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UnderGround Forums >> Kang-Filho decision bolsters argument for PRIDE


7/19/10 3:54 PM
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Mike Russell
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 judging criteria over boxing's 10-point must system.


Kang vs. Filho Decision Further Supports the Argument for PRIDE-Style Scoring


(Is the 10-point must system suitable for use in MMA?)

After re-watching the Impact FC bout between Denis Kang and Paulo Filho that ended in a split draw – the second notable MMA bout to do so in a month with the other being the WEC 49 bout between Jamie Varner and Kamal Shalorus – I couldn’t help but wonder why MMA continues to rely on a scoring system created and tailored for boxing judging.

When the majority of mixed martial arts organizations adopted the Unified Rules in 2000, along with the governing principles, each organization adopted the system known as the 10-point must system.

Under the guidelines of the 10-point must system, judges score each frame based on their accumulative points tally for the round. The winner of each round receives a score between seven and 10 depending on who won the round. If a round is deemed a tie, both combatants are assessed 10 points each by the judge who perceived the frame to be even. The problem with the system is, when used to score a three-round MMA bout, the likelihood of a fight ending in a draw is exponentially higher than in a 10-round boxing match.

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7/19/10 4:02 PM
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Kai Tremeche
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I'm going to be the contrarian here with this, but I would say that no matter what the system, judges will get it wrong.

I saw enough fucked up decisions in PRIDE to fill a bus.
7/19/10 4:02 PM
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EckY
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 10 point must does not work for 3 round MMA fights, never has and never will.

Of course the idiots in charge of the US ACs will never change things as that would be like accepting they adopted a flawed system, they would rather pretend the system is fine and keep it flawed than admit it was wrong and try to change it, sad state of affairs.
7/19/10 4:04 PM
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EckY
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Kai Tremeche - I'm going to be the contrarian here with this, but I would say that no matter what the system, judges will get it wrong.

I saw enough fucked up decisions in PRIDE to fill a bus.

 There wasnt nearly as many decisions in PRIDE that ahd people up in arms as there ae in US MMA, Ricco-Nog gets brought up but otuside of that they were very few and far between.  Nowadays there is at least one horrible decision per event under the unified rules.
7/19/10 4:05 PM
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Mike Russell
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Screwed up PRIDE decisions had more to do with the Yakuza betting lines than human error IMO.
7/19/10 4:08 PM
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EckY
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 Can you name some, the only decisions anyone complained about in PRIDE were razor thin could go either way type deals.
7/19/10 4:12 PM
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LambertCFMMA
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I prefer fights being judged as a whole over round by round but as long as fights are broken up into an odd amount of rounds, I'm sure stupid judges will look at things round by round and deciding the winner that way.

Why not adopt the "must decision" system Sengoku uses? It's still round by round scoring but it would at least eliminate draws.
7/19/10 4:13 PM
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Tomato Can
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The 10-point system is fine, they just need to be more liberal with 10-8 rounds. A fight ending in a draw is not necessarily a bad thing.

PRIDE had plenty of controversial decisions, the idea that it was some bastion of honest, competent judging is 100% revisionist history.
7/19/10 4:38 PM
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EckY
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 Tomato Can name some that were really bad.
7/19/10 4:49 PM
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Vasechkin
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Nog Vs Ricko was a horrible decision that can not be justified under any rules.

7/19/10 4:49 PM
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Tomato Can
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EckY -  Tomato Can name some that were really bad.


These were all pretty controversial:

Nog vs. Ricco
Hendo vs. Kondo
Hendo vs. Busta II
Ninja vs. Rampage
Wand vs. Hunt
Wand vs. Arona II

I agreed with a few of these but they all generated controversy.
7/19/10 4:52 PM
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Kai Tremeche
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Tomato Can - 
EckY -  Tomato Can name some that were really bad.


These were all pretty controversial:

Nog vs. Ricco
Hendo vs. Kondo
Hendo vs. Busta II
Ninja vs. Rampage
Wand vs. Hunt
Wand vs. Arona II

I agreed with a few of these but they all generated controversy.


Sakuraba x Mezger.

Any of Mezger, Arona or Henderson fights.
7/19/10 5:02 PM
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Xuh
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I'm not sure why Filho vs. Kang is a particularly good fight to bolster the 'PRIDE judging' argument, a draw was an OK result in that fight.
There are lots of other figths which bloster the PRIDE judging view better...
7/19/10 5:06 PM
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MCchoke
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Edited: 07/19/10 5:09 PM
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also i remember thinking hendo got a gift vs ninja but it was a long time ago i may be wrong
7/19/10 5:07 PM
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Mike Russell
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That's why it says "further bolsters," meaning adds to the case.
7/19/10 5:08 PM
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Tomato Can
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Yes, Mezger/Arona, Hendo/Arona and Hendo/Ninja were other examples.

Nakamura's wins against Kondo and Igor Vovchanchyn were very debatable as well.
7/19/10 5:19 PM
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piratepirate
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 The 10 point must system is NOT a problem.
Giving the winner of a round 10 points is a GREAT idea, it works.
The problem is WHAT ACTIONS you give the points for.
Not the ten points.

People are focusing on the wrong problem.
Ok, change it to PRIDE judging, then still put the same judges in there,
you're going to get worse decisions than you are now.
We need to educate, and change our judging criteria, NOT the 10 point must.

7/19/10 5:25 PM
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EckY
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Edited: 07/19/10 5:26 PM
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Tomato Can - 
EckY -  Tomato Can name some that were really bad.


These were all pretty controversial:

Nog vs. Ricco
Hendo vs. Kondo
Hendo vs. Busta II
Ninja vs. Rampage
Wand vs. Hunt
Wand vs. Arona II

I agreed with a few of these but they all generated controversy.
All of those were razor thin decisions, the only one that people really moaned about was Ricco/Nog.  The worst of the lot imo is probably Rampage/Ninja, the rest I didnt really have a problem with and agreed with most of them.

There have been more, bad decisions in UFC in the past year alone.
  
7/19/10 5:25 PM
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Tomato Can
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The criteria are fine. The problem is this:

I take a dude down. Throw small punches and elbows in guard. Get stood up. Get another takedown. More small shots in guard. Do a bit of damage but nothing serious. Clear 10-9 round for me.

I take a dude down. I hit him with major shots on the ground, visibly hurting him at least 2 times. He wall walks back to his feet. We stand for a while, he lands some good jabs but I am clearly getting the better of it. Eventually, I drill him with a 1-2, knocking him back to the ground, and then I follow him down and land a few more solid punches before the bell. Somehow, under the current interpretation of the 10-point must system, this is also a 10-9 round.

These 2 situations need to be differentiated.
7/19/10 5:28 PM
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Tomato Can
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EckY - 
Tomato Can - 
EckY -  Tomato Can name some that were really bad.


These were all pretty controversial:

Nog vs. Ricco
Hendo vs. Kondo
Hendo vs. Busta II
Ninja vs. Rampage
Wand vs. Hunt
Wand vs. Arona II

I agreed with a few of these but they all generated controversy.
All of those were razor thin decisions, the only one that people really moaned about was Ricco/Nog.  The worst of the lot imo is probably Rampage/Ninja imo, the rest I didnt really have  aproblem with and agreed with most of them.

There have been more, bad decisions in UFC in the past year alone.
 


Most of those "bad decisions" in the UFC were probably very similar situations where the fight could have gone either way. Franklin/Wand is one example.

Also, consider that the UFC puts on like 200+ fights per year now. PRIDE probably put on about 400-500 in its entire existence.
7/19/10 5:29 PM
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Domingo
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piratepirate -  The 10 point must system is NOT a problem.
Giving the winner of a round 10 points is a GREAT idea, it works.
The problem is WHAT ACTIONS you give the points for.
Not the ten points.

People are focusing on the wrong problem.
Ok, change it to PRIDE judging, then still put the same judges in there,
you're going to get worse decisions than you are now.
We need to educate, and change our judging criteria, NOT the 10 point must.


I'm with ya. It's not necessarily the numbers...but how the points are given. Rounds should be able to be scored evenly. Why bother having the option to score 1-10 when it's impossible to get less than 7 without the fight being stopped or being DQ'd? Might as well make it a "4 point must" system if you're never going less than 7.

Honestly, it's tough to find the perfect system. There's always going to be subjectivity on whether defense or offense is more important...and when. Even with a new scoring system, the judges can just as easily slant a fight result depending on what they see as being more effective. Is is that guy landing weak ass punches on the mat or a guy going for a chain of 3 submissions that fail? Is a slam just a takedown or does it mean more? If I stop 4 takedowns and punish them but get caught on the 4th try - which is more important? Is a throw that does damage but leads to a scramble better than dragging someone to the mat and doing nothing?

Education on what's going on is the first step, but no matter what - we're not going to agree with everything.


  
7/19/10 5:30 PM
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EckY
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 I fully agree about the incompetence with regards to the scores used Tomato Can, it seems judges are scared to score anything but 10-9 unless one guy is almost beaten to death and they will give a 10-8.  The way it is now it seems impossible to score a 10-7 even though they exist as the fight technically should ahve been stopped by then with the way they hand out 10-8s.
 
7/19/10 5:30 PM
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ajsr
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 Fuck the ten point must system. It's not suitable for scoring three round MMA bouts and it just doesn't work.
7/19/10 5:31 PM
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piratepirate
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Domingo -
I'm with ya. It's not necessarily the numbers...but how the points are given. Rounds should be able to be scored evenly. Why bother having the option to score 1-10 when it's impossible to get less than 7 without the fight being stopped or being DQ'd? Might as well make it a "4 point must" system if you're never going less than 7.

Honestly, it's tough to find the perfect system. There's always going to be subjectivity on whether defense or offense is more important...and when. Even with a new scoring system, the judges can just as easily slant a fight result depending on what they see as being more effective. Is is that guy landing weak ass punches on the mat or a guy going for a chain of 3 submissions that fail?

Education on what's going on is the first step, but no matter what - we're not going to agree with everything.


 
Well said.
At the end of the day they're always going to be bad decisions,
no matter the judging system. If I am really that much better than you, I will finish you.

 
7/19/10 5:47 PM
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EckY
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 One of the best parts about PRIDE judging was the fact they used ex fighters and people that understand MMA. 

You will not find a better person to judge a fight than Matt Hume, I cannot understand why in the US they use guys that have never fought oir even been involved with MMA, they get some 60 year old boxing judge make him watch a few MMA fights and all of a sudden hes a qualified judge?????????

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