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HolyGround >> the judaization of Christianity


8/24/10 5:19 PM
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zealot66
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 read this article. Its short but is interesting

8/24/10 7:04 PM
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Robert Wynne
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Rev. Ted Pike is director of the National Prayer Network, a Christian/conservative watchdog organization. 

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con-artist
8/24/10 8:16 PM
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martial_shadow
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after the first line, continuing seemed pointless.
8/25/10 12:28 AM
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Ridgeback
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 This is actually a trend in Evangelicalism, but it will fade like the rest of the fads. 
8/25/10 11:22 AM
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770mdm
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In Jewish circles it's common to hear, when discussing Christianity, that we gave them their guy!  So, it's no wonder they'd say something like this.  Both arguments are wrong.  Jesus was Jewish but because of either he proclaimed himself G-d or others did and those people only follow Jesus as G-d where there is no differentiation that is where Judaism stopped paying attention. 
8/25/10 4:34 PM
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zealot66
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 I know nothing about the person. I just thought he made some salient points. I think Ridge hit it when he said that Something to spice up evangelicals is to judaize the christian. Something Paul warned against in Galations.
8/25/10 5:38 PM
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Robert Wynne
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 he did warn against that. good point.
8/25/10 5:54 PM
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zealot66
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 And he argued with Peter over the whole thing too about judaizing christians. We are not bound to any of their traditions.
8/25/10 6:53 PM
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770mdm
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And that's how a new religion is created my friends.  Take the best and easiest parts and wash your hands of the hard stuff.
8/25/10 7:17 PM
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martial_shadow
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Hey 770, I'm going to start a new branch of Judaism. No circumcision, no kashrut, no praying 3 times a day, no seriously hardcore mitzvhot. I'm also going to completely change the theoological foundations of Judaism (Trinity, Icons, Heaven/Hell, Saints, Armagedon, their is no way to the Father save me) and nature of Jewish ethics (original sin, rabbis can no longer have sex, pardes is no longer an emphasized learning method, if you believe in G-d though, and do good works- Heaven is there).

Wanna join?

/FOR the sarcastic illiterate- this post is made in jest to illustrate a point.
8/26/10 12:58 AM
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Ridgeback
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770mdm - And that's how a new religion is created my friends.  Take the best and easiest parts and wash your hands of the hard stuff.

 Huh?  
8/26/10 12:59 AM
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Ridgeback
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 MS seems to be on a bit of an anti-Christian rampage at the moment.  
8/26/10 11:56 AM
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the rooster
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I think it's a huge mistake to wash our hands of the uniquely monolithical importance of Judaism to biblical Christianity. People flee any Jewish association in favor of a hellinized version.

They retreat from Jewish "traditions" in favor of philosophical and pagan influences from the hellenized gentile church.

While phyical circumcision no longer is required of Christians to be part of the Abrahamic covenant, circumcisim of the heart is required. How do we understand the cutting away of the flesh of the spiritual man without understanding the cost and context of the physical covenant with abraham and later with Moses (in which God threatens Moses life for not circumcizing his son!!!).

How do we understand the properly Jesus as our Passover lamb without understanding what God did for the Jews in deliverng them from Pharoah. How do we understand the role of the sacrifical lamb without understanding how a lamb was picked, searched for imperfections, slaughtered for the transgession of sins, the application of the blood, etc!?!?

Whether it's the holy days and festivals, the various covenants, the revelation of Y-h through his compound names, etc. none of this can be understood outside of a Jewish context.

We lose so much when we rip out the law and the prophets, relegate it to legalism and works, and start and end in the gospels.

The OT is the NT hidden and the NT is the OT revealed. Messiah was preached before the NT was written SOLELY from the types and shadows, the implied and explicit verses found in the Law and Prophets.

We have done a disservice to our Jewish brothers and sisters who we have been grafted into and persecuted them, alienated them, stripped the NT of it's biblical roots and created a nordic blond surfing messiah, with an old wizend father and a bird and asked them to join our religion.

8/26/10 12:44 PM
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martial_shadow
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Ridge- more like lack of sleep, lack of training, last week of thesis, supervisor not being helpful and damn sick and tired of having to show the missionaries in front of the medical building at my school that they don't speak two words of Hebrew and have no idea what the Bible atually says in context every single time I enter or leave the building (eg: um, why are you bringing up a pre-Covenant event and treting it with Covenant laws?). This combination of factors is making me much more sensitive than usual. Next week I should be beter.
8/26/10 7:14 PM
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Ridgeback
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martial_shadow - Ridge- more like lack of sleep, lack of training, last week of thesis, supervisor not being helpful and damn sick and tired of having to show the missionaries in front of the medical building at my school that they don't speak two words of Hebrew and have no idea what the Bible atually says in context every single time I enter or leave the building (eg: um, why are you bringing up a pre-Covenant event and treting it with Covenant laws?). This combination of factors is making me much more sensitive than usual. Next week I should be beter.

 Ah okay.  A thesis will drive a man to insanity so you are doing pretty good all told. 
8/26/10 7:31 PM
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zealot66
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 rooster , paul distinctly encourages gentiles to ignore the judaizers in galations and says it is unnecessary.

Exposit Paul against yourself. 
8/26/10 8:23 PM
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martial_shadow
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a few days ago I was actually going nuts. I wanted to say "Do we have any meat in the freezer?" but I think what came out was "Do freeze meat oatmeal." My mother was actually concenred I was having a stroke so I had to run her through the 5 minute stroke test to show her I was fine- and we had meat, so I got a few hours of work in that night. I just finished a major chapter (again) so I'm feeling pretty good.
8/26/10 10:53 PM
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the rooster
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zealot? So? I'm not advocating becoming a jew before becoming a Christian, or that eating pork is evil. What are you talking about?!
8/27/10 3:49 PM
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zealot66
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 rooster, Im just pointing out the futility of judaism mixing with christianity. Paul himself desired gentiles to be free of the OT, imo. Rather the cultural, dogmatic, legalism and absurdity of jewish law. I could go on and on about commandments in the OT that are on par with the 10 commandments in the jewish mind. I am becoming less and less convinced that the OT is really a useful document in the practice of christian life, yet many christians continue to pick and choose what they want out of the OT to be more 'biblical'
8/27/10 8:33 PM
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martial_shadow
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note: still in thesis mode so this makes sense in my brain

Zealot- 1, absurdity? dude there is just as much absurdity in Christianity. toes man, watch the toes.

2- generally, there are 2 ranks for laws (to my understanding and 770 can correct me if I'm wrong). First rank- don't committ idolatry, don't deny G-d. Second rank- EVERYTHING ELSE.

3- The picking and choosing from the OT has often been one of my main complaints about Christians. Either Jesus liberated you from the ENTIRE Covenant of Judaism, or HE added more to it, those are the options. If its liberated from the former, then why do half the things Christians do? They are hang ups from Judaism.

4- If a form of Christianity with the entire Jewish influence eliminated was formed, would an effort to eliminate the pagan influences also be undertaken to leave the 'purest' teachings of Jesus untouched?

MS
8/27/10 10:46 PM
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the rooster
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zealot: rooster, Im just pointing out the futility of judaism mixing with christianity.

me: z, not offense bro, I love you but that's just a stupid statement. Christianity IS judaism. Paul said we are a wild branch grafted in! The founder of Christianity is Jewish, a Son of David, a Son of Abraham. The authors of the entire bible...Jews. The context...Jewish.

I mean that's just a ridiculous statement.

zealot: Paul himself desired gentiles to be free of the OT,

me: "free of the OT"?!!? Zealot, this is just flat out wrong. Jesus and the apostles preached Jesus FROM THE OT before there was a NT. He said, "search the scriptuers (the OT) it is THEY THAT TESTIFY OF ME!"

The bible said that starting at the Law and the Prophets he showed them how He must suffer, die and be buried.

what you are saying makes zero sense.

you: imo. Rather the cultural, dogmatic, legalism and absurdity of jewish law. I could go on and on about commandments in the OT that are on par with the 10 commandments in the jewish mind. I am becoming less and less convinced that the OT is really a useful document in the practice of christian life, yet many christians continue to pick and choose what they want out of the OT to be more 'biblical'

me: !?!? You are taking away the very foundation of Christianity. It has no reference without the OT. Jewish law was given by God to and through the Jews and Jesus WAS A FAITHFUL JEW.

What you are saying is contextualess.
8/27/10 10:50 PM
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the rooster
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ms: 3- The picking and choosing from the OT has often been one of my main complaints about Christians. Either Jesus liberated you from the ENTIRE Covenant of Judaism, or HE added more to it, those are the options. If its liberated from the former, then why do half the things Christians do? They are hang ups from Judaism.

me: not, there is another option. That Jesus fufilled the Law. There is no more need for oblations, the High Priest, the Temple, the temple laws, etc. because when Jesus was sacrificed, He fufilled the type and shadow of the oblations.

He also fufilled the Law, doing what man could not do...live a perfect life. (which made Him a perfect sacrifice).

But it's not picking a choosing. The ritualistic law is fufilled, but the moral law remains.

ms: 4- If a form of Christianity with the entire Jewish influence eliminated was formed, would an effort to eliminate the pagan influences also be undertaken to leave the 'purest' teachings of Jesus untouched?

me: ? there is no Christianity without the jewish influence, and attempts like zealot are talking about were undertaken by anti semites from the hellenized world who wanted a more high brow, philsophical expression of Christianity. It's incorrect. Christianity is a jewish religion in which gentiles are included and cannot be understood outside of that.
8/27/10 10:56 PM
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martial_shadow
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dude- if Christianity is a Jewish religion, get circumcised, eat kosher, pray 3 times a day and celebrate new year when I do (this year Sept 30). Judaism does not recognize that some Laws are finished and others are not. Instead of offering 3 Temple sacrifices, we pray 3 times a day (but this is valid since King Solomen said prayer equated with sacrifice). So the law is not suspended, simply modified for our times.

MS
8/27/10 11:33 PM
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martial_shadow
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Just found out about Marcion of Sinope. Apparently this goes back to the earliest days of Christianity. intersting.
8/28/10 9:43 AM
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the rooster
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ms: dude- if Christianity is a Jewish religion, get circumcised, eat kosher, pray 3 times a day and celebrate new year when I do (this year Sept 30).

me: Dude, I did. But the *new* covenant says that our circumcision IS OF THE HEART! We must cut away the flesh (carnal) of our inner man!

Being Kosher is now separating ourselves by living holy, by not touching unclean things (sin) etc.

The letter of the law and the spirit of the law are fufilled in Christ. We are the spiritual seed of Abraham because of the new covenant.

Certainly Jews or gentiles can get circumcised (physically, I was), and keep kosher, and celebrate the festivals but those things *don't save us*.

They instead point to Messiah.

So study and celebrate passover, eat kosher, etc if you understand it points to our spiritual deliverance and separation in Messiah.

you: Judaism does not recognize that some Laws are finished and others are not. Instead of offering 3 Temple sacrifices, we pray 3 times a day (but this is valid since King Solomen said prayer equated with sacrifice). So the law is not suspended, simply modified for our times.

me: baloney. You cannot take away temple sacrfice, and the entire system and pretend Solomon modified it through prayer. Sacrifice IS prayer. Prayer and sacrifice walked hand in hand in the garden, existed prior to Solomon and after.

Why was the temple rebuilt and sacrifices resumed when it "didn't have to be".

C'mon MS.


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