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Judo/Sambo UnderGround >> Kuzushi and set ups


7/14/10 4:53 PM
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JerseyJoeJitsu
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 So I've been doing judo about once a week for about 2 months to supplement my bjj and have been having the most trouble with closing the distance and getting inside. Whenever I attempt a throw I feel like I am too far away and can't take away the other guy's balance. 

Can anyone recommend a good video on youtube/elsewhere for any tips that they'd recommend?

Thanks.

7/14/10 8:09 PM
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khd29
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uchikomi and combinations helped me. takes time, mang.
"attacking judo"?



7/15/10 9:11 AM
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judoblackbelt
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Step 1) Before you attempt a throw you basically have to more your opponent either sideways, backwards, forward or in a circle. It is hard to throw someone who is not moving. So how are you creating this movement? This is called setting up your throw. There are specific movements/setups for all the throws. Step 2)How is your opponent reacting to this movement you are trying to create? Example- You are trying to move your opponent backwards for an osoto attempt, opponent stiffarms you and pushing back then you would step to the side and move the opponent in a circle with the collar hand, block the ankle, push up on the elbow(of the stiffarm) and counter with saesae Tsurikomi ashi. A drill I have seen at the OTC is where they do practice throws on a crash pad moving forwards, sidewards(both sides) and backwards. This is why judo is so much more difficult to learn vs BJJ. The dynamics of judo are off the charts.
7/15/10 9:48 AM
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JerseyJoeJitsu
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I've been going for osoto gari and seio nage mostly. I occasionally go for harai goshi but I never can close the distance. 
7/15/10 5:04 PM
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Hunter V
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JerseyJoeJitsu - I've been going for osoto gari and seio nage mostly. I occasionally go for harai goshi but I never can close the distance. 


gotta work on your grip fighting then. Also, I personally love the over the shoulder grip for harai myself.
7/15/10 5:11 PM
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JoshuaResnick
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honestly, you are so new at judo that answering these questions would be an act of insantiy. why dont they work? honestly, becuase right now you still stink.

judo is a slow process. give it time. nothing else is going to matter one bit for quite awhile. the issue isnt the throws, it isnt the other person, it is 100% you. until you have been doing judo long enough for things to make sense to you then you are going to feel like you've been a monkey riding a football.

and, for the record, i completely disageree with JBB above that specific throws have specific movements attached to them. it is a total lie. any throw can be put together with any movement and any grip. the issue is how good you are at them, not anything else.
7/15/10 7:36 PM
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judoblackbelt
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Josh, why is your "narative" so negative and accuse me of lieing when the tecknique set up I describe was taught by sensei's who have are 5 Dan and above? Your comments always have a destructive nature to them. You look for the fault and not the good in what the question is and responses are. Words like stink, insanity, monkey have no relavance to the question. Do any of your responses actually try and help?
7/15/10 11:32 PM
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Roly_Poly_Puppy
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Edited: 07/16/10 2:41 AM
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.
7/16/10 9:50 AM
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JerseyJoeJitsu
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 I agree with JBB, this isn't the first time I've come on here to see you berating people for asking questions. 

We get it, you're a good competitor and know a lot of shit. But how about you spread some of your knowledge. Are you telling me there's not one sliver of advice you could give in this situation? You're making it sound as if I'm better off learning by just standing in a standard grip and getting thrown. 

Act of insanity? Honestly, that's the most fucking retarded thing I've ever heard. I've trained with a lot of great instructors, and what makes them great is that they see the question behind the question. How is it inanity? You've obviously instructed, you've never run into a problem with a low level student doing the same things wrong in the throws I listed as other students? I'm sure there's a few things that students continually get wrong as you start that needs to be correct. You couldn't list some of those? 
7/16/10 10:28 AM
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JerseyJoeJitsu
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allcloser - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcmG3osEI84&NR=1

Watch at around 1:00 how the guy in front moves his right arm to ease his entry to seoi nage. Remember that this is only one of the many factors involved, though.

Ah I like this. I'll give that a try. 
 
7/16/10 12:48 PM
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JoshuaResnick
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JBB... you said "There are specific movements/setups for all the throws." and this is outright wrong. every single throw can be done from every possible movement pattern and can be set-up with anything people so choose. telling somebody that there are specific movements and specific set-ups that need to be done for throws to work is an outright lie. i don't give a darn if you were taught this by people who claim to be judan and kudan level. for all i know your coaches bought their ranks via the Phil Porter fiasco. Rank means nothing at all to me. the way people are taught means a lot to me.

JJJ... it is an act of insanity. what have you told me? that you feel like you are not getting "close enough." that is about as broad as the side of a barn. not necessarily your fault-- but it is not information i can do anything with. it is an act of insantiy for me to try and help you because the odds of it working are about 1 in 4000 in considering all of the possible vairables of what might actually be going on and how much judo you actually do.

if i could feel what you are doing, perhaps see it on video then maybe i'd stand a chance to help. but literally i could tell you to do something that can get you, or somebody else hurt. that wouldnt be good either. Read what AC wrote in his reply and maybe things will make some sense.

You said you "trained" with great instructors. awesome! but you are not training with anybody here. so how can we help you when we literally do not know you at all?

i just don't know what you want us to do to help you...
7/16/10 5:46 PM
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LetsTalkItOut
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allcloser - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcmG3osEI84&NR=1

Watch at around 1:00 how the guy in front moves his right arm to ease his entry to seoi nage. Remember that this is only one of the many factors involved, though.


Thank you for that link, very helpful and very good quality.
7/16/10 7:59 PM
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Chocolate Shatner
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All, while Josh can be a bit condescending, and can come off as a jerk at times, in this instance his criticism is 100% correct.

Every throw can be set up from numerous, almost infinite, angles. While some movement patterns tend to favor one set up over others, it doesn't mean that you can't use them at times.

For example, just look at the Judo Masterclass series books. There are whole books devoted to one throw. The Neil Adams Tai Otoshi book is over 60 pages of just different setups, grips, and movement patterns to do the one throw. And even Adams states there are numerous other variations that he doesn't include.

JBB, I really don't care what your senseis who are above 5th dan may have told you. As Josh said, and as I have argued with Josh on numerous other threads, a rank means nothing, at some point.

It is a problem of modern judo, and most modern martial arts. Students are so hidebound by the traditions, and so steeped in the idea of never questioning their teacher, that they quickly have a narrowing of their learning. The student, who later on is now a teacher in his own right, passes down the erroneous teaching, because they only follow what their teacher told them.
7/17/10 1:09 PM
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judoblackbelt
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Jersey Joe, email me at judoblackbelt@wowway.com and I will be more than willing to give specific recommendations for closing the distance on osoto and seionage. You might need some ashiwaza setups, circling to the collar hand side, etc. One current world class player and Champion who is good at Osoto is Teddy Riner. Watch some of his matches. Usually those who are good at Osoto take high collar grips. Seionage is more common in that I see it done at all weight classes up thru 100K usually from the collar grip side. World class players can hit it from moving in. Local players are best at it when the opponent is followiing.
7/19/10 3:36 AM
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JoshuaResnick
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A huge reason why Riner is successful is his massive size and strength. To make a recommendation to somebody to observe the way somebody like Riner does a throw proved everything I said above. I am not saying you don't know anything, I am saying that you don't have sufficient information to help JJ out, not even remotely close.

Beyond that, JJ has a judo coach who is ultimately responsible for the people in his dojo. JJ practices Judo less than 4 times a month, for a few months (not even close to a full year) and here you are dolling out your recommendations to him as if you are qualified. I am sorry, but I disagree heavily.

Hell, I know lots of people on this site have vast amounts more knowledge and experience in Judo than you do, and even your instructors most likely, and they wouldn't be so eager to do what you are so willing to attempt.

Helping people out is one thing. Tell people to pick up a Masterclass series book if he really wants to see the nuances of a technique. Those are, by far, the best I have seen to date on actually teaching technique. I learned one of my favorite throws (yokotomenage) and one of the finishes to the dimelo I used (side-sweeping morote gari) directly from those texts.

yet you can be very, very sure that I had already been doing a lot more Judo that 1x a week for less than half a year. don't you get it? He should be asking his coach, he is so new and so rough around the edges that anything we try to expose him to could go horribly wrong.

irresponsible. period.
7/19/10 9:41 AM
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judoblackbelt
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Josh, You don't like my advice, I guess that's ok and let Jersey Joe take what he thinks is valuable from the comments. But I am glad I am limited to conversation on this forum.
7/19/10 9:58 AM
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Chocolate Shatner
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Josh, I am glad someone else noted that Riner's success has a great deal to do with his size and strength. I fight a guy similar in nature to Riner in my gym, he's a good 4 inches taller, and 20 kilos heavier. Of course, his favorite technique is uchimata, much like Riner's is. Why? It does tend to favor larger, taller players with long legs.

7/20/10 2:20 AM
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JoshuaResnick
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CS.. uchimata isnt an issue of height or size. shorter people throw taller people with it all the time. body size doesnt dictate the throws people use, the way their body moves and feels comfortable does.

yamashita was a small heavyweight and used osoto of all throws...

ive been tossed by 100kg and +100kg players who used seionage...

riner's judo isnt necessarily bad, it is just bad for others to mimic. shy of somebody being about 6'5 and 300lbs of pure brick sh@thouse power and athleticism then the way Riner does the throw is simply not going to help much.

likewise, unless you are lightning fast, and i mean lightning fast, the way Won Hee Lee did his tiotoshi is not going to help anybody else perfect theirs either.

these two people are such extreme cases of the rarest of the rare in terms of athletics that trying to mimic them as a way of improving one's own skill is truly impossible, if not harmful.

but, unless you really sit down and think about it and study this stuff you are not going to realize it and you'll think that "oh, well, Riner/Lee does it that way so I am going to see if I can too..." and all the while you are just shooting yoruself in the foot.
7/20/10 6:58 AM
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Chocolate Shatner
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Josh, while I agree with you that anyone of any body type can do most of the throws, I do think that certain aspects of certain throws favor certain body types.

For example, having a very tall hip (long legs) can really help a uchimata heavy player.

Similarly, I've noticed that guys built like Yamashita here in Japan have favored many of the same throws he did. Why? Because they are short and have a lower center of gravity, they can use the hopping version of osoto that he liked to basically crunch the guy down.

In a similar vein, guys like me who are back strong but not so quick, I tend to favor the wrestling/Russian style throws, where I can use the pull I can develop from my back in order to post up and throw a guy. It's why I've come to favor counter throws like ura nage, and the yoko sutemi waza.

I also agree, in that copying many of the Olympic athlete level judoka and their setups is folly at a low level. Honestly, I can be impressed by the beautiful technique of a Neil Adams or Ryoko Tani tai otoshi, or the speed and flexibility of Koga, but I shouldn't be attempting to copy them, and I've been in judo for going on 10 years now.
7/21/10 2:09 AM
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JoshuaResnick
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CS... I don't necessarily agree with your reasoning, but it is very well thought out and i will keep it close to the front of my brain over the next few days and mull it over.

thanks for the conversation. =)

7/23/10 11:45 AM
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JudOWNED
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Hey JJJ, it's cool for people on here to give you some things to think about, technique-wise. But as a low-level hobbyist myself, I'll tell you the answer to all such questions is usually just, "train more" or "train longer". I know for myself that's true, even when I'm not always able to follow that advice.
7/23/10 5:09 PM
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JoshuaResnick
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JO.... thanks for adding that. it is 100% true.
7/26/10 2:48 AM
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Bently
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JerseyJoeJitsu -  So I've been doing judo about once a week for about 2 months to supplement my bjj and have been having the most trouble with closing the distance and getting inside. Whenever I attempt a throw I feel like I am too far away and can't take away the other guy's balance. 

Can anyone recommend a good video on youtube/elsewhere for any tips that they'd recommend?

Thanks.
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In general, beginners stiff arm each other. Thus it's likely you are doing the same, and so cannot get close enough to uke.

You are such a beginner, you first gotta ask "what throw can I do correctly on a moving uke?" In my experience, the answer is "none". If you can't do Osoto Gari reasonably well in that situation, chances of doing it a spazzy nube who is all stiff, or, a more experienced judoka who can see you coming from a mile away, is slim to none.

So it's no surprise you are having the problem(s) you describe, and it's totally normal.

Focus more on learning to do the throws correctly, then slowly up the resistance you get from your training partner.

Judo isn't something you do as a beginner to "supplement" another art. It takes focused study to make it of any practical use.

Ben
7/27/10 12:58 PM
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nowaydo
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"...Judo isn't something you do as a beginner to "supplement" another art. It takes focused study to make it of any practical use..."
It's taken me years to realize this!

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