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Cigars, Beer & Poker Ground >> Can you lay down a K high flush in this case?

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7/9/10 12:18 PM
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andre
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Edited: 07/09/10 4:46 PM
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O.k., Im at the $200 table ($3/$5 blinds). I'm dealt Kh Jh in the cut off. The button is a decent player who seems to be running hot because he has close to $2000 on a table that lets you buy up to $300 max if you are felted.

Two players limp before me, and one of them is UTG so I resist the urge to raise. Im not a fan of K-J, but I since it's suited and because of my position, I think I could raise here, but I dont feel I can call a 3-bet so I dont take the chance given UTG's limp. The button limps in and the blinds do so as well.

The flop comes Th-3h-Qd. I've got a flush draw and a gutshot straight. UTG bets $30, and everyone calls but the blinds. I considered raising considering the strength of my draw, but I put UTG on a big hand and thought I could see the turn for cheap and let him bet into me if I hit my hand.

The turn: 6h. I make my flush. UTG checks, middle position checks, I bet $100 into a pot containing about $150. The button and UTG call, middle position folds.

The river: 8c.

UTG checks, I bet $200. The button shoves. UTG folds and it's on me.

I have $200 left and the pot contains $450. I call immediately and the button turns over Ah-5h. I thought it was the right call, but one of the regulars I play with said it was an easy laydown.

Any thoughts?
7/9/10 1:27 PM
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billid
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I find when you analyze your hand you contradict yourself a lot. For example when you say you resist the urge to raise due to a limper from UTG. I'm thinking you're worried he is trapping with a big hand, then why are you even getting involved with KJ? What do you do when he bets into a K high flop and barrels the turn and river giving you perfect odds to call? You'll be eating yourself up inside that he's sitting with AA, AK, KQ and taking you for a ride. If you're scared of a 4bet then fold to the 4bet, nothing wrong with that. A raise from the CO doesn't look like a steal as much as a btn raise would look like. I think you show strength here and see some folds. Had you played it like that he might have raised your cbet with the flush draw/ace high and you could get it all in and maybe fold his flush draw and if he calls, whatever that's life.

Then you say you call the flop bet looking to see a cheap turn to make a monster hand thinking he'll pay you off. Well how often does AA KK QQ pay off in a 4 way limped pot with a huge draw being made on the turn?

I'm trying to figure out if I would call this shuv or not and I have to say yes. I'm just having a tough time wrapping my head around a situation where I put myself in this terrible spot. I see him shuving nothing but a flush here and there are so many possibilities for you to be up against a smaller flush. Sets and two pairs call your river bet. Also a smaller flush could put you on two pair or set that might pay off his small flush.

If you were worried about him then I don't think he's stupid enough to raise a set or two pair or make a bluff in a 3 way flush draw board with somebody betting so aggressive after the turn card came.
7/9/10 4:05 PM
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andre
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Edited: 07/09/10 4:47 PM
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"For example when you say you resist the urge to raise due to a limper from UTG. I'm thinking you're worried he is trapping with a big hand, then why are you even getting involved with KJ? What do you do when he bets into a K high flop and barrels the turn and river giving you perfect odds to call?"

I would never play out a hand with top pair when there is a UTG limper. I think the hand is a good one for limping from position, which I did, but Im looking for straight and flush type flops, which is exactly what I got, not K or J high.

"If you're scared of a 4bet then fold to the 4bet, nothing wrong with that. A raise from the CO doesn't look like a steal as much as a btn raise would look like. I think you show strength here and see some folds."

I dont get the benefit of getting some folds preflop when Im playing a drawing hand. I want more people in the pot, although granted I didnt like seeing the suited ace remain. Had there been 4 hearts by the river, I could have easily laid it down, or had the board paired, but I dont see why I want to have people fold, and risk having to fold to a 3-bet, when the only way I'm playing past the flop is if I am drawing to a the second high flush or a straight.

"Then you say you call the flop bet looking to see a cheap turn to make a monster hand thinking he'll pay you off. Well how often does AA KK QQ pay off in a 4 way limped pot with a huge draw being made on the turn?"

UTG is not the only player in the hand. There is a straight draw out there that others might be chasing, a flush draw that someone might be chasing with suited connectors, and if someone has an overpair or flopped a set, why would I want them to fold at this point? I dont see the benefit in reraising, and Im certainly not folding with that kind of draw.

"If you were worried about him then I don't think he's stupid enough to raise a set or two pair or make a bluff in a 3 way flush draw board with somebody betting so aggressive after the turn card came."

I definitely put him on the flush, but obviously a lower one. I thought the Queen high flush was the most likely since he called my $100 and my thinking was that he would either call it with the nut flush draw, two pair, or at least the Q-high flush draw so he has some showdown and redraw value if he misses his flush. Also, from the button I thought he was the type of player to raise from the button with a suited ace, despite the UTG limper, because he was not only the big stack, but he was in position and seemed to like to play big pots with drawing hands.
7/10/10 4:11 AM
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Ze Dano
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andre - O.k., Im at the $200 table ($3/$5 blinds). I'm dealt Kh Jh in the cut off.

The flop comes Th-3h-Qd. I've got a flush draw and a gutshot straight.



You had a flush draw and an open-ended straight IMO
7/10/10 1:19 PM
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andre
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Doh...I meant open ended...arghh...
7/11/10 4:43 AM
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billid
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Edited: 07/11/10 4:46 AM
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It sounds like you do a lot of calling with full intentions on just giving up on the flop unless you hit big. I'm not sure if this is a great way to look at things.

Having the attitude preflop that you'd prefer more people in the pot than less is going to hurt you. Seeing as everybody was just limping, it wouldn't take much of a raise to fold them.. unless of course you're dealing with complete donkeys who never raise and only call 100% of hands.

See, you kind of contradict yourself again by saying you wanted a lot of people in the hand because you had a big drawing hand. IMO KJs is not a drawing hand until you saw the flop and my biggest concern is your choice of play preflop. KJs with a bunch of limpers plays quite well from the CO by raising... Who has you beat? I'm sure AA KK AK KQ are raising preflop and if they are trapping with AA KK AK you'll see a 4bet, unless they are not doing any of this? But you said you were worried about a 3bet from UTG.

Maybe I'm just not used to live poker and limping from UTG is seen as a strong play?
7/11/10 11:10 AM
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VectorWega
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Limping can be an effective strategy against bad players, particularly if there are already multiple bad players in the pot and particularly if they all call raises.  However, in most situations you would want to raise here to give yourself position, isolate, and to possibly see a turn cheaply (if you flop a weak draw). The UTG limp doesn't seem that powerful to me.  Seems like a dumb move with a good hand especially if other players at the table often limp. 

A bad player would re-raise there with a small flush or possibly worse making this call pretty standard I think.  I probably would have raised the flop, which probably wouldn't have changed how this particular hand played out (possibly could have squeezed ah5h out) but wouldn't have made it so obvious that you were just on a draw (plus, makes it more difficult to push you out on turn if you miss, which they generally can do if you flat call the flop)
7/11/10 1:29 PM
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andre
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"It sounds like you do a lot of calling with full intentions on just giving up on the flop unless you hit big. I'm not sure if this is a great way to look at things."

Im not sure how one hand implies that I do a LOT of calling. I think I limp when appropriate and raise when appropriate, and it is based on a many factors like the strength of my hand, my position, the tendencies of the other players, and the size of my stack.

"Having the attitude preflop that you'd prefer more people in the pot than less is going to hurt you. Seeing as everybody was just limping, it wouldn't take much of a raise to fold them.. unless of course you're dealing with complete donkeys who never raise and only call 100% of hands."

It depends on what you're holding. If I have suited connectors, I want more people in the pot. If I have JJ, I want one person or to take it down preflop. I'm sure you understand that you arent always trying to play hands heads up, and in fact you wouldnt play many, many hands if you knew you were going to play them against only one or two people.

"See, you kind of contradict yourself again by saying you wanted a lot of people in the hand because you had a big drawing hand. IMO KJs is not a drawing hand until you saw the flop and my biggest concern is your choice of play preflop. KJs with a bunch of limpers plays quite well from the CO by raising... Who has you beat? I'm sure AA KK AK KQ are raising preflop and if they are trapping with AA KK AK you'll see a 4bet, unless they are not doing any of this? But you said you were worried about a 3bet from UTG."

Huh? Do you realize how bad K-J is as a hand? I only played it because it was suited and I thought I could see a flop for cheap. I ended up with practically a dream flop, but I was prepared to lay it down under almost any other flop, including J or K high. K-J is a dog against ANY pair, and when its suited its only a slight favorite against some underpairs. It's also beaten by ANY hand with an ace and KQ. KJ is a horrible hand.

"Maybe I'm just not used to live poker and limping from UTG is seen as a strong play?"

It depends on the player, but playing out of position generally signifies a strong hand, and limping with the intention of raising is pretty common from UTG. That isnt always the case, of course. Someone could be limping with a drawing hand and hoping for everyone else to limp, or he may want to represent a strong hand for the purpose of 3-betting light. Either way, K-J isnt the hand I want to play against that kind of action, imo.
7/11/10 1:31 PM
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andre
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"I probably would have raised the flop, which probably wouldn't have changed how this particular hand played out (possibly could have squeezed ah5h out) but wouldn't have made it so obvious that you were just on a draw (plus, makes it more difficult to push you out on turn if you miss, which they generally can do if you flat call the flop)"

This is great advice. Thanks!

"However, in most situations you would want to raise here to give yourself position, isolate, and to possibly see a turn cheaply (if you flop a weak draw)."

Do you agree with me, though, that K-Js isnt the hand you'd want to isolate preflop with?
7/11/10 2:27 PM
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VectorWega
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 If I'm in position, I generally try to isolate with any hand that I play.  It doesn't matter as much what you have as it does what your opponent has and how strong his hand becomes after the flop.  There are few instances where I don't like to raise with position.  One of those would be if I expect Donkey A, Donkey B, and Donkey C to all call the raise and see a flop that will surely hit one of them.

That being said, I mainly play online and have never played $3/$5 and have no clue what level of play that equates to online.
7/11/10 6:16 PM
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wreckker
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 cant ,muck that for 200 more 99% of the time.




7/13/10 1:06 PM
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JCT
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andre - I have $200 left and the pot contains $450.


Actually, doesn't the pot contain 1050? On the turn there was 150, you bet 100 and got 2 callers. That's already 450. Then you bet 200, and he effectively raises to 400, that's 600 more in the pot when you have to call 200. Obviously, there is no way to fold that without some superhuman read.

I don't have a problem with limping KJs when there are already 2 limpers. I do think you should raise the flop though. You asked why you would want someone with an over pair or set to fold. The answer is because they have a lot of equity in the pot and you want them to give it up, though there's no way a set is folding. Also, by raising, you could be giving yourself more outs, for example if the A5h guy folded.
7/16/10 6:44 PM
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PR
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jfc no you cant
7/16/10 6:45 PM
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PR
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Shoving the flop is way more profitable than calling.
7/19/10 7:36 AM
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David@AccutestMi
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 Some variables you use to determine hand play are not needed. This is very common but it develops into a problem later on when playing for high dollar amounts.

"Streaks" "Hot Streaks" "Heaters" are all nonsense and should have ZERO impact on how you play. Because someone is doing well has nothing to do with the future hands that come out. The cards that come out will come out that way regardless of who sits in that seat. The person is just being dealt better cards on those particular hands that he wins. That's it. Trying to consider a heater will place a seed in your head thinking your hand (if semi decent) won't be good enough to play and you mentally allow him to win before ever playing the hand.

"Suited" should not effect your play as much as you allow it too. The golden rule is "If it's not a hand you would play unsuited, then don't play it suited.".  Most of us would play KJ so that shouldn't change but "suits" only matter after the flop. Pre-flop suits are the biggest mind fuck there is. Imagine that cards have no suit prior to the flop. AK suited and AK unsuited have the exact same weight preflop. Yes, you have more option post flop with a suited hand but if you are holding diamonds and the flop is spades, your suited hand is as worthless as the unsuited hand. Infact you might actually be better off with the unsuited hand for a runner runner runner. 

As far as your hand goes I have absolutely no clue as to what your "friend" is saying. How is that an easy lay down? There is 1 card in the entire deck at that point that can beat your hand. Now that one card also needs to be coupled with another card of the same suit, and that suit must be the same as what the board allows for a flush. 98% of the time you win. There was nothing wrong with your play at all. Sometimes its that 2% that fucks us. Happens all the time. Don't dwell on it. Because the other 98% of the time you will be raking in the pot, not the other way around.




"The only math I need to know is that there are 52 cards in the deck"
- me
7/20/10 9:54 PM
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PR
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I agree with Dave's paragraph re: streaks.

I disagree with his paragraph on suited cards. It does make a substantial difference in no limit hold em. See: reverse implied odds.

I agree with his last paragraph.
7/20/10 11:48 PM
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andre
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I should elaborate because I get that there is no logical basis for "streaks", but I know the games at the $200 tables at Hollywood Park, and I know the player in question and for him to have a stack like that means that he is sucking out on people. Not in the hand in question, per say, but the players at those tables are, for the most part, tough to felt and he had obviously run through everyone because he was by the far the big stack.

Now, I know that it doesnt have bearing on the hand in question, but I consider that a factor when Im playing live. I know that most people who "run hot" like that are willing to make plays with second or third best hands because they are feeling invulnerable. They start raising, shoving, and even calling light because they believe they can do no wrong.

I dont know how much of a factor it was in my decision, but it was something I took note of.
7/21/10 7:27 AM
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David@AccutestMi
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PR - I agree with Dave's paragraph re: streaks.

I disagree with his paragraph on suited cards. It does make a substantial difference in no limit hold em. See: reverse implied odds.

I agree with his last paragraph.

 I'm not saying suited cards aren't worthy, i'm just saying I am not from the group that places added value pre-flop on them. Maybe I didn't explain my point well enough. I won't play a 9-2 suited like anything other than a 9-2 which means I will fold it(unless im bored, cheap flop, or to steal). I won't play 9-2 like it's special because its really not. Playing shitty hands just because they are suited will lose you alot of cash. You might win the odd hand or two but you have to factor in other people with suited cards that are better than yours.

If I have AK suited preflop I still will bet strong but if I feel that the other person is holding AA or KK there is no point in me over betting my hand due to it being suited. I will still lose the majority of the time and money. The additional odds one gets with suited cards is only relevant post flop. You can't make a flush without three other cards. Therefore me trying to bet on the fact I think my AK will win is not the only odds im betting on. I am also betting that at least 3 more cards of the same suit will be dealt out of 8 cards drawn and won't be of those 8 the 3 burn cards. 

I can only state from personal experience. I'm not a pro at playing poker.
7/21/10 10:21 AM
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andre
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David, I think it's a mistake to have a blanket rule like what you've described. Suited cards generally improve your odds by 3% over unsuited, but their value skyrockets when there's someone, or a situation, at the table that will pay you off in a big way (implied odds).

Plus there are some hands, like A-J, that I'm more likely to play when its suited than when its not. K-J is another one.
7/22/10 10:01 PM
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VectorWega
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I'm all about the suited cards.  My opponents never know what I have except that I probably have two suited cards.  If there are 3 community cards of the same suit, my opponents have a lot to fear..as they should if there are two dueces, 3s, 4,s 5s, or any other low cards on the flop.

That being said, I'll play the 2-6 offsuit too, so maybe suits aren't that important.
7/23/10 1:30 AM
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PR
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olol Vega

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