UnderGround Forums
 

Cigars, Beer & Poker Ground >> Can you ever fold Kings preflop?


8/7/10 3:11 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
andre
417 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 45074
GC111 - andre, you just simply have an ego problem. You feel threatened yourself when I'm debating with another player.

I think you have an inflated ego because you won a tournament recently. Congrats to you, but a tournament involves a lot more luck than cash games, which is why I really do not like tournaments.

I know PR's here all the time. PR was the main reason why I made the thread. I don't come here at all but it doesn't neccessarily mean a he's a superior player than I am. And yes, I do recognize he's been playing poker much longer than I have, therefore he's able to have a bankroll to play higher stakes than I do at the moment. But it doesn't mean he's infallible or he's a high stakes player.

"Unless he's showing down every single hand, and youve spent hours and hours watching and keeping tabs on every single one, your calculation isnt anything more than a silly guess. And you are justifying your fold on that silly guess."

So you'd call/raise someone with JJ, who typically limps in preflop, who 4-bets you? Ok, keep playing that way andre. Shove allin blind with JJ because it's 1/2. And he's not exactly a tight player if he's willing to go allin with AQ.

And you were wrong above shoving the 3-bet. As PR said, it lets him off the hook if he has a mediocre hand. My opponent with the Aces was neither a spewtard or aggromonkey and he was adjusting to my play by folding to most of my preflop raises. Plus he INSTASHOVED, as I described it, when I reraised him. You'd think that maybe with QQ or AK he'd think for half a second or longer before making that last reraise. That's what gave a higher possibility of Aces. But you don't look for that stuff. You just simply play Level 1 poker and do a massive overbet to a 3-bet without even thinking. You're just insecure when someone a mudnamer like myself is disagreeing.

And no, I don't live on the 2+2 forums. I hardly go there since most of the advice is misinformation, like yours. I've just been reading a lot of books and articles for several months before I took a jump to live poker.

"And dont call people fish. It's a stupid thing for anyone to call another player, much less someone who has your limited hours at the table under his belt."

Just because most people I've played against have played way more than I have doesn't mean they're better at all. I see the most experienced players at 1/2 make mistakes all the time. Why do the regulars at the casino I frequent tend to avoid playing with hands with me nowadays? If I was as terrible a player as you describe, they would salivate at the chance to win their money back when I'm in.

I don't have an ego problem like yourself because I don't have a problem with stepping down. Maybe I think shoving with bottom 2 pair in a limped pot is risky. I'm just patiently simply trying to build my bankroll, which I'm doing well in for several months now, which is why I'm starting at 1/2(I'm not able to play online.) At really weak tables, you simply can't do a lot of stuff except to wait. Take a pro to $1/$2 and he'll probably be bored to death.

"My advice: deposit $50 on Full Tilt or Poker Stars and play at the lowest possible level until you build a bigger bankroll and can move up. You arent ready for $1/$2."

Now you are tilting here. For someone who doesn't bother to read his opponents, I guess you must be right. Because live $1/$2 equals .10/.25 online, and despite capitalizing on mistakes at $1/$2 at getting a decent win rate I must not be ready for microstakes. Keep assuming that every new member to the Poker forum is worse than you are.


I was going to reply to everything you wrote, but I'll let your own post serve as my reply. Anyone who knows anything about poker will see how off base you are about everything. I was trying to save you money, because I made all of the mistakes you're making, but I can see it's hopeless.

For the record, I dont have any delusions about the level of my play. I'm a mediocre player at best, but I'm hopeful because I am willing to learn. That puts me wayyyy ahead of you.
8/7/10 3:12 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
andre
417 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 45075
"I know PR's here all the time. PR was the main reason why I made the thread. I don't come here at all but it doesn't neccessarily mean a he's a superior player than I am. And yes, I do recognize he's been playing poker much longer than I have, therefore he's able to have a bankroll to play higher stakes than I do at the moment. But it doesn't mean he's infallible or he's a high stakes player."

Now I know you're trolling.
8/7/10 5:36 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
PR
53 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 24933
jeez
8/7/10 11:41 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
billid
172 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 20700
I'll leave it at this,

Just because somebody has a leak, doesn't mean they are a losing player.

8/8/10 12:00 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
andre
417 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 45078
billid - I'll leave it at this,

Just because somebody has a leak, doesn't mean they are a losing player.



Is this directed to me or to him? Not sure what you mean.
8/8/10 12:00 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
andre
417 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 45079
Well, I know what you mean, but I'm not sure who you are referring to.
8/8/10 2:01 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
andre
417 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 45081
billid, in case it's in reference to my classifying him as a losing player (not really what I said, just that I think he will be a lifetime losing player), what I meant was that he currently has misconceptions (we all do...or at least I know I do), but the misconceptions arent the problem, his inability to open be corrected (not by me, but by PR at least) is what makes me think he's doomed.
8/8/10 4:48 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
billid
172 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 20714
nah andre. I wasn't directing that towards you. I didn't like how he defended himself to me by saying he's winning so he must not be "doing it wrong"

I should have quoted him
8/8/10 4:49 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
billid
172 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 20715
especially over the sample size he gave. I put that many hours in over a 2 week period
8/9/10 12:51 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
billid
172 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 20724
mnbvcxzchewy - 
GC111 Looking back at the 2 months I've played poker so far,


lol. if you still playing poker 1 year from now, you will laugh at yourself when you reread this tread.



I laugh at what I say every 6 months. It's funny to look back or see threads come up where I wrote something and I want to delete the shit because it's based on ignorance.
8/11/10 3:07 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
jujubre
97 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 28721
lol this loser coming asking for advice and getting all defensive when he gets them.
8/11/10 10:24 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
JHR
193 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 7/9/02
Posts: 34916
 I've never folded Kings yet preflop, but realistically haven't seen near the amount of hands yet as others.

It might happen someday but who knows. Really depends on the situation at the time and my gut feeling.
8/11/10 6:13 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
joe canada
40 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 1915
I have folded KK preflop before, but it was to a VERY tight player and at the time I had a tight image. Given the way the hand played out, there were only two hands he could have, KK or AA and I had two K's. I was right. I've also folded into a cascading raise/reraising nonsense that, by the time it got to me HAD to mean someone had the AA.

Now that I am known as a much more aggressive player, especially in position, I call with KK unless I am retardedly deep. My own range is too big for someone to give me credit for AA when I play strong, which makes their possible range with which to go all the way larger as well. It's the downside of being an aggressive player -- you;re opponents' ranges expand as well.

Reminds me of a hand I played a few years ago. 5/10 live

I checkraise the SB pre with KK
SB reraises, I call in position.
Flop comes all unders, no draw.
SB bets, I call.
Turn blank, SB shoves I fold.

Given my table image and the fact that this guy was an aggressive but very careful player once he got action, and I was playing very tight weak (due in no small part to an ice-cold session), I simply couldn;t see any holding he could have besides AA or KK that let him take that line, and with such apparent glee. And I had 2 K's in my hand...

I folded, he tabled KK. I lied and said I had QQ while chewing on my liver.

Lesson learned: don;t let myself get into the position of making difficult decisions. Hand is good enough to commit? Commit.
8/11/10 9:30 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
JHR
193 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 7/9/02
Posts: 34939
 Joe, what were the stack sizes for the hand, do you remember?

When the blank hit the turn and he pushes it looks too fishy. You have to figure he didnt hit a set or two pair (due to the way he was re-raising pre-flop, it screams high pair or AK suited) if he did hit his set or two pair he would try to value bet it wouldn't he? To me the all in screams JJ - AA and with that, my hand beats 2 possible hands,loses to one and chops the other. depending on the stack sizes, I believe you have to call the all in.

Just my 2 cents
8/12/10 4:33 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
ATLien420
72 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 11/30/08
Posts: 955
 this thread is fckn awesome....
i remember when i started off as a winner and thought i knew it all.....oh, the humble pie that will surely come
8/13/10 12:16 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
joe canada
40 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 1944
It was two or three years back, so I don't remember clearly. I had half my stack in by the time the turn hit. I was committed.

Given my table image at the time, and the way he played very agressively but then slowed down when he got action (throughout the session), I thought there was no way he'd have JJ or even QQ. AK? Would need monster balls.. Remember I checkraised the pre and smoothed his reraise and was for all intents and purposes (sorry, intensive porpoises) pot committed. He has to expect a call to his shove and I don;t see him shoving with the JJ or QQ knowing I have to call.

That being said, this was one of those times where I should have subjugated my read to poker theory. My read told me there was no way he had anything less than KK. He was too happy with his hand and taking a monster line. Had I raised the flop, the pressure would have been on him and I would have been so deep in the hand as to not be able to get away. Had I folded the flop (weak) I'd have saved a fair amount of money. Hell, had I re-re-raised the pre...

ARRGH.

I put myself in the position to make a mistake.

Live. Learn.
8/14/10 12:50 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
wreckker
71 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 7354
 In deep stack events like wsop main event you can fold them ealry in the tourney or even late in right spots.

when blinds are 200-400 and average stack is 50,000 then going bust with kk after being 5 bet preflop is your fault usually.....

these are extreme examples.

I just look at my opponet and with all the info about him I have I ask myself would he play that way with QQ ak JJ?  When I think hell no!... then its not that hard to lay down kk.

I threw away kk preflop in a 5-10 potlimit game 10 years ago to fairly loose player that was a TOUGH laydown, people often play AA so transparently you just have to read the clues.

Online its much tougher IMO than live, stacks have to be super deep and even then its tougher to laydown online.



Reply Post

You must log in to post a reply. Click here to login.