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HolyGround >> the judaization of Christianity


8/28/10 10:17 AM
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Ridgeback
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 The Church year does actually start September 30 just like sunset marks the beginning of the next day, at least in Orthodoxy anyway.  The EO Church has more Jewish elements than any other, but isn't trying to be Jewish in any particular way.  Its just what you would expect from a tradition started by Jews.
8/28/10 12:06 PM
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martial_shadow
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Rooster- the people asked for a King and the people asked for a place to interact iwth G-d. G-d said build Me a home in Jerusalem. In the original description of the place, it was an empty altar. That was it. All the rest was for the people.

Pre-Covenant, prayer was superior to sacrifice. Post-Covenant, they were rendered equal by King Solomen.

You can not believe that Jews have 2 ranks for the commandments but tons of literature has been written about this. There are entire debates in the Talmud about which laws to violate in order to save a life. The only ones you don't violate are idolatry and denying G-d- EVERYTHING else you are allowed to violate to save a life. The ancestors had only 2 rankings; things you never violated and things you only violated when the situation deemed it neccessary. Lev 18:5 Ye shall therefore keep My statutes, and Mine ordinances, which if a man do, he shall live by them: I am HaShem. This being an important division in the law- we keep them to live. Therefore, what can be violated TO REMAIN ALIVE. Everything except idolatry and denial of G-d. Everything else was secondary and subservient to these two ideas.
8/28/10 2:28 PM
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the rooster
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MS: Rooster- the people asked for a King and the people asked for a place to interact iwth G-d. G-d said build Me a home in Jerusalem. In the original description of the place, it was an empty altar. That was it. All the rest was for the people.

me: of course it was for the people. But it was because of the efficaciousness of the atonements for the people and the sins of the people.

Sacrifice began with God covering Adam and Eve with the skins of animals (and satisfying His judgement that sin brings death while allowing a *substitutionary death* that His love and mercy might be made manifest), as their own efforts (fig leaves) would never do as a covering for their sin/shame.

And one by one, the righteous; from Abel to Noah to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, etc to the times of Jesus continued the practive instituted pre passover, at passover, in the wilderness in the tabernacle, through temple worship. To dismiss thousands of years of obedience to the Mosaic covenant pre and post solomon makes no sense.

And if it bothers you that Jesus "modified" the OT, how is it that Solomon isn't also rejected. Especially when he ended up backslid, married to pagans and living an evil life for a portion of his kingship!?!?

you: Pre-Covenant, prayer was superior to sacrifice. Post-Covenant, they were rendered equal by King Solomen.

me: great, *equal*! Although I would argue that sacrifice is a form of prayer. That being said, how can temple sacrifice now be considered basically eliminated because prayer is equal. Does that mean if prayer was eliminated and the temple was rebuilt it would be ok because temple sacrifice was equal to prayer???

This makes no sense. Often their were special prayers and covenants ratified, grace dispensated, etc. during sacrifice.

Elijah basically destroys the Balaam priesthood by virtue of his prayer *during* sacrifice.

I'm telling you right now, the temple will be rebuilt and the sacrificial system will be restored as has been prophesied both in the "old" and "new" covenants.

Guarantee you and their is tons of literature by more orthodox Jews who completely disagree with you and your view of temple sacrifice.

you: You can not believe that Jews have 2 ranks for the commandments but tons of literature has been written about this. There are entire debates in the Talmud about which laws to violate in order to save a life. The only ones you don't violate are idolatry and denying G-d- EVERYTHING else you are allowed to violate to save a life. The ancestors had only 2 rankings; things you never violated and things you only violated when the situation deemed it neccessary. Lev 18:5 Ye shall therefore keep My statutes, and Mine ordinances, which if a man do, he shall live by them: I am HaShem. This being an important division in the law- we keep them to live. Therefore, what can be violated TO REMAIN ALIVE. Everything except idolatry and denial of G-d. Everything else was secondary and subservient to these two ideas.

me: that's fine. I'm not sure in Torah where it says that but so what? Are you saying you cannot sacrifice anymore to save a life?

8/28/10 2:36 PM
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the rooster
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Bottom line MS, is that Christianity is a Jewish expression that finds its roots in the Law and the Prophets. It was evangelical in that gentiles were allowed into this Jewish Messianic expression without having to become a Jew first (although elements were in place...like baptism for instance which were similar to the gentile/Jordan mikvah's that gentiles did when converting to Judaism). They were not allowed to be idol worshippers, and they had to flee sexual immorality and refrain from sexual sins. That was enough to indicate their "candidacy" for conversion.

Jesus told the apostles to "go ye therefore and *teach* all nations, baptizing them IN THE NAME..."

That was after the resurrection and after Jesus expounded how all things He did had to be done to fufil the scriptures (OT). He walked them through the Law and Prophets, to show how Messiah must suffer, and die for the atonment of the people.

So they were to teach the Jews how Jesus fufilled the prophecies and for the gentiles, they were to also be taught how He is Messiah for everyone and they were supposed to be rooted in the revelation of the OT (though not convert first to Judaism).

Jews that converted were certainly allowed to practice Judaism (Paul is found at the temple, etc.) realizing those things didnt "save them" but were all foundational to understanding Messiah.

How can one understand the work of Messiah on the cross without understanding Passover and Moses the Deliverer!?!?

Anyway, my point is that Christianity, true biblical Christianity is Jewish and the hellenization of the church has really been a disservice to understanding both the value, power, virtue, worth of the Law and the Prophets, as well as not understanding Christianity (and embracing hellinized philsophies like the "Trinity" which is foreign to Jews, foreign to Jesus and the 1st generation of Jewish Christians who didn't express a 3 in 1 person to Y-h.

8/28/10 3:55 PM
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martial_shadow
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just ont he topic of prayer- I'm talking specifically about the 3 daily prayer services, not prayers for grace or holidays. Those existed since the times of Moses, the 3 prayer services were instituted in the Babylonian times. Thisis an important distinction. If we had the Messianic age Temple 3.0 would be built and thanksgiving sacrifices would begin (no guilt sacrifices would be neccessary) other prayers would still be in order.
8/28/10 4:12 PM
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Lahi
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MS, how do Jews who are Biblical literalists fit the Sabbath into their understanding of the law, since it was given in perfection and seems to be pre-everything as far as the law goes? Sabbath keeping is one area where Seventh-day Adventists make more sense to me than non-Sabbath keeping literalist Christians.
8/28/10 4:18 PM
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Lahi
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I should say Sabbath keeping Christians in general.
8/28/10 5:01 PM
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toelocku
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'the authors of the entire bibl...jews'

Job was most likely preflood and prejew def....just to be tech. correct.

also to the 'jews' here who tell others to keep the law(in there understanding ofit), and don't themselves AT ALL, is something you should refrain to do on a public forum. Just sayin...

the whole Ot good and evil is about the perfecting of the sons of God. Jesus being our perfect example.
8/28/10 6:05 PM
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martial_shadow
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Lahi- while the Sabbath started pre-Covenant, it was reinforced with the Covenant (1 of the 10 Commandments)

Toelocku- that sorta points out the same level of obsurdity of the whole pick and choose caus eI'm libertaed no? Either you are liberated from the Covenant or your not, but picking and choosing is much more what non-orthodox Jews do with the Covenant.
8/28/10 7:06 PM
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zealot66
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 Rooster : Anyway, my point is that Christianity, true biblical Christianity is Jewish and the hellenization of the church has really been a disservice to understanding both the value, power, virtue, worth of the Law and the Prophets, as well as not understanding Christianity (and embracing hellinized philsophies like the "Trinity" which is foreign to Jews, foreign to Jesus and the 1st generation of Jewish Christians who didn't express a 3 in 1 person to Y-h. 

I think without the 'hellenization' of christianity, it would have amounted to a small mitigated dead sect of Judaism. You can dream all you want about True Biblical Christianity. Christianity survived because of its spread to the hellenic world and its delusional to think that the world would have taken to a judaic sect. 

8/28/10 8:10 PM
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Ridgeback
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Most of this debate is beside the point.  What Evangelicals are doing is going to the past to fill the void in their empty traditions.  They are cherry picking the past, however, so they don't really care about remaining faithful to Judaism or the Bible or anything else besides their own need for a sense of fulfillment.  This fad will also pass soon enough like every other Evangelical fad does.  
8/28/10 8:21 PM
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the rooster
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ms: just ont he topic of prayer- I'm talking specifically about the 3 daily prayer services, not prayers for grace or holidays. Those existed since the times of Moses, the 3 prayer services were instituted in the Babylonian times. Thisis an important distinction. If we had the Messianic age Temple 3.0 would be built and thanksgiving sacrifices would begin (no guilt sacrifices would be neccessary) other prayers would still be in order.

me: bet ya. Bet ya atonement sacrifices will be done.

And again, temple sacrifice is integral to judaism. Solomon didn't "modify" the mosaic temple sacrifice requirements.
8/28/10 8:23 PM
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the rooster
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toe:
Job was most likely preflood and prejew def....just to be tech. correct.

me: you are good. I stand corrected. Probably "semitic" but yep I guess "Jews" was a term given to those "judeans".

toe: also to the 'jews' here who tell others to keep the law(in there understanding ofit), and don't themselves AT ALL, is something you should refrain to do on a public forum. Just sayin...

me: man, that's a good point. C'mon MS, you don't keep the law and you dont even believe big chunks are true.

8/28/10 8:28 PM
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the rooster
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zealot: I think without the 'hellenization' of christianity, it would have amounted to a small mitigated dead sect of Judaism. You can dream all you want about True Biblical Christianity. Christianity survived because of its spread to the hellenic world and its delusional to think that the world would have taken to a judaic sect.

me: really? There Judaism is one of the largest religions in the world, what do you mean it wouldn't have taken off?? It did. 3,000 Jews converted on the day of Pentecost? Until Paul went to the gentiles, it was a judaic sect that was spreading like wild fire.

I am not against the inclusiveness and grafting in of the gentiles, I am not for gentiles becoming Jews to be saved before they are saved (nor am I against Jews practicing their cultural and religious traditions as Christians).

I'm just saying that Christianity is a Jewish religion. And stripping off some of the philsophical musings that came much later will help give us a much better understanding of the religion spread by the Jewish disciples.


ridge: Most of this debate is beside the point. What Evangelicals are doing is going to the past to fill the void in their empty traditions.

me: that's a pretty monolithic judgement.

you: They are cherry picking the past, however, so they don't really care about remaining faithful to Judaism or the Bible or anything else besides their own need for a sense of fulfillment. This fad will also pass soon enough like every other Evangelical fad does.

me: again, that's a pretty monolithic judgement on the entirety of people going back to the "jewishness" of Christianity. One that I think is frankly out of touch. I know when I'm searching for the hebrew context of a holiday, or word it's to gain better understanding of what was being taught.

That's silly to just condemn everyone as if you know.
8/28/10 8:28 PM
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the rooster
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zealot: I think without the 'hellenization' of christianity, it would have amounted to a small mitigated dead sect of Judaism. You can dream all you want about True Biblical Christianity. Christianity survived because of its spread to the hellenic world and its delusional to think that the world would have taken to a judaic sect.

me: really? There Judaism is one of the largest religions in the world, what do you mean it wouldn't have taken off?? It did. 3,000 Jews converted on the day of Pentecost? Until Paul went to the gentiles, it was a judaic sect that was spreading like wild fire.

I am not against the inclusiveness and grafting in of the gentiles, I am not for gentiles becoming Jews to be saved before they are saved (nor am I against Jews practicing their cultural and religious traditions as Christians).

I'm just saying that Christianity is a Jewish religion. And stripping off some of the philsophical musings that came much later will help give us a much better understanding of the religion spread by the Jewish disciples.


ridge: Most of this debate is beside the point. What Evangelicals are doing is going to the past to fill the void in their empty traditions.

me: that's a pretty monolithic judgement.

you: They are cherry picking the past, however, so they don't really care about remaining faithful to Judaism or the Bible or anything else besides their own need for a sense of fulfillment. This fad will also pass soon enough like every other Evangelical fad does.

me: again, that's a pretty monolithic judgement on the entirety of people going back to the "jewishness" of Christianity. One that I think is frankly out of touch. I know when I'm searching for the hebrew context of a holiday, or word it's to gain better understanding of what was being taught.

That's silly to just condemn everyone as if you know.
8/29/10 12:38 AM
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Ridgeback
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 Rooster,

I was raised in those circles so yes I do know about the fads.  You are way out of your league.  The NT was penned in Greek, i.e. it starts are a Hellenized form of Judaism.  The Apostles and early Christians primarily used the Greek version of the OT.  To try to go back 20 centuries later and recreate a psuedo-Jewishness just to get around the issue of Trinitarian ecclesiology and simply pathetic.  At least the Evangelicals are actually searching for deeper experience rather than historical justification for a tradition that was invented a few years ago.
8/29/10 12:36 PM
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Grakman
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It is interesting that the three monotheistic 'Abrahamic' faiths all consider themselves rooted in the same ancient religion but are so, so vastly different from one another.  And of course, the two outside one's own particular brand of monotheism are infidels.


8/29/10 1:27 PM
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zealot66
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Rooster: me: really? There Judaism is one of the largest religions in the world, what do you mean it wouldn't have taken off?? It did. 3,000 Jews converted on the day of Pentecost? Until Paul went to the gentiles, it was a judaic sect that was spreading like wild fire.

Me :Are you sure it wasnt 3001 ? Without Paul deciding to part with Peter and the church in jerusalem that was still clinging to the temple and imposing jewish rituals on converts, it would have died in jerusalem especially after the destruction of the temple and the passing of the apostles.

Rooster :I am not against the inclusiveness and grafting in of the gentiles, I am not for gentiles becoming Jews to be saved before they are saved (nor am I against Jews practicing their cultural and religious traditions as Christians). 

Me: I just want to barf when I hear that kind of thought process. 'Inclusiveness' into what you are still considering a jewish offshoot. Paul declared there is NO MORE JEW OR GREEK.

Rooster :I'm just saying that Christianity is a Jewish religion. And stripping off some of the philsophical musings that came much later will help give us a much better understanding of the religion spread by the Jewish disciples.

Me: This statement ties into your own denominations Jesus Only theory. It is set as a de facto defense mechanism to re write history back to the point where you find 'the split' or where christianity went wrong. For all intents and purposes, Paul is our instructor on christian theology. We are left with his writings and the church fathers were not Jewish Disciples. Christianity seperated from Judaism and the Jerusalem church and that crowd withered, became impoverished and ineffective then vanished after the destruction of the temple. Did it ever occur to you that perhaps that what God intended ?







 For that matter, the Septuagint was translated for the Hellenic world. The apparently saw that judaism needed to be hellenized at least in language to survive and spread. I remember in the 80-90's that messianic judaism was a real barn burner and popularized then as well. There is no doubt that understanding judaism helps in understanding christianity but the hellenization of christianity or rather 'gentiling' christianity saved it from being and obscure cult. 
Your perpetual going back to the OT and your fancy for the 'Jews' is simply tied to your Jesus Only movement. 
8/29/10 2:52 PM
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toelocku
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MS-

First of all the covenant was an 'AGE LASTING' covenant NOT AN 'ETERNAL' one. Olam/aion=an 'AGE OR TIME PERIOD'. He flatout tells us HE's going to make a new one when the reformer comes(JESUS CHRIST). The law is BEING fulfilled in Christ, its ALL about HIm perfectin YOU.

The covenant was also dependant on the 'sons of Aberaham' DOING WHAT GOD SAID. The whole OT shows you 'Jews' are a stiffneck, disobidient, backsliddin people (see the prophet Isiah/Jer.for details), as His true people Christians are today(myself included).

Being 'jewish' is about bein a son of faithful Aberhamor spiritually Christ, not about being physically born of his physical line.

Newsflash to you guys here YOU ARE NOT OF THE PHYSICAL LINE OF ABERAHAM EITHER! This physical line has been destroyed by God in the captivity through intermarriage with goyim. YOur lines are tainted with 'uncleaness' therefore void says the Law. Its laughable to say otherwise.

God chose Aberaham because he was faithful...thats all it takes:)

Hear O Israel the Lord our God is ONE Lord Jesus Christ(Gods annointed saves us).

8/29/10 2:53 PM
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toelocku
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sorry for the spelling errors...btw.
8/29/10 3:51 PM
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zealot66
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Edited: 08/29/10 3:52 PM
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 Hey toelock, that kind of borders on a Personal attack of his jewishness. This isnt an anti jewish thread. Im discussing Christians pretending to be 'jewish' and therefore more 'biblical'. I dont have any animosity towards jews or judaism on a personal level. Im trying to point out the insanity and illogical thinking patterns of evangelicals. I support Israel in a geopolitical sense and as I said only pointing out problems with Christianity, not Jews or Judaism and dont want to start ranting on jews.
8/29/10 5:14 PM
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martial_shadow
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Wow- see I was an asshole this last week cause I was getting 2-4 hours of sleep a night, living on crap, not training and working on my thesis (submitting tonight, its done!) What's your excuse? Anyway, the Covenant clearly indicates that it is not submission to G-d (which G-d never wanted) but the blood line of Abraham that would be the Nation. This is why the book of Ruth had to be included, otherwise it would impossible for people to come in. Entire portions of Lev and Deut detail bloodlines.
8/29/10 5:37 PM
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Lahi
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Thanks MS, that makes sense on the Sabbath.
8/30/10 3:09 PM
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the rooster
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ridge: I was raised in those circles so yes I do know about the fads.

me: but still, a very monolithic judgement and very unfair.

you: You are way out of your league. The NT was penned in Greek, i.e. it starts are a Hellenized form of Judaism.

me: ok, fair enough although you'd have to say that what survived was penned in Greek and that certainly there is no doubt that much was written in Greek. But certainly most now believe that Matthew was originally penned in Hebrew.

you: The Apostles and early Christians primarily used the Greek version of the OT. To try to go back 20 centuries later and recreate a psuedo-Jewishness just to get around the issue of Trinitarian ecclesiology and simply pathetic.

me: But in doing so, the Jews still retained their "Jewishness". Look at the modern diaspora and despite difference from Ethiopian Jews, to Russian Jews, to Semitic Jews etc there is still a very strong "Jewish" commonality. I'm sure the Jesus and the Jews spoke and wrote in Hebrew, Aramic and Greek and certainly Jesus wasn't "hellenized" nor were the apostles. Remember when Peter has his vision of the food on the table cloth? He affirms his "jewishness" and balks at eating unclean food. He also later is rebuked by Paul for reverting back to requiring a gentile to become a jew, for separating during meals and worship etc.

It's silly to act as if the entirety of the scriptures shouldn't be viewed in their "Jewish" context. Not to make us think that we can earn our salvation by following the law, or that we have to be kosher, etc. Instead, it gives us great insight to meanings, context, culture, etc.

And I'm not trying to "get around trinitarian theology". It's made up. It's not biblical. None of the some 6 various evolutions of trinity are biblical. They are post apostolic philosophical/pagan interpretations of the scriptures. God is One. That the bible declares. God is not 3 "persons".


you: At least the Evangelicals are actually searching for deeper experience rather than historical justification for a tradition that was invented a few years ago.

me: now you are out of your league and show a real theological/historical ignorance. The "Oneness" of God is PRE TRINITARIAN. Check out Tertullian's own admission of such when he was *introducing* his made up term and theology to Greeks and Romans who were rejecting it for being polytheistic.

A few years...that's funny.
8/30/10 3:17 PM
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CJJScout
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Ridge isn't going to like this, but I think this is funny. Semi-relevant stuff starts at 2:15.

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