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Judo/Sambo UnderGround >> NO RESPECT FOR JUDO IN MMA


8/17/10 1:26 PM
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gbutts
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JUST A FEWS QUESTIONS AND OBSERVATIONS:
1. WHY THE PEOPLE ALWAYS SAY THAT WORLD CLASS JUDO PLAYERS WHO ENTER MMA NEED TO WORK ON THEIR STRIKING, BUT TOP LEVEL WRESTLERS OR BJJ ENTER MMA NOBODY MENTIONS THEIR LACK OF STRIKING ABILITY.

2. MOST JUDO PLAYERS LACK GROUNDWORK; HOWEVER, THOSE WHO DO HAVE A GROUND GAME ARE JUST AS GOOD AS BJJ PEOPLE IF NOT BETTER WHEN IT COMES MMA(BJJ PEOPLE HAVE A VERY HARD TIME TRANSITIONING FROM STANDING TO MATWORK) (THROWING TO SUBMISSION).

3. RONDA ROUSEY IS AT LEAST 2 YEARS AWAY BEFORE SHE FIGHTS CYBORG IN MMA BUT IF IT WAS A GRAPPLING MATCH SHE WOULD SUBMIT CYBORG VERY EASILY.


4.THIS NEW GENERATION OF JUDO PLAYERS WILL BECOME TOP THE MMA PEOPLE.

5. JUDO IS THE BEST GRAPPLINNG SPORT TO CROSSOVER INTO MMA BECAUSE OF UP-RIGHT FIGHTING STANCE, GRIP FIGHTING IS VERY SIMILAR TO BOXING, AND UNLIKE WRESTLERS JUDO PLAYERS DON'T HAVE TO CHANGE LEVELS TO EXCUTE TAKEDOWNS AND THROWS.

*THIS THREAD IS NOT INTEND TO START A JUDO VS ANYTING DISCUSSION I LOVE ALL FORMS OF GRAPPLINGS THESE ARE JUST MY VIEWS.
8/17/10 3:22 PM
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Outkaster
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Believe it or not most MMA guys disrespect any kind of traditional Martial Art, even if it is effective. Anyone doing Judo seriously has an edge in MMA in my opinion.
8/17/10 6:00 PM
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JoshuaResnick
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it is nice that i dont really care about MMA one way or the other. i see it as prize fighting... i like to watch and follow it a bit, but i have no vested interest in seeing somebody win just because s/he does judo or this or that...

the better fighter will almost always win.. it has nothing to do with the "arts"
8/17/10 6:16 PM
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nowaydo
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I love MMA and love coaching it. Basically because I've train in each individual art that comprises MMA in some period of my life for the last 30+ years.

MMA People I come across do respect judo, but most have little knowledge of it. I have found more Judo people who look down on MMA than the opposite. But I also found lots of BJJ guys, boxers and wrestlers who don't think much of MMA either.
Like Josh said, they don't see the "art".

I see the "art" for I trained in the art of boxing, kickboxing, wrestling, BJJ, Judo, Sambo and the "art" to me is being able to integrate those skills into one productive force. That's art to me and science.

It doesn't bother me when people who don't participate in the sport doesn't see the art, but it bothers me when the fighters themselves don't see or practice MMA as an art.
8/17/10 8:57 PM
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judoblackbelt
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Most of us in judo don't care what MMAers think about judo. We know what it is and can do. I don't look down on MMA but it is not an "Art" in my opinion. Where is the skill in elbow strikes on the ground? Or knees to the head from the ground? If there are judo people in MMA I want to see them throw people and submit people without strikes.
8/17/10 9:58 PM
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Outkaster
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judoblackbelt - Most of us in judo don't care what MMAers think about judo. We know what it is and can do. I don't look down on MMA but it is not an "Art" in my opinion. Where is the skill in elbow strikes on the ground? Or knees to the head from the ground? If there are judo people in MMA I want to see them throw people and submit people without strikes.



Good point exactly.
8/18/10 12:05 AM
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nowaydo
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Where is the skill in elbow and knee strikes on the ground?

There is skill. If it wasn't a skill, everyone could do it. Everyone cannot.

I am bias to throwing and submissions also, yet I truly prefer to witness a true MMA fight...good striking, good clinching, good throwing and a nice submission. That's MMA to me.

I knows Judo schools that consider "sport Judo" inartistic. For they play for points and medals, not art and honor.

Of course, I disagree with this but it's a similar attitude that degrades MMA.
8/18/10 2:38 AM
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leothelion
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 I always find it somewhat humorous when I query the dude all geared up with Tapout gear at my gym...I ask him what martial art he trains in...his response..."I train in MMA"...my response "I know that, but what martial art do you train in"....I still believe it valid that a person fighting MMA needs to have a base art....I believe that Judo is an excellent base art....among American fighters their is a great ignorance of Judo and it's effectiveness whether wearing a gi or not...among fighters in other countries Judo is well respected....Just among the Brazilian fighters...almost universally all the BJJ hero's of American fighters trained for years in Judo...all the Gracies....Andre Galvao..just to name a few...I am pleased that we are seeing more Judo in the Octagon...All the young elite Judo players have been raised on MMA....they will make an impact in the octagon, cages and rings everywhere...
8/18/10 3:40 AM
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JoshuaResnick
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i train UFC
8/18/10 5:07 AM
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gbutts
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nowaydo - Where is the skill in elbow and knee strikes on the ground?

There is skill. If it wasn't a skill, everyone could do it. Everyone cannot.

I am bias to throwing and submissions also, yet I truly prefer to witness a true MMA fight...good striking, good clinching, good throwing and a nice submission. That's MMA to me.

I knows Judo schools that consider "sport Judo" inartistic. For they play for points and medals, not art and honor.

Of course, I disagree with this but it's a similar attitude that degrades MMA.


yes mma is an art and it requires a great deal of skill
8/18/10 9:22 AM
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jrv
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judoblackbelt - Most of us in judo don't care what MMAers think about judo. We know what it is and can do. I don't look down on MMA but it is not an "Art" in my opinion. Where is the skill in elbow strikes on the ground? Or knees to the head from the ground? If there are judo people in MMA I want to see them throw people and submit people without strikes.

I think that if an MMA fighter treats it as an art then there is an art. Just like there are judoka who are artists and there are judoka who are just athletes.

When you see elbow strikes on the ground, it's usually not the most graceful technique but that doesn't take away the fact that there is artistry in timing, efficient body mechanics and angle in those situations. On the other side of the coin there is artistry in defending and escaping the position when elbow strikes are involved.

If an artist plays the game it becomes an art. If a gamer plays the game it becomes a sport.
8/18/10 10:14 AM
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nowaydo
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I agree leothelion,
I truly believe you need a base art. Years ago, you had no choice but now you get the ..."I train MMA". Very weak.
8/18/10 1:44 PM
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leothelion
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 @JoshuaResnick...LOL...good one....saldly there are people out there that believe that....

Personally, I believe that what the traditional Martial Arts bring to the MMA arena are standards of behavior and respect...for the competition itself and your opponent.... I have found that the longer a MMA fighter competes, in many cases. they gain greater appreciation for the traditional aspects of the Martial arts....they learn to appreciate what it brings to their game...I believe that there always will be a place for the traditional martial artist/ fighter in MMA...
8/18/10 6:37 PM
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jujubre
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judoblackbelt - Most of us in judo don't care what MMAers think about judo. We know what it is and can do. I don't look down on MMA but it is not an "Art" in my opinion. Where is the skill in elbow strikes on the ground? Or knees to the head from the ground? If there are judo people in MMA I want to see them throw people and submit people without strikes.


lolz
8/18/10 11:13 PM
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JoshuaResnick
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UFC fanboy: hey... you got cauliflower ears.. ther's guys at my gym with that, but not quite as bad as yours.. do you train UFC too? man, doesnt i bet you feel like you can handle anything or anybody who comes your way, huh? i wouldnt fuck with a guy who looks like you...


me: <blank stare in reply>
8/18/10 11:53 PM
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Empire
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gbutts,

there's crazy respect for judo players at my dojo (bjj, striking, and mma). we do standup but not judo per se.

as long as the judoka is honest in that they need to focus on other things, then the best fighter wins. if you get a guy going in as a judo bad ass then he will lose to a well rounded fighter, usually.

8/19/10 1:33 AM
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gbutts
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Empire - gbutts,

there's crazy respect for judo players at my dojo (bjj, striking, and mma). we do standup but not judo per se.

as long as the judoka is honest in that they need to focus on other things, then the best fighter wins. if you get a guy going in as a judo bad ass then he will lose to a well rounded fighter, usually.


true, ! i just think that judo is an easy cross-over to mma, all most judo player lead with their right foot and hand (stans south paw) which give most mma fighters fits.
8/19/10 10:53 AM
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Judo Scott
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1. Gary I don't know who your talking about but everyone that knows anything in my gym says that to pretty much to any grappling specialist not just Judo guys.

2. Thats like saying BJJ guys lack throws but those that do are just as good if not better when it comes to MMA. What does that really say? Nothing.. it just means that the athlete is well trained.

3. I've never seen Ronda on the ground for any length of time but Cyborg is good so I'm undecided.

4 & 5 - It doesn't matter what base grappling art you come from so long as you have a good standup game. Judo may indeed give you a better edge at MMA striking but thats only at the lower levels at the higher levels you better be well rounded.
8/19/10 11:57 AM
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gbutts
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Judo Scott - 1. Gary I don't know who your talking about but everyone that knows anything in my gym says that to pretty much to any grappling specialist not just Judo guys.

2. Thats like saying BJJ guys lack throws but those that do are just as good if not better when it comes to MMA. What does that really say? Nothing.. it just means that the athlete is well trained.

3. I've never seen Ronda on the ground for any length of time but Cyborg is good so I'm undecided.

4 & 5 - It doesn't matter what base grappling art you come from so long as you have a good standup game. Judo may indeed give you a better edge at MMA striking but thats only at the lower levels at the higher levels you better be well rounded.
e

i agree about being well round; however, talking about people who are consider the best at their grappling( art bjj, judo, wrestling), if we used ufc or strike force as examples they never question the bjj or wrestler ability to overcome the opponents striking ability. i just think judo is an easier cross-over to mma

8/29/10 7:05 AM
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Osaekomi
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I have to go along with Nowaydo's assertions. Steel is stronger than iron because it is a mixture. All the components are necessary to give steel maximum strength.

Defeating a well-rounded fighter is more difficult because he is a better fighter, all things being equal, i.e. stamina, strength, etc.

As Rudyard Kipling asserted: "For the strength of the wolf is in the pack and the strength of the pack is in the wolf".

So when a fighter enters mma his base "art" is the work of the "rough in" carpenter and it is time to call in the "finished carpenter".

A great bar fighter is a great sucker-puncher. Sucker-punching can be called an art. It is just semantics.
8/29/10 4:01 PM
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nowaydo
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"...Steel is stronger than iron because it is a mixture. All the components are necessary to give steel maximum strength."

I love that quote.
9/3/10 8:26 PM
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Crescere
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Training has evolved. I know of several schools that will have certain days devoted exclusively to BJJ, Muay Thai, and MMA training. MMA day is about tying it all together. MMA is far closer to a street fight than any one grappling only or striking only art because more is allowed. 
 
Mark Rippetoe says he has no “favorite muscle” so instead of trying to isolate he recommends compound movements that work entire systems of muscle. Similarly I don’t have a favorite technique.   If I am attacked on the street I don’t care if I take out the bad guy with a punch, elbow, throw, or submission. It just does not matter. 
 
I have trained in Sambo, Judo, Muay Thai and BJJ and I loved all of it However, Judo is gi dependant except for the stuff I have seen by Karo Parisyan which is excellent. If one is interested in how he will perform in a street fight I think he should consider studying MMA.
 
I think those who say MMA is not an “art” need to take another look. The jutsu vs do arguments are really irrelevant. While I really don’t care about how a technique “looks” there is nothing prettier or more artful than a hard take down and dropping massive punches during a good ground and pound. MMA fighters are also some of the fittest and most capable athletes out there. 
9/4/10 10:03 AM
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judoblackbelt
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To Crescere - I do not disagree with anything you mentioned except the part about mma being an art in the sense Judo/BJJ/ Muay Thai are. To win a Judo World Championship you go thru approx. 8 fights on the same day and to be the best you must win all of the fights, not get hurt and fight someone else who went undefeated. This takes extrodinary skill, cunning, tactics to beat other world class players. I contrast this with an mma fight which is one opponent and you can go all out for that one fight. Take alot of beating or give it. So my "art" application is the rigors of fighting multiple opponents. When the UFC first started and used the multiple fight format I considered it a challenge of the different arts. You had to win and not get hurt to allow you to progress in the tournament.
9/5/10 4:10 PM
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mmalegit
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The problem with transferring from Judo to MMA, and I'm sure you've heard this many times is the gi. BJJ guys are successful because they have the option to train no-gi and that's a huge advantage. I haven't yet heard of a Judo dojo that offers no-gi training.
9/5/10 8:06 PM
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gbutts
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mmalegit - The problem with transferring from Judo to MMA, and I'm sure you've heard this many times is the gi. BJJ guys are successful because they have the option to train no-gi and that's a huge advantage. I haven't yet heard of a Judo dojo that offers no-gi training.


I teach Bjj people no-gi judo every weekend and it harder for Bjj to learn no-gi throws-into- submissions then it is a judo player. Most non-judo people don't realize how much of an advantage judo players have when it come to standing grappling to groundwork. Most Bjj people are very limited when comes to the type of standing grappling you need to succeed in mma. In fact training with a gi will only improve your standing and ground game because it force you use techique and it slows your ground game down, so you have excute escape perfect and submissions. While i agree to there are not alot of judo clubs that teach no-gi judo, judo players that enter mma find it very easy to tranfer their skills to mma.

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