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Judo/Sambo UnderGround >> ronda rousey mma debut


1/22/11 9:03 PM
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BJJWorkouts
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 Those other women are great within a BJJ context where weak takedowns, pulling guard and butt flopping is no big deal. Ronda has a well rounded game that transfer well into MMA. Watching people with weak takedowns in MMA is painful and it usually doesn't end well.


1/22/11 9:37 PM
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Missing Glove Tape
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^And re: the wrestling video, the fact that she seems to be doing the right things to make sure her judo/game translates well to mma = big trouble for anyone she faces.

I also see good things in her future in terms of being a/the face of women's mma that legitimizes it as a sport. I mean, I still don't like seeing women beat on each other, but at least Ronda is a face(me likes!) and a name that doesn't depend on sex or freakshow marketing to sell it. Instead she's a homegrown, all-american girl with legit skills and solid reputation worldwide(judo).

I wish her the best of luck.
1/22/11 10:20 PM
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judom
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I think wSara McMann or Randi Miller, the Olympic wrestlers, those would be much tougher matches than the BJJ players I mentioned. Those are just not as tough and are physically inferior by a long shot.
1/22/11 11:11 PM
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gbutts
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Missing Glove Tape - I think it's disrespectful to call Penny and Kyra amateurs considering their accomplishments in their sport. They're at the top of bjj heap, too, and they train/compete full-time just like other professionals. That said, there's really no comparing the talent pool/level of play to judo. Women's bjj/grappling hasn't been around nearly long enough nor does it draw from as large an athlete base, so it's not surprising that Ronda wrecks people and/or Kyra gave up her olympic dream. ;)



Penny and Kyra are amateurs not because they are not good at their sport but because their sport lacks a formal structure were the best in the world compete against each other under a structure system. Women bjj is a new beast that lacks the formal structure of Olympic wrestling and judo. It also lacks the structure to facilitate and produce world class athletes. Most bjj women do not train like professional because there is no payday for them thus they enter mma. A professional athlete is in the gym 5-6 times a week for 8-12 hours a day. I can't speak for Kyra but I'm sure that she realized that high level judo is a lot tougher and aggressive than bjj. Dan and Dave Carmillo study judo first and then bjj and they are not Olympic judo caliber. Btw, I do think they are best at combining bjj and judo and they are complete grapplers.
1/22/11 11:23 PM
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gbutts
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gbutts - 
Missing Glove Tape - I think it's disrespectful to call Penny and Kyra amateurs considering their accomplishments in their sport. They're at the top of bjj heap, too, and they train/compete full-time just like other professionals. That said, there's really no comparing the talent pool/level of play to judo. Women's bjj/grappling hasn't been around nearly long enough nor does it draw from as large an athlete base, so it's not surprising that Ronda wrecks people and/or Kyra gave up her olympic dream. ;)



Penny and Kyra are amateurs not because they are not good at their sport but because their sport lacks a formal structure were the best in the world compete against each other under a structure system. Women bjj is a new beast that lacks the formal structure of Olympic wrestling and judo. It also lacks the structure to facilitate and produce world class athletes. Most bjj women do not train like professional because there is no payday for them thus they enter mma. A professional athlete is in the gym 5-6 times a week for 8-12 hours a day. I can't speak for Kyra but I'm sure that she realized that high level judo is a lot tougher and aggressive than bjj. Dan and Dave Carmillo study judo first and then bjj and they are not Olympic judo caliber. Btw, I do think they are best at combining bjj and judo and they are complete grapplers.


I agree with everything you except them being professional athletes.
1/22/11 11:26 PM
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gbutts
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btw, if anybody is going to the gracie nationals in los angeles please come and say hi. I would love to place a face on the people of this forum.
1/22/11 11:28 PM
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Missing Glove Tape
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The mundials and adcc aren't a formal structure where the best compete against the best? Come on! It draws from and takes place on a much smaller scale than international judo or wrestling, but both Penny and Kyra are professionals because they a) train full-time, b) compete against the best in their sport, and c) earn their living by way of their sport.

That in no way guarantees either Penny or Kyra can compete with the world-class athletes from other sports. And in Kyra's case I think you're absolutely right. She probably thought all she needed was a little bit of cross-training in order to make a run at an olympic medal, and when she found out how stiff the competition actually is and that it'd require 100% dedication for a lot of years she decided it wouldn't be worth it(ie: big fish-small pond > small fish-big pond).
1/23/11 12:01 AM
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gbutts
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Edited: 01/23/11 12:52 AM
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<blockquote>Missing Glove Tape - The mundials and adcc aren't a formal structure where the best compete against the best? Come on! It draws from and takes place on a much smaller scale than international judo or wrestling, but both Penny and Kyra are professionals because they a) train full-time, b) compete against the best in their sport, and c) earn their living by way of their sport. <br /><br />That in no way guarantees either Penny or Kyra can compete with the world-class athletes from other sports. And in Kyra's case I think you're absolutely right. She probably thought all she needed was a little bit of cross-training in order to make a run at an olympic medal, and when she found out how stiff the competition actually is and that it'd require 100% dedication for a lot of years she decided it wouldn't be worth it(ie: big fish-small pond > small fish-big pond).</blockquote><br /><br />

Adcc does draw the best for men not women because there are so few. I would love to see the top women in wrestling and judo compete in the adcc but they can't because they are training for their sport, so what does that leave us with? Bjj women or low level women wrestlers or judo people that are not as athletic as current international, world or Olympic medalist. Felicia got schooled by a Japan junior judo national champion in grappler quest (or some big grapping event) and she is supposed to be a great grappler. Having beat 3 0r 4 people to advance to the adcc world is nothing like beating the best in your country and then fighting the best from other countries and winning and international medal in wrestling and judo. Penny and Kyra make money because most people think bjj is the start and finish of grappling and they are good at there sport. They are more like professional spokeswomen for there sport but not professional athletes<br />
1/23/11 12:04 AM
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gbutts
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Edited: 01/23/11 12:51 AM
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btw, I still think the best women grappler/mma is the mma queen.
1/23/11 12:10 AM
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gbutts
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cyborg and the professional mma women are professional athletes. women bjj vs women judo is like comparing high school wrestling to international freestyle wrestling. Yes, they train hard but not even close to an internatioanl freesytle.
1/23/11 12:15 AM
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Missing Glove Tape
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You're arguing semantics, man. The best women in sport 'grappling' compete in adcc, same as the men. I mean, which olympic judoka has competed thus far? None that I know of. Olympic wrestlers? I can't think of any off hand. Yet you're drawing a line in the sand between the men and women, amateur and professional. It doesn't make sense.

1/23/11 12:33 AM
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judom
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I mostly agree with gbutts, except I would add that ADCC or Mundials are tiny tournaments. Really. I think 90% of judo guys I've talked to don't know what ADCC means. I thought originally its more like entertainment than a sport. ADCC or Mundials, its just not many people competing there. I would compare it to a regional tournament in judo in terms of interest (in a good judo country).

MissingGloveTape,

As far as judo, my guess is Kyra gave up not only because it would require massive time investment to get a medal, but more like she does not have the potential for it. And at this age, no BJJ woman (or man) can enter an international judo tourney and hope to do well. This is not for everyone, and participating in a sport like BJJ (or combat sambo say), where the competition is so low, cannot even begin to prepare you, for what will happen to you in international judo.
1/23/11 12:45 AM
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gbutts
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Edited: 01/23/11 12:47 AM
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<blockquote>Missing Glove Tape - You're arguing semantics, man. The best women in sport 'grappling' compete in adcc, same as the men. I mean, which olympic judoka has competed thus far? None that I know of. Olympic wrestlers? I can't think of any off hand. Yet you're drawing a line in the sand between the men and women, amateur and professional. It doesn't make sense.

The men divisions have a bigger pool of grapplers to pull from. Men grappling division are more professional because it offers more money thus the men are more adapt to train more because they have more at stake. Shultz she competed in an adcc qualifier and won and her matwork was very low level but she won because she was more aggressive than the other women even though she was beyond her competitive years. I think that in time the pool of women will grow and better athletes will appear. I have nothing against women bjj but it is a shallow pool. That is why you can name all the top competitors on one hand. That doesn't mean that they are not good at their sport, but it does mean that their sport lacks competition and competitors. The evolution of the UFC is a good example of a sport pool of athletes improving over time. I think Ronda is a blue print of what future women grapplers will emerge and in ten or fifteen years some women will make her grappling look like child play. I not trying to disrepect any of the women grapplers because most of time they don't shy away from any competition but for the most part they don't train like men or professional athletes because they dont get pay enough to make that commitment; those that do go into mma because of the money. I hope this make sense if not sorry.
1/23/11 12:51 AM
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Missing Glove Tape
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Again, you're arguing semantics re: men and women, amateur and professional.

Is women's bjj/grappling on the same athletic/competitve level as international judo/wrestling? Absolutely not! Are *all* women in bjj/grappling world-class athletes earning their living from the sport? No. But none of that diminshes Penny/Kyra's status as professionals who're the best at their sport.
1/23/11 1:03 AM
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gbutts
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Edited: 01/23/11 1:05 AM
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<blockquote>Missing Glove Tape - Again, you're arguing semantics re: men and women, amateur and professional. <br /><br />Is women's bjj/grappling on the same athletic/competitve level as international judo/wrestling? Absolutely not! Are *all* women in bjj/grappling world-class athletes earning their living from the sport? No. But none of that diminshes Penny/Kyra's status as professionals who're the best at their sport.</blockquote><br /><br /

i'm not a professional if i beat the same 3 or 5 people over and over again in some so call world tournament (a tournament that does not include 80% of the countries in the world and whose competitor pool are 8 women). I'm just better than those people. If this is not true than my bjj purple belt/judo bb daughter is a professional because she hasn't lost a bjj match in this area. And grappling is not a professional or top level amatuer sport and most of these women are from bjj. i simply said that the men in grappling train like professional because there is money in the sport for men. the money for women is very low.
1/23/11 1:09 AM
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Missing Glove Tape
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judom - MissingGloveTape,

As far as judo, my guess is Kyra gave up not only because it would require massive time investment to get a medal, but more like she does not have the potential for it. And at this age, no BJJ woman (or man) can enter an international judo tourney and hope to do well. This is not for everyone, and participating in a sport like BJJ (or combat sambo say), where the competition is so low, cannot even begin to prepare you, for what will happen to you in international judo.


Yes and no. How old is Kyra now, like 24-25? I can't remember how long ago she was talking olympic judo but it had to have been a few years ago so we're talking what, 21-22yrs old? She started bjj around the same time Ronda started judo, and even at 21-22yrs old she still had/has the time(youth) and space/opportunity(Brazil ain't exactly a judo shithole) to mold a game around her newaza that would allow her to be competitive. I just think she didn't realize a) how much it sucks getting thrown day-in-day-out by world class athletes and b) how ineffective(ie: as a strength/advantage) her newaza would be on its own.

It's much easier to be a gorgeous celebrity with world titles making $$$ and living the good life in a small pond than an annoynmous beauty getting the shit kicked out of her in the gym and on a world stage, making little money(don't know if Brazilian judoka are rich celebrities like Euro/Japanese judoka) and stuck on a grueling global odyssey trying to earn/keep the points and experience necessary to achieve, with NO GUARANTEES, her goal of an olympic berth/medal.
1/23/11 1:28 AM
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gbutts
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Missing Glove Tape - 
judom - MissingGloveTape,

As far as judo, my guess is Kyra gave up not only because it would require massive time investment to get a medal, but more like she does not have the potential for it. And at this age, no BJJ woman (or man) can enter an international judo tourney and hope to do well. This is not for everyone, and participating in a sport like BJJ (or combat sambo say), where the competition is so low, cannot even begin to prepare you, for what will happen to you in international judo.


Yes and no. How old is Kyra now, like 24-25? I can't remember how long ago she was talking olympic judo but it had to have been a few years ago so we're talking what, 21-22yrs old? She started bjj around the same time Ronda started judo, and even at 21-22yrs old she still had/has the time(youth) and space/opportunity(Brazil ain't exactly a judo shithole) to mold a game around her newaza that would allow her to be competitive. I just think she didn't realize a) how much it sucks getting thrown day-in-day-out by world class athletes and b) how ineffective(ie: as a strength/advantage) her newaza would be on its own.

It's much easier to be a gorgeous celebrity with world titles making $$$ and living the good life in a small pond than an annoynmous beauty getting the shit kicked out of her in the gym and on a world stage, making little money(don't know if Brazilian judoka are rich celebrities like Euro/Japanese judoka) and stuck on a grueling global odyssey trying to earn/keep the points and experience necessary to achieve, with NO GUARANTEES, her goal of an olympic berth/medal.

I totally disagree that a 21 year old would have time became a world class judo player it would take about 10 years become a good judo player because all her bjj standing grappling and gripping would have be to corrected and adapting to these stupid new rules of judo would almost negate her type of transition into newaza. Plus time and experience she would need gain to compete against the best in brazil she would need about tens years. thing about brazilian judo is that they are equally good at standing and newaza; she probably did not know that the top brazilian judo women are just as good on the mat as she is. I agree that she found the rewards of becoming a judo olympian not worth it.
1/23/11 1:30 AM
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gbutts
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great discussion tonight. I hope I didn't offend anyone. I have to go to work. have a good night.
1/23/11 1:39 AM
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judom
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Missing,

20-21 is ok to be world class in judo, but you need to have had say wrestling or sambo background, in particular being adept at the standing game and also having great conditioning. BJJ won't do it, its an incomplete art and it doesn't develop the body the way judo/sambo/wrestling does.

I agree with you, 21 ain't a good starting age to be taking daily beatings from world class athletes, as you point out. She is also I think in the 63kg weight-class that is super tough.

21 is old though, I recently talked to a girl that is 19 and just won a medal at the junior europeans in judo. She said she has been doing judo for 12 years. she is very strong and athletic, similar to ronda, i have not seen any women in BJJ anywhere close to this level of athleticism and strength.

1/23/11 1:50 AM
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Missing Glove Tape
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My point is that she's a world-class bjjer who's been training for what, 14yrs? Not a 21yr old non-athlete with a pipe dream.

Is bjj the best vehicle to transitioning to international judo? No. As mentioned she'd have had a better shot making the transition by way of wrestling or sambo. But the fact remains she did have a chance just based on Brazil's judo tradition. The rest was up to her and she simply decided not to chase an olympic berth/medal by dedicating herself 100% to judo for however long it takes.
1/23/11 1:58 AM
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judom
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well, she would somehow need to develop a throw that is effective against world-class athletes that have been doing judo since 5. Not going to happen at 21 and not in 1 of the most competitive classes in women's judo.

She could certainly get a lot of coaching to get her to a good level in 4-5 years, but it'd be extremely tough to be np.1 inside Brazil, I don't see it...and then internationally, that sounds almost impossible.

21 is just too late to come to international judo from a sport like BJJ. However, she can still enjoy the benefits of judo, just not at the world class level.
1/23/11 2:12 AM
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Missing Glove Tape
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I really don't know what kind of athlete Kyra is, but that's not really the point either. It's that if she made a decision to pursue judo then she needs/needed to do whatever it takes to become competitive. If that meant 3-4yrs of training nothing but tachi-waza and scrambles/transitions before she's even close to ready for international level play, or to challenge for the #1 spot on her team, then so be it. That's the trial by fire you get when you want to be an olympian. Same thing with being old at 21. Age is nothing but a number. It's injuries and lifestyle(s) that really kill these kinds of dreams. And in doing bjj, I'm thinking she's still pretty healthy overall(ie: big fish-small pond), so again, in my mind it's the lifestyle more than anything that made her say matte.
1/23/11 7:34 AM
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BJJWorkouts
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 Here's Kyra against a male Judoka.

Stand up looks bad but she ends up winning. Not sure if it's a work though.

Kyra vs Judoka
1/23/11 10:44 AM
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judom
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BJJ,

that is funny more than anything, some TV host. :)

Missing,

Sorry man...its not about lifestyle. 3-4 years are not enough to develop a world-class judo game (from a BJJ background). Not by a long shot. I should also add btw that many competitors, male and female , in Judo from eastern europe / Russia participate in sports sambo a lot which develops strength better than judo.

Ultimately, she'd be competing with people who have been doing judo about 10 years longer than her, are better physically and many are younger on top of that. And...there are hundreds and hundreds of them.

Anyway...she found out the hard way, this is not as easy as 4 people in a weight class where they are cooks, lawyers and doctors.
1/23/11 2:50 PM
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judom - BJJ,
Sorry man...its not about lifestyle. 3-4 years are not enough to develop a world-class judo game (from a BJJ background). Not by a long shot. I should also add btw that many competitors, male and female , in Judo from eastern europe / Russia participate in sports sambo a lot which develops strength better than judo.

Ultimately, she'd be competing with people who have been doing judo about 10 years longer than her, are better physically and many are younger on top of that. And...there are hundreds and hundreds of them.

Anyway...she found out the hard way, this is not as easy as 4 people in a weight class where they are cooks, lawyers and doctors.


Then we agree to disagree. But my point is that she would either do what is necessary to achieve or goals or she wouldn't. We know what choice she made, so it's all good.

But I still disagree re: age and how quickly a world-class competitor can rise to the occasion. Look at what Georges St. Pierre accomplished with wrestling. Working out with the national(or olympic, I forget) team for how long? And then he gets a shot at nationals to compete for a spot on their team. All of this coming from a 27yr old karate kid with NO wrestling pedigree, just athleticism and an world-class work ethic. So, what I'm saying is that if Kyra really wanted to chase an olympic dream she had the space and opportunity to do it re: Brazilian judo. Had she spent 3-4 yrs dedicating herself to standup(notice I don't say that's long enough to be a contender, it's just a starting point) then yes, I believe she be in a position to compete at an international level of play because a) we'd know she's capable of a single-minded pursuit of something, b) she/we would know she could survive/thrive in an environment with world-class athletes, and c) we would know she had a 'base' to begin tailoring a game around her newaza in order to begin competing and gaining the necessary points/experience for an olympic run somewhere down the line. And again, notice I don't say 3-4yrs is all she needs to be ready for international compeition. What I'm talking about is a situation where she gets a chance to work out with Brazil's coaches/athletes and the time/effort it takes to go through the trial by fire of 'learning' judo in a world-class environment with/against world-class athletes to a) prove she's got what it takes(mental toughness/dedication) and b) break bad habits/develop a new foundation(ie: posture, balance, footwork, entries, SPRAWLING instead of buttflopping, etc) that will give her something to build on down the line. What happens in the future, after 5,6,7 years of training when she starts competing internationally and making a run is anyone's guess. Does she get steamrolled by bottom rung players from Cameroon/Kiribati or does she become a female Brazilian Kashiwazaki with strong footsweeps/sacrifice throws and the ability to submit people or grind out koka/yuko victories? We don't know because she gave up even before she started, but who can really say what her potential was? Did she ever workout with the Brazilian team? Did the coaches give her a Caesar-like thumbs down?

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