UnderGround Forums
 

JKD UnderGround >> Can TMA make your clinch game better?

| Share | Email | Subscribe | Check IPs

7/15/10 5:46 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
The Gimp
18 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 10/3/04
Posts: 3243
 
If you have a decent greco clinch game (pummeling, armdrags etc) and your sparring partner also has a decent greco game, would it make a difference if you also had a decent wing chun background?

If you trained wing chun sticking hands in an alive way, would they add to your game? would they be effective?

what about tai chi clinch? (seriously - tai chi is a grappling art at heart)
7/16/10 7:08 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
TheSource
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 7/14/10
Posts: 2
I think that push hands is a great drill as long as you understand how it aids in your takedowns and takedown defense. While I have not formally studied push hands, i know several practitioners that do and have recently started doing BJJ in conjunction as they feel the two go hand in hand. I think push hands is an isolation drill to help you feel your opponents movement, center of balance etc.

However, it is difficult to find a decent school in america that will teach you push hands that can be used practically
Here are two vids that compares push hands in china vs america. I love the takedown at 1:15 on the second vid.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNAV_AurtKI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8zeqVJKg55g&feature=related
7/17/10 10:10 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
jrrrrr
547 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 406
nice
7/18/10 1:34 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Jeff_H
12 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 453
i started my martial arts training in kung fu and tai chi in san diego in 1990. the school i trained at did a lot of push hands and we used to compete in push hands tournaments throughout california.

i personally liked it and still use some of the technique while training in the clinch and going from stand-up to clinch and/or ground.

moving step push hands is a lot more applicable from a practicality standpoint but fixed step push hands allows you to develop good sensitivity and the ability to "read" your opponent's energy and react accordingly.

don't get me wrong, i think wrestling is better for takedowns but tai chi does have its merits and has some use from a tma perspective imo.
7/18/10 6:28 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
cprevost
3 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 12/28/03
Posts: 494
So the moral of the story is that good wing chun looks like bad boxing and good tai chi looks like bad wrestling.... I'd rather cut to the chase and become a mediocre boxer and wrestler then.
7/19/10 1:48 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
The Gimp
18 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 10/3/04
Posts: 3254
Cprevost,

yeah, but what I'm saying is that if you already have decent boxing and wrestling, maybe adding some esoteric techniques - and training them in the same alive way - will add to your overall game.

7/19/10 3:09 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
John Frankl
44 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 1026
The Gimp,

Of course, it could add to your overall game. The real question is would it add more or less than either devoting more time to boxing and wrestling, or engaging in some quality strength and conditioning work, etc.

We all have limited time (and money) so it is really about using our resources wisely, not about whether doing wing chun or tai chi might help a little.

The other thing I would add is that it is very difficult to do things outside their given contexts. IOW, will the person you go to for Wing Chun or Tai Chi teach you the parts you want/need, or will s/he want you to engage in it rather religiously, etc.?
7/22/10 1:53 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
phauna
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 8/1/03
Posts: 427
That Chinese pushing hands looks just like greco.
7/24/10 8:51 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
edg176
4 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 72
Tournament in the village that originated taiji:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8zeqVJKg55g&feature=related
7/26/10 11:46 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
The Gimp
18 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 10/3/04
Posts: 3257
Is this bullshit?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2Qvo_BUmNU

Ever had any experiences with fa jing?
7/26/10 11:26 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
edg176
4 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 07/26/10 11:30 PM
Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 73
The Gimp,
Looks like the guy has some skills, hard to tell without touching his hands. The stuff he's doing doesn't work as dramatically once the other person has developed skills of their own.

What do you mean by fajing? That's just a Mandarin word meaning "emit force." Different styles mean different things by it. <br /><br />I don't really think of that kind of training as esoteric techniques, but more as a different way to use the body.

John,
Actually I think you make a good point. Even though, from my perspective, taiji and other arts that get tagged with the "internal" label do offer benefits, it's all about what people want to do with their training. My experience has been that taij and xingyi do offer certain types of conditioning and body usage that I have not seen in, for example, judo or kickboxing. Obviously if someone wants to fight they still have to do activity specific drills, cardiovascular conditioning etc. I understand that the Chen village push hands competitors do their cardio and lift weights in addition to their technique training and the so-called internal training. I tend to think of the ''internal training'' as just one more piece of the overall puzzle, similar to how S&C is just one part of training for kickboxing/mma/judo.

As to the entire "if it's so awesome why aren't they in mma," I think there are a couple of answers. First of all, in China, taiji coaches can actually make money. They can teach at a provincial sports school or coach a regional team. Professional MMA is just taking off, while on the other hand, many provinces in China have a sports university or sports schools run by the state.

Second of all, from what I've seen, there isn't a clear pedagogy to apply the body skills developed in taiji in a striking environment. Some of the stuff they do seems to make people pretty square and flat footed, which is not bad in a grappling setting, but probably less desirable in a setting where people strike.

Now, China is a big country, and there may be people there doing it that I haven't seen and that no one knows about. Certainly the people who guard the Communist party leadership have historically had extensive traditional training, and the military/police in China often train in Chinese rules kickboxing, i.e. sanda. So it seems likely to me that there has been some crossover. We're unlikely to ever see these people demo on youtube, however.

I have heard of people teaching xingyi body skills applied in kickboxing, but even then, the training is in two tracks. One track is the traditional training, and the other is apparently pretty standard sanda. At some point the fighter is expected to figure out how to combine the two.
7/27/10 8:08 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
phauna
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 8/1/03
Posts: 444
The Gimp - Is this bullshit?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2Qvo_BUmNU

Ever had any experiences with fa jing?


That has got to be mostly bullshit. Especially the one hand things. It says on the youtube comments that the partners were keeping intentionally rigid. If that sort of thing could be translated to punching power then why not demonstrate it. If it's too deadly then just hit a punching bag or something.
7/27/10 7:06 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Demitrius Barbito
40 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 1156
That video of the guys flying back is so messed up.

Why do people want to trick other people and then take their money.

It's freakin predatory.
8/1/10 9:39 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
The Gimp
18 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 10/3/04
Posts: 3268
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIc5NIfrnJs

I'm not impressed with either gentlemen's pummeling skills but I am intrigued by how the smaller guy throws the bigger guy around.
8/1/10 9:39 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
The Gimp
18 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 10/3/04
Posts: 3269
FYI I believe the little guy is Chen Bing, the current head of Chen style (original) tai chi.
8/9/10 7:30 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Lord Kancho
22 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 7/3/08
Posts: 1898
According to the comments, the big guy is a tai chi student. I don't know what they're doing in an MMA ring.
1/8/11 3:34 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
K-Dub-"T"
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 39333
The Gimp - If you have a decent greco clinch game (pummeling, armdrags etc) and your sparring partner also has a decent greco game, would it make a difference if you also had a decent wing chun background?
Yes.

But not if you "train sticky hands in an alive way" cos that only makes you good at.... "sticky hands in an alive way".

However if you transfer postural control from wing chun to postural control in the clinch as well as disengagement and engagement sensitivity for the clinch, then unequivically, yes!

 
2/10/11 10:13 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
nowaydo
138 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 2/28/06
Posts: 2900
cprevost - So the moral of the story is that good wing chun looks like bad boxing and good tai chi looks like bad wrestling.... I'd rather cut to the chase and become a mediocre boxer and wrestler then.


Deep!

| Share | Email | Subscribe | Check IPs

Reply Post

You must log in to post a reply. Click here to login.