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JKD UnderGround >> Fight Quest - wing chun.


7/11/10 2:47 PM
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Kai Tremeche
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Edited: 07/11/10 2:50 PM
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Boyscout - 
Yeah, because MMA guys get stabbed all the time. So do TMA-ers, and they look just as bad, what do you know?






I know that it's easier to stab someone who has no knife training, than it is to stab someone who is trained to deal with the knife at a fundemential level.

MMA sets you up to be killed and wearing the latest siver star tee shirt makes it easy to spot your mark.

Name any MMA star who has dealt with a knife attack.....

Andy Murry ------- epic fail

Rickson ---------- no - bottled it

Renzo----------

How's about Rampage? -------whoops.

Fador--------- ask him, he's very honist about why he got into combat sombo.

Name TMA's - loads of people Geoff Thompsom, Kelly McCann and me.

The fact is MMA does not train weapons and most of the world uses them. You only have to look at how MMA guys hold their hands to spot the issue. At least TMA looks like TMA when they are dealing with a knife, bwecause that's what they train for.

Ask me another.


Rampage wasn't badly wounded.

Faber had a crowd with knives chasing him and he wasn't killed.

LOL @ MMA setting you up to get you killed. You must live in a very strange area where people roll around looking for people to stab.

I know dozens of MMA trained people bouncing who've been just fine against the knife. I also know MMA trained people who've dealt with handguns and lived.

Doing one step sparring and kata doesn't prepare you for the knife.

Against a knife TMA looks like it usually does: ineffective.

There's a reason why people fight with weapons: They give you a severe advantage over someone who is unarmed.
7/12/10 1:00 PM
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Boyscout
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LOL @ MMA setting you up to get you killed. You must live in a very strange area where people roll around looking for people to stab.

I know dozens of MMA trained people bouncing who've been just fine against the knife. I also know MMA trained people who've dealt with handguns and lived.

Doing one step sparring and kata doesn't prepare you for the knife.

Against a knife TMA looks like it usually does: ineffective.

There's a reason why people fight with weapons: They give you a severe advantage over someone who is unarmed.

Taking your points one at a time from the top:

I live in a posh part of London, knife is the preferred weapon of choice for muggers. Rather than me note all the counties where knife crime is very prevalent, why don’t you name me one where it’s not or is not on the rise?

Can’t, can you.

Well you could say Japan but they massage the figures.

I know lots of people who do MMA and work the doors and they all seem to get stabbed or glassed at some point or have a near miss. Guess where they go to learn how to deal with the knife if they survive and it’s not the local MMA gym, it’s normally a TMA class that deals with knifes at a fundamental level.

And as I said before, that’s why TMA’s have a different structure and look strange, because they train to deal with a weapon.

You seem to be telling me that it’s ok not to train weapons and have a flawed structure; I just don’t buy it. For example do you know of any successful army in the world that does not train to deal with the task at hand? Can you imagine an army that does not train to deal with RPG’s, just because not too many people have them? Most of the world uses knifes successfully and MMA leaves you woefully short changed.

Now before you chime in, I am not advocated living in a constant state of hyper state like some Jason Bourne urban soldier, I am talking about training to deal with weapons as a fundamental level.

With regards to one step sparring and katas etc.

If you take two people in isolation and train one in MMA and the other in basic knife defence, guess which one is going to get stabbed when you run a training assault. I dare you to try it and report back. The results surprised a lot of people including the US army.

There is also a further point, most TMA’s don’t stop at one step sparring, they progress to free flow against resistance. Ring any bells? There is also no reason why you can’t use the SBG three I’s method to train knife defence but your structure will change from a MMA guard if you do.

Guess what you will look like, when you start having to cover the high and low lines – a bad wing chun man.

If as you say there is a reason why people fight with knifes, don’t you think you should include it at a fundamental level?

TMA does and that’s why it looks different.

Now I like debates and want to carry on but I am going to be third world visiting for two months, so hopefully others will keep it going until I get back.......

Richard


7/12/10 1:30 PM
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Lord Kancho
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Boyscout - 
LOL @ MMA setting you up to get you killed. You must live in a very strange area where people roll around looking for people to stab.

I know dozens of MMA trained people bouncing who've been just fine against the knife. I also know MMA trained people who've dealt with handguns and lived.

Doing one step sparring and kata doesn't prepare you for the knife.

Against a knife TMA looks like it usually does: ineffective.

There's a reason why people fight with weapons: They give you a severe advantage over someone who is unarmed.


Taking your points one at a time from the top:

I live in a posh part of London, knife is the preferred weapon of choice for muggers. Rather than me note all the counties where knife crime is very prevalent, why don’t you name me one where it’s not or is not on the rise?

Can’t, can you.

Well you could say Japan but they massage the figures.

I know lots of people who do MMA and work the doors and they all seem to get stabbed or glassed at some point or have a near miss. Guess where they go to learn how to deal with the knife if they survive and it’s not the local MMA gym, it’s normally a TMA class that deals with knifes at a fundamental level.

And as I said before, that’s why TMA’s have a different structure and look strange, because they train to deal with a weapon.

You seem to be telling me that it’s ok not to train weapons and have a flawed structure; I just don’t buy it. For example do you know of any successful army in the world that does not train to deal with the task at hand? Can you imagine an army that does not train to deal with RPG’s, just because not too many people have them? Most of the world uses knifes successfully and MMA leaves you woefully short changed.

Now before you chime in, I am not advocated living in a constant state of hyper state like some Jason Bourne urban soldier, I am talking about training to deal with weapons as a fundamental level.

With regards to one step sparring and katas etc.

If you take two people in isolation and train one in MMA and the other in basic knife defence, guess which one is going to get stabbed when you run a training assault. I dare you to try it and report back. The results surprised a lot of people including the US army.

There is also a further point, most TMA’s don’t stop at one step sparring, they progress to free flow against resistance. Ring any bells? There is also no reason why you can’t use the SBG three I’s method to train knife defence but your structure will change from a MMA guard if you do.

Guess what you will look like, when you start having to cover the high and low lines – a bad wing chun man.

If as you say there is a reason why people fight with knifes, don’t you think you should include it at a fundamental level?

TMA does and that’s why it looks different.

Now I like debates and want to carry on but I am going to be third world visiting for two months, so hopefully others will keep it going until I get back.......

Richard




This is a weird argument to make. Certainly not all TMAs are useful in a knife fight. In fact, even TMAs like the Filipino knife-fighting arts (as in arts exclusively dedicated to the knife) had their eyes opened when people like the Dog Brothers came along.

To think that TMAs like TKD, karate, or kung fu offer any realistic chance surviving a knife is odd.
7/12/10 1:42 PM
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Kai Tremeche
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Lord Kancho - 


This is a weird argument to make. Certainly not all TMAs are useful in a knife fight. In fact, even TMAs like the Filipino knife-fighting arts (as in arts exclusively dedicated to the knife) had their eyes opened when people like the Dog Brothers came along.

To think that TMAs like TKD, karate, or kung fu offer any realistic chance surviving a knife is odd.



It is a very weird argument to make and has no basis in reality.
7/12/10 1:48 PM
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Kai Tremeche
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Edited: 07/12/10 1:58 PM
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Boyscout -

I know lots of people who do MMA and work the doors and they all seem to get stabbed or glassed at some point or have a near miss. Guess where they go to learn how to deal with the knife if they survive and it's not the local MMA gym, it's normally a TMA class that deals with knifes at a fundamental level.



Every TMA deals with knives at a fundamental level? That's news to me and goes against every bit of experience and research I've seen. I never saw much curriculum in Wing Chun, Karate or Tae Kwon Do that dealt with a realistic knife attack.

They definitely don't seem to have any answers that the MMA guys don't have as well.


You seem to be telling me that it's ok not to train weapons and have a flawed structure; I just don't buy it. For example do you know of any successful army in the world that does not train to deal with the task at hand? Can you imagine an army that does not train to deal with RPG's, just because not too many people have them? Most of the world uses knifes successfully and MMA leaves you woefully short changed.


Straw man, you are making your own argument to counter against and attributing it to me. Please try again.

The RPG analogy is horribly stupid and simply doesn't work. The western armed forces have to deal with an enormous amount of RPG fire. There are fire teams in parts of the Middle east and Africa that are almost all RPGs.



If you take two people in isolation and train one in MMA and the other in basic knife defence, guess which one is going to get stabbed when you run a training assault. I dare you to try it and report back. The results surprised a lot of people including the US army.


1) Find the study.
2) Congrats for stating the obvious: If I took someone and trained them to jump hurdles, and trained someone to play football, then stuck them in the 600m hurdles, why are we surprised who won?

In my own experience and in the experience of other trainers (Dog Brothers, Thornton); they have found the opposite of your argument. If you take someone MMA trained and introduce them with some basic concepts on how to deal and use the weapon, they excel over those who are just trained in a classical TMA style of weapon defense and use.

There is also a further point, most TMA's don't stop at one step sparring, they progress to free flow against resistance. Ring any bells? There is also no reason why you can't use the SBG three I's method to train knife defence but your structure will change from a MMA guard if you do.


I've rarely seen any non-sportive MA's that have realistic sparring.

There's a reason why the Dog Brothers were killing people with weapon fighting and it didn't have as much to do with their style as it did with their training methods.

The whole weapon argument is why most MMA schools tell students to not fight on the street and especially against a weapon. Instead of putting false kung-fu-movie fantasies in your head, you are told to deescalate and flee when that fails.

The reason we hear about MMA trained people getting stabbed is the fact that people get into scraps and quickly gain the upper hand, which results in their attacker escalating the level of engagement.

You don't hear about TMAers having the same thing happen to them because they usually don't end up winning against the average thug. There's no reason to pull a knife when you've already 'John Wayne'-ed someone so that their own their ass.
7/12/10 1:50 PM
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Kai Tremeche
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Also:

It's

knives



not

knifes

7/12/10 3:17 PM
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Boyscout
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Folks, before the "knives" come out, someone has been playing a joke on me.

Have changed my pass word.

If you want to know what I really think, check out my first 400 posts...........

Regards

Richard
7/12/10 3:34 PM
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Kai Tremeche
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Member Since: 7/6/00
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Boyscout - Folks, before the "knives" come out, someone has been playing a joke on me.

Have changed my pass word.

If you want to know what I really think, check out my first 400 posts...........

Regards

Richard


Okay, so I've been arguing with an ghost account?
7/16/10 5:59 PM
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TheSource
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According what this guy stated there were some issues with the producers asking guys who were not fighters to take part in the final fight. I thought when I saw this that the guys there were fighting were like the best fighters wing chun had to offer.
http://riccardodivito.blogspot.com/2010/07/interview-with-alex-richter-ewto.html


However, since I used to train WT (was assistant instructor) and left to train MMA cause it just isn't applicable for modern urban street fighting I can say without a doubt that I dont think it would have mattered cause all the wing chun (WT) fighters i ever met or heard of trained to fight out of a san shou gym :)

Personally i think that MMA combined with some basic rbsd training is more useful and realistic. MMA (live sparring) enables me to control the adrenaline dump and to think while fighting under pressure. TMA'ers dont have that ability as much and I feel that while they may focus more on the pure street self-defense including weapons, they just dont have the mental preparation to be effective even with good realistic techniques.


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