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Cigars, Beer & Poker Ground >> Hand from OG tournament


7/24/10 1:44 AM
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PR
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No Limit Holdem Tournament
5 Players
Hand Conversion Powered by http://weaktight.com/
$10+$1

Stacks:
UTG 1,585
CO 2,420
BTN 2,025
Hero 3,555
BB 915

Blinds: 25/50

Pre-Flop: (75, 5 players) Hero is SB 7s 7d
1 fold, CO raises to 150, 1 fold, Hero calls 125, 1 fold

Flop: 2s 4c 6d (350, 2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets 200, Hero calls 200

Turn: 9c (750, 2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets 450, Hero calls 450

River: Ac (1,650, 2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets 900,

Hero does what???
7/24/10 1:52 AM
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Zen
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You played it right IMO. Tough to call with that board. Flush draw and two overs by the river.
7/24/10 1:53 AM
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Zen
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You crushed my hopes and dreams with that flush. :( Flop the damn nuts while 2nd stack and it's all over.
7/24/10 3:21 AM
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PR
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I'd often fold the turn, because usually if a guy bets twice he'll have me beat, but I thought you were aggressive enough you might see that turn 9 and decide to fire another bullet. But once that ace comes, man there's not much I beat. If you had KQ, its really ballsy for you bet the flop turn and river.

Maybe I should have folded the turn, realizing you might bet the river.
7/24/10 3:45 AM
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andre
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PR, I know its not what you were asking, but why no reraise on the flop?
7/24/10 3:46 AM
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andre
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Sorry, I meant raise.
7/24/10 5:34 AM
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PR
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A few reasons, but the main concept is that a raise makes the hand into a "reverse implied odds" situation. That is, if I raise him on the flop I am basically making it real easy for him to make the correct play.

(an advanced concept is that I would be raising the very bottom of my "flop raising range" - that is of all the hands I choose to raise the flop with 77 is one of the worst)

So with a raise I allow him to reraise when he has me beat (ie. play a big pot when he has me beat) but also to fold his worse hands (like AK/AQ type hands).

(homework assignment: read up on the "fundamental theorem of poker: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_theorem_of_poker)

The next big factor which makes this situation bad for us is position. We dont have it. So he now also has an option to call us too, to trap if he wants.

(thought assignment here is to think about all the unknown cards that can hit on the turn, and how many make our life miserable and how many we'd like to see)

If we are in position a raise is better because if he calls, he'll often check the turn to us, and thus giving us an option of checking behind and seeing a free river. We dont have that out of position, if we raise the flop and he calls, then the turn comes and we have to decide what to do and then he gets to react to that.

But by just calling the flop, we keep his worse hands in the pot, and protect our very vulnerable, but probably good hand.

All that being said, if I decided Zen was a crazy aggro player, I might choose to decide to raise the flop because I've decided BEFORE I make that play that I will call his shove. That is, Im thinking a move ahead. I dont raise until I've decided what to do if he reraises all-in. Basically I'm deciding that I am going with this hand.

But in this case Zen seemed to playing well and wasnt going crazy going all-in all the time etc, so I didnt think there was value in stacking off with 77 on this flop.
7/24/10 5:50 AM
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PR
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I like tourneys with buddies because you can discuss hands you played against each other afterward, it can be a great learning experience, because you dont often get to swap notes with your opponents after.
7/24/10 11:40 AM
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andre
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TigerDriver - andre - Sorry, I meant raise.

I like the raise on the flop because generally it lets you know where you are at. I don't know how many times I've seen people who will stay in or bet out with Ace high on a board like that. If he calls a raise up to 700/800 on the flop, it will be easier for you to fold on the turn if he continues to bet.


I see PR's point totally, but this is my thinking exactly.

The problem I have with not raising the flop is that with every card over mine that hits the board I'm faced with the same out of position decision.

As far as the Fundamental Theorem, I get that we want to keep the worse hands in, but the problem is that in this case you have no information to go off because his preflop raise from the cutoff could have been simply an attempt to steal and his range could be pretty wide. His C-bet is automatic, so that still doesnt tell you anything, and everytime you check I think you put yourself in a spot where you still cant determine if he's just firing bullets or if he's hit the overcard that comes on the turn or the river. I think a raise separates the men from the boys and tells you whether or not you're done with the hand, and it would take a pretty gutsy or advanced player to keep 4-bet or keep firing bullets with air.

I mean this with all due respect, and for the sake of discussion, as I realize I am debating a hand with someone who is much, much better at the game.
7/24/10 2:43 PM
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PR
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"to see where you are at"

You guys have a valid point, it's just that we can generally achieve the same info using less chips.

As I said above if we raise the flop, we let him play pretty close to perfect right. He'll often shove with better hands and fold worse hands. Its pretty clearly defined. So you guys are right.

HOWEVER, I am suggesting we can achieve the same goal by calling.

This is because on the turn we check to him and he will have a choice to bet or check. Now if he has a big over pair like QQ, he likely will bet for value and to charge us to see the river. However if he has a hands like AK/AQ/AJ it is usually in his interests to check and try and hit a pair on the river.

Of course this is no perfect solution. But neither is raising the flop, because he could call our raise, and now we are in a tough spot.

Also preservation of chips is important. That extra 5-600 in chips is very important because it allows us more flexibility in later hands.
7/24/10 3:53 PM
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andre
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Gotcha...Thanks, PR. I appreciate the discussion.
7/25/10 4:17 PM
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andre
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I made a few bonehead plays last night, but I enjoyed playing with some OGers. Hope you make the next one, PR.
7/25/10 5:14 PM
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PR
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Looks like the discussion has died out... Zen what did you have?
7/25/10 9:31 PM
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JHR
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WTF ?? When did we have an OG tourney??

I made a damn thread about getting one going and I missed it?

crap!!
7/26/10 3:56 AM
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Zen
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kqc I'm not nearly as advanced as you so I can't get as theoritical. I felt like that was a good starting hand short handed.

When I whiffed the flop and you checked I figured my continuation bet was the only way to win.

When you called I was pretty sure I was done.

You checked the turn and I figured you had a medium pair or maybe a6c. You seemed pretty aggresive so I thought if you had either you would come over the top and I'd fold.

I thought once again my only way to win was to bet. So I fired again with 2 overs to the board and a flush draw. You called again and I was thinking shit.

I was kind of waiting for you to turn on the aggresion and I probably would've folded without much deliberation.

Given the way you had played up to that point I thought the passiveness was a little out of your regular routine. At any point in the hand, except the river I probably/ definitely fold to a reraise. Possibly would've called the turn with the draw cause I'm quite loose @ times.

In retrospect I should've bet less on the river.
7/26/10 10:30 AM
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andre
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Zen - kqc I'm not nearly as advanced as you so I can't get as theoritical. I felt like that was a good starting hand short handed.

When I whiffed the flop and you checked I figured my continuation bet was the only way to win.

When you called I was pretty sure I was done.

You checked the turn and I figured you had a medium pair or maybe a6c. You seemed pretty aggresive so I thought if you had either you would come over the top and I'd fold.

I thought once again my only way to win was to bet. So I fired again with 2 overs to the board and a flush draw. You called again and I was thinking shit.

I was kind of waiting for you to turn on the aggresion and I probably would've folded without much deliberation.

Given the way you had played up to that point I thought the passiveness was a little out of your regular routine. At any point in the hand, except the river I probably/ definitely fold to a reraise. Possibly would've called the turn with the draw cause I'm quite loose @ times.

In retrospect I should've bet less on the river.


I AM VINDICATED!!!!

(I'm teasing)

The club draw on the turn obviously gave a bit more confidence to the second bullet and the third bullet never would have come if the flush hadnt hit, so I can see how this hand would play out differently most other times.
8/2/10 11:49 AM
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joe canada
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Did you give any thought to betting out on the turn?

In that spot, in a cash game and deep enough, I will often make that move, as it smells like a set and puts him to the question relatively cheaply.

I smoothed him preflop out of position.
I check called his cont bet out of position. At this point, what can I have?
Now I bet out on the turn... Hmmmm....

If I have a set, straight or two pair and he comes over the top of me, it has to be for a significant amount, and I will jam. He's very unlikely to have two pair on that
board, so I may jam anyways with the 7s, depending on table images.

If I don't have the set etc, or if stack sizes or table images are such that I don't think he can fold an overpair, I will fold to the reraise.

But my bet out on the turn will likely be less than his second bullet would have been, therefore costing me less than did your calling his cont bet and guessing on the river.

I don't much like the call call fold in that spot.

My most likely line:

check call flop
bet turn
fold to reraise
8/2/10 7:08 PM
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PR
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I hate betting the turn, because it allows him to call and trap us. Also it stops him from bluffing. IMO there's more value to check to try and induce a turn bluff bet from AK/AQ type hands. Whats your plan then for the river?

This is because if we bet the turn, we make it easier for him to play perfectly against us - fold worse hands, but continue with better hands.
8/3/10 6:31 PM
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Cheeseburger Eddie
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 Haven't read any replies.

I like the call on the flop, he is betting there with a lot of things that didn't hit and can certainly be a cbet so his range is still wide open and you are ahead of that. 

I think that the turn is a good call, the nine was a safe card and doesn't hit a ton of what he could have, if you were good before you are probably still good. A raise on the flop or turn doesn't really achieve anything in my eyes.

Once the river hits I think a lot of what you were beating disappears and you have to fold. Either he hit his ace, got three streets of value from us (if we call) or ran a nice triple barrel (I think at this point is the smallest part of his range). Once he bets that river, the made hands that we beat earlier  on the first two streets he would just check back here. I think a raise shove might beat some parts of his range but I think that that is a pretty bad play in an sng. Conserve your chips in this spot and fold river.

It has been a long time since I have studied any poker so I hope I still am thinking about the game properly. Discussing theory was always my favorite part and I quit as soon as I started making money on poker because it felt like work, lol. 

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