kai Tremeche
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Found him!

http://www.mixedmartialarts.com/f/AFE770168F222301/Chidozie-Obasi/
7/11/10 1:45 AM
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springy palm
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Kai, I am just an messenger but I did hear shawn say on an interview that he is on a 5 win winning streak. I will see if I can get shawn to comment here.

Here are two other links of shawn being interviewed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMa1NGFZ56M

and

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-SmA1GTGsc&feature=related
7/11/10 10:47 AM
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Boyscout
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No, it doesn't look like good boxing. But it does look like something ELSE. Imagine that!

We debate this issue a lot in my training group. I think attacks/street fights do look like something else.

When a mma guys gets stabbed it does not look like MMA, it looks like something ugly. So why not train ugly as well.

That's how I feel today anyway, it may change tomorrow.

I think we all being our own bias with us and that can be our downfall.

http://richardsackville.blogspot.com/2010/07/biased-towards-pretty-things.html
7/11/10 11:32 AM
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Kai Tremeche
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Edited: 07/11/10 11:32 AM
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Boyscout - 

No, it doesn't look like good boxing. But it does look like something ELSE. Imagine that!


We debate this issue a lot in my training group. I think attacks/street fights do look like something else.

When a mma guys gets stabbed it does not look like MMA, it looks like something ugly. So why not train ugly as well.

That's how I feel today anyway, it may change tomorrow.

I think we all being our own bias with us and that can be our downfall.

http://richardsackville.blogspot.com/2010/07/biased-towards-pretty-things.html


Yeah, because MMA guys get stabbed all the time. So do TMA-ers, and they look just as bad, what do you know?
7/11/10 11:34 AM
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Kai Tremeche
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springy palm - Kai, I am just an messenger but I did hear shawn say on an interview that he is on a 5 win winning streak. I will see if I can get shawn to comment here.

Here are two other links of shawn being interviewed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMa1NGFZ56M

and

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-SmA1GTGsc&feature=related


Nah, it's good that he's training in BJJ now and pretty much an MMA-er.

I'm just wondering what in Wing Chun the uppercut is called? Also the right and left hooks from way outside the centerline?
7/11/10 1:52 PM
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Boyscout
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Yeah, because MMA guys get stabbed all the time. So do TMA-ers, and they look just as bad, what do you know?<br /></blockquote><br /><br /><br /><br />

I know that it's easier to stab someone who has no knife training, than it is to stab someone who is trained to deal with the knife at a fundemential level.

MMA sets you up to be killed and wearing the latest siver star tee shirt makes it easy to spot your mark.

Name any MMA star who has dealt with a knife attack.....

Andy Murry ------- epic fail

Rickson ---------- no - bottled it

Renzo----------

How's about Rampage? -------whoops.

Fador--------- ask him, he's very honist about why he got into combat sombo.

Name TMA's - loads of people Geoff Thompsom, Kelly McCann and me.

The fact is MMA does not train weapons and most of the world uses them. You only have to look at how MMA guys hold their hands to spot the issue. At least TMA looks like TMA when they are dealing with a knife, bwecause that's what they train for.

Ask me another.

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