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HolyGround >> the judaization of Christianity


8/30/10 3:42 PM
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the rooster
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z: Are you sure it wasnt 3001 ?

me: ? there were some 3k and another 5k *Jews* who were converted.

you: Without Paul deciding to part with Peter and the church in jerusalem that was still clinging to the temple and imposing jewish rituals on converts, it would have died in jerusalem especially after the destruction of the temple and the passing of the apostles.

me: He didn't "part". He was commissioned to be the Apostle of the gentiles. It wasn't 2 different churches.

you: I just want to barf when I hear that kind of thought process. 'Inclusiveness' into what you are still considering a jewish offshoot. Paul declared there is NO MORE JEW OR GREEK.

me:

Paul also declared that we are "graffed" in as a wild branch.

Rom 11:1 ¶ I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, [of] the tribe of Benjamin.

Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

Rom 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

Rom 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.

Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, [take heed] lest he also spare not thee.

Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in [his] goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural [branches], be graffed into their own olive tree?

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

yes, there is no Gentile or Jew. I mean, yes practically in our own eyes, there is men, women, Jew, gentile, but spiritually we are all his children.


Me: This statement ties into your own denominations Jesus Only theory.

me: Zealot, you are so close minded that you can't see what you are trying to do. Christianity is fundamentally a Jewish religion. The OT is foundational. The NT is about Jew, written by Jews, with the first church started by Jews. Yes, of course I'm "Jesus Only". Or even better, "Jesus Everything". My church is not "messianic", and the conversation about the Jewishness and God's eternal Oneness vs the philsophical made up Trinity view is a separate conversation.

you: It is set as a de facto defense mechanism to re write history back to the point where you find 'the split' or where christianity went wrong.

me: ? To "re write". History is written by the "winners" and certainly the monstrous church/state bastardization of what the apostles did and taught isn't the history of the church. The history of strict biblical monotheism was the majority view in the post apostolic age, was persecuted throughout while the theocracy/state grew and abused it's power, and has re-emerged and is a large movement. But again, saying that is like dismissing the reformation because it's biblical interpreations are clouded as attempts to "rewrite history".

you: For all intents and purposes, Paul is our instructor on christian theology.

me: wrong, wrong, wrong! If that's the case throw away the entire bible but the epistles. This is ridiculous. Maybe when you start whiting out part of the bible (creation, patriarchs, the flood, etc.) it makes you start whiting out the rest.

you: We are left with his writings and the church fathers were not Jewish Disciples.

me: so what (and of course, some were). The catholic church fathers give us some historical insights but they were not inspired as the writers of the NT. That's why we don't consolidate their writings, and add them to the bible. they are not like the Mormons Covenants and Doctrines books, or the Muslims Hadith writings that supplement the Koran. The bible can stand on it's own. In fact, here you are appealing to the context of the church fathers while wanting to dismiss the historical constext of Judaism.

you; Christianity seperated from Judaism and the Jerusalem church and that crowd withered, became impoverished and ineffective then vanished after the destruction of the temple. Did it ever occur to you that perhaps that what God intended ?

you: For that matter, the Septuagint was translated for the Hellenic world. The apparently saw that judaism needed to be hellenized at least in language to survive and spread.

me: ok, IN LANGUAGE AT LEAST. Again, making cultural allowences doesn't diminish the Jewishness.

you:I remember in the 80-90's that messianic judaism was a real barn burner and popularized then as well. There is no doubt that understanding judaism helps in understanding christianity

me: that was my main point...

you: ....but the hellenization of christianity or rather 'gentiling' christianity saved it from being and obscure cult.

me: ok, maybe we are saying some of the same things. Of course the goal was to spread to all the gentile world (matthew 28:19) and to not make them Mosaic Covenantal Jews.

you: Your perpetual going back to the OT and your fancy for the 'Jews' is simply tied to your Jesus Only movement.

me: um...ok. I stand indicted. I'm guilty of acknowledging the inspiration of the OT and it's relevance to the NT and for rejecting a 3 in one persons model of the godhead.

8/30/10 3:43 PM
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Ridgeback
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CJJScout - 
 
var so = new SWFObject("http://www.youtube.com/v/s_MLUuNKjZU?fs=1&hl=en_US", "postVideo-31296165-Flash", "425", "355", "9.0.28", "##000"); so.addParam("allowScriptAccess", "samedomain"); so.addParam("allowNetworking", "internal"); so.addParam("wmode", "transparent"); so.write("postVideo-31296165"); Ridge isn't going to like this, but I think this is funny. Semi-relevant stuff starts at 2:15.

 I don't get why you would write that I wouldn't like it.
8/30/10 3:43 PM
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the rooster
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toe: First of all the covenant was an 'AGE LASTING' covenant NOT AN 'ETERNAL' one. Olam/aion=an 'AGE OR TIME PERIOD'. He flatout tells us HE's going to make a new one when the reformer comes(JESUS CHRIST). The law is BEING fulfilled in Christ, its ALL about HIm perfectin YOU.

The covenant was also dependant on the 'sons of Aberaham' DOING WHAT GOD SAID. The whole OT shows you 'Jews' are a stiffneck, disobidient, backsliddin people (see the prophet Isiah/Jer.for details), as His true people Christians are today(myself included).

Being 'jewish' is about bein a son of faithful Aberhamor spiritually Christ, not about being physically born of his physical line.

Newsflash to you guys here YOU ARE NOT OF THE PHYSICAL LINE OF ABERAHAM EITHER! This physical line has been destroyed by God in the captivity through intermarriage with goyim. YOur lines are tainted with 'uncleaness' therefore void says the Law. Its laughable to say otherwise.

God chose Aberaham because he was faithful...thats all it takes:)

Hear O Israel the Lord our God is ONE Lord Jesus Christ(Gods annointed saves us).

me: good post.
8/30/10 3:48 PM
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the rooster
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z: Hey toelock, that kind of borders on a Personal attack of his jewishness.


me: ?? and anti Christian? And anti himself? He throws all Jews and gentiles into the same boat, which is what the old and NT both confirm. We are all unrighteous.

"...as His true people Christians are today(myself included).

and it's Paul who says (remember, the guy you said is the one to primarily listen to):

Being 'jewish' is about bein a son of faithful Aberhamor spiritually Christ, not about being physically born of his physical line.

you; This isnt an anti jewish thread. Im discussing Christians pretending to be 'jewish' and therefore more 'biblical'. I dont have any animosity towards jews or judaism on a personal level. Im trying to point out the insanity and illogical thinking patterns of evangelicals.

me: yes, sigh, you are always trying to poitn out the insanity and illogical thinking patterns of evangelicals. Not anti jewish but maybe consistently anti evangelical? Your "nuanced" "complex" high brow theology doesn't well tolerate the "common people" ;-)

you: I support Israel in a geopolitical sense and as I said only pointing out problems with Christianity, not Jews or Judaism and dont want to start ranting on jews.

me: I don't think anyone is. Paul slapped the Jews hand while reminding everyone that he was a "jew of jews". So did Jesus. but the gentiles also got whacked. It's the nature of proving both jew and gentile are under the curse of sin.
8/30/10 4:51 PM
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toelocku
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zealot66 -  Hey toelock, that kind of borders on a Personal attack of his jewishness. This isnt an anti jewish thread. Im discussing Christians pretending to be 'jewish' and therefore more 'biblical'. I dont have any animosity towards jews or judaism on a personal level. Im trying to point out the insanity and illogical thinking patterns of evangelicals. I support Israel in a geopolitical sense and as I said only pointing out problems with Christianity, not Jews or Judaism and dont want to start ranting on jews.

the pretend Christians i agree are decieved, but so are the 'jews' who think being a physical decendant of Aberaham makes them 'ok' or 'chosen' of God.

Circumcision is of the heart not the foreskin.
8/30/10 5:03 PM
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toelocku
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martial_shadow - Wow- see I was an asshole this last week cause I was getting 2-4 hours of sleep a night, living on crap, not training and working on my thesis (submitting tonight, its done!) What's your excuse? Anyway, the Covenant clearly indicates that it is not submission to G-d (which G-d never wanted) but the blood line of Abraham that would be the Nation. This is why the book of Ruth had to be included, otherwise it would impossible for people to come in. Entire portions of Lev and Deut detail bloodlines.


Mat 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
Mat 5:12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great [is] your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

if bloodlines are soimportant what about Aberahams? or eliazars, noah, enoch, adam, seth,or converts in general...or those compeled to celebrate the last great day of the feast? are they not part of the nation?

Ruth was mobite women...
8/30/10 5:33 PM
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zealot66
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Edited: 08/30/10 5:40 PM
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 Im going to cut and past a commentary on Galatians because it really codifies what Im trying to say. 

15Brothers, let me take an example from everyday life. Just as no one can set aside or add to a human covenant that has been duly established, so it is in this case. 16The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say "and to seeds," meaning many people, but "and to your seed,"g]" style="font-size: 0.75em; line-height: 0.5em; ">[g] meaning one person, who is Christ. 17What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise.18For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on a promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise.

 19What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was put into effect through angels by a mediator.20A mediator, however, does not represent just one party; but God is one.

 21Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. 22But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.

 23Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. 24So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christh]" style="font-size: 0.75em; line-height: 0.5em; ">[h] that we might be justified by faith. 25Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.

   
8/30/10 5:34 PM
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zealot66
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Edited: 08/30/10 5:37 PM
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  8Formerly, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those who by nature are not gods. 9But now that you know God—or rather are known by God—how is it that you are turning back to those weak and miserable principles? Do you wish to be enslaved by them all over again? 10You are observing special days and months and seasons and years! 11I fear for you, that somehow I have wasted my efforts on you.

 12I plead with you, brothers, become like me, for I became like you. You have done me no wrong. 13As you know, it was because of an illness that I first preached the gospel to you. 14Even though my illness was a trial to you, you did not treat me with contempt or scorn. Instead, you welcomed me as if I were an angel of God, as if I were Christ Jesus himself. 15What has happened to all your joy? I can testify that, if you could have done so, you would have torn out your eyes and given them to me. 16Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth?

 17Those people are zealous to win you over, but for no good. What they want is to alienate you from us, so that you may be zealous for them. 18It is fine to be zealous, provided the purpose is good, and to be so always and not just when I am with you. 19My dear children, for whom I am again in the pains of childbirth until Christ is formed in you, 20how I wish I could be with you now and change my tone, because I am perplexed about you!

   
8/30/10 5:42 PM
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zealot66
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 I think Paul is directly warning Christians to abandon trying to replicate and hold up the observances of the OT and the Law and Jewish culture. I think its plain as day that Evangelicals reaching into Judaism to spice up their christianity is directly against the teachings of Paul
8/30/10 6:48 PM
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Ridgeback
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zealot66 -  I think Paul is directly warning Christians to abandon trying to replicate and hold up the observances of the OT and the Law and Jewish culture. I think its plain as day that Evangelicals reaching into Judaism to spice up their christianity is directly against the teachings of Paul

 Yeah, but St. Paul was so 90's.
8/30/10 7:01 PM
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the rooster
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zealot, you are being extreme. You are saying that understanding the "jewishness" of the bible, it's roots, its festivals etc. is equivalent to saying that you are saved by the law, that you can fufil the law, that you have to observe the mosaic law as it was given in the OT to be saved.

Who is saying that?!!?
8/30/10 8:56 PM
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Ridgeback
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the rooster - zealot, you are being extreme. You are saying that understanding the "jewishness" of the bible, it's roots, its festivals etc. is equivalent to saying that you are saved by the law, that you can fufil the law, that you have to observe the mosaic law as it was given in the OT to be saved.

Who is saying that?!!?

 I actually agree with this.  Evangelicals aren't giving up sola fide or anything.  They are looking for something to fill the void just like the emergent church does by cherry picking ancient liturgies and snippets of church fathers.  I live in the mecca of Evangelicalism and the whole Jewish tourism movement is a fad here.  A few years back it was the purpose driven life.  This fad too, shall pass.
8/30/10 9:20 PM
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zealot66
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 I'm being Extreme ? Coming from the king of extreme thats funny. You have spent hundreds of hours trying to prove something that remained hidden from the church for 1800 years without any success. Your views fall into the extreme edges of christendom and regarding salvation, you cant even confess that you believe we are worshiping a false god and are polytheists.

I point out another absurdity from the modern carnival of Evangelical Christianity and back it up with reason and scripture trying to point out how unfamiliar christians are about their own faith and practice and Im Extreme. Jesus and Paul used the OT for sure usually to point out its ending and unusefulness and the coming of a new kingdom and teaching that washes away the need to adhere or immitate Judaismas a means of being more biblical.  I mean does your wife offer doves to your pastor everytime she has her period ? The OT is full of absudities. IMO, upon a critical look, the OT should only serve to confuse the thinking christian and is most often used to mock Evangelials who hold it in such high regard. You say I pick and choose what stories to believe, I think you pick and choose what parts of the OT you decide are applicable to Christianity and 'graft' them together to get coherence out of schizophrenic reasoning. I think the place you are in is called 'cognitive dissonance'.

BTW, none of this is a personal attack. We are arguing over ideas and theology as usual.
8/30/10 9:36 PM
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martial_shadow
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Uh- quoting NT stuff to a Jew is like me quoting the Quran to you. It becomes a "oh that's nice but had nothing to do with me." arguement.

Abraham's bloodline is documented 20 generations back to Adam in Genesis. From then onward through to the Greeks, the entire bloodline of the Jewish people is well documented. Recall that Cohanim till this day share a male ancestor who's markers are rarely found in the general public (IIRC, 70% of Cohanim have the markers while only 4% of the general pop does- thus we know at some point cohanim all descended from one male line).

I mentioned Ruth in my earlier post. The Book of Ruth had to be in the Bible to show that people could convert in. At which point, there children are Jews. Hey, even Moses' wife Tzipporah wasn't Jewish but she converted (and Jethro convertd many of his people to Judaism- so clearly a precedent for spiritual conversion exists).

As for the righteous gentiles (bnei noach), Judaism allows them both Heaven and if you believe in the Messianic era, ressurection into it. Judaism doesn't deny righteous gentiles much and by comparison asks little of them.

BTW- Judaism is actually not about faith but action. That's why so little time was spent with the dead and the afterlife. The actions we take here are what matter, even faith is irrelevant. In most (but not all) schools of orthodox Judaism, an atheist who volunteers, donates, etc. is worth more than the wisest Biblical scholar who only studies- because he gives nothing to his community and no tikkun olam is brough into the world because of him. That is one of the reasons why even secular Jews are concerned with social justice.

sigh.... what's funny is I remember Rooster a few years ago telling me that bloodlines proved Jesus had to be the Messiah and now you're telling me bloodlines mean nothing.
8/31/10 2:34 AM
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Ridgeback
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zealot66 -  I'm being Extreme ? Coming from the king of extreme thats funny. You have spent hundreds of hours trying to prove something that remained hidden from the church for 1800 years without any success. Your views fall into the extreme edges of christendom and regarding salvation, you cant even confess that you believe we are worshiping a false god and are polytheists.

I point out another absurdity from the modern carnival of Evangelical Christianity and back it up with reason and scripture trying to point out how unfamiliar christians are about their own faith and practice and Im Extreme. Jesus and Paul used the OT for sure usually to point out its ending and unusefulness and the coming of a new kingdom and teaching that washes away the need to adhere or immitate Judaismas a means of being more biblical.  I mean does your wife offer doves to your pastor everytime she has her period ? The OT is full of absudities. IMO, upon a critical look, the OT should only serve to confuse the thinking christian and is most often used to mock Evangelials who hold it in such high regard. You say I pick and choose what stories to believe, I think you pick and choose what parts of the OT you decide are applicable to Christianity and 'graft' them together to get coherence out of schizophrenic reasoning. I think the place you are in is called 'cognitive dissonance'.

BTW, none of this is a personal attack. We are arguing over ideas and theology as usual.

 I agree with this and didn't mean to apply by agreeing with Rooster that I thought you were being extreme.  I don't think the Evangelicals are serious about this new Jewish fad.  I think Rooster has always had more sympathy with OT literalism than the actual teachings of Jesus.  
8/31/10 10:25 AM
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CJJScout
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Ridgeback - 
 I don't get why you would write that I wouldn't like it.

I thought I remembered you saying you weren't a Driscoll fan.
8/31/10 2:34 PM
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toelocku
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martial_shadow - Uh- quoting NT stuff to a Jew is like me quoting the Quran to you. It becomes a "oh that's nice but had nothing to do with me." arguement.

Abraham's bloodline is documented 20 generations back to Adam in Genesis. From then onward through to the Greeks, the entire bloodline of the Jewish people is well documented. Recall that Cohanim till this day share a male ancestor who's markers are rarely found in the general public (IIRC, 70% of Cohanim have the markers while only 4% of the general pop does- thus we know at some point cohanim all descended from one male line).

I mentioned Ruth in my earlier post. The Book of Ruth had to be in the Bible to show that people could convert in. At which point, there children are Jews. Hey, even Moses' wife Tzipporah wasn't Jewish but she converted (and Jethro convertd many of his people to Judaism- so clearly a precedent for spiritual conversion exists).

As for the righteous gentiles (bnei noach), Judaism allows them both Heaven and if you believe in the Messianic era, ressurection into it. Judaism doesn't deny righteous gentiles much and by comparison asks little of them.

BTW- Judaism is actually not about faith but action. That's why so little time was spent with the dead and the afterlife. The actions we take here are what matter, even faith is irrelevant. In most (but not all) schools of orthodox Judaism, an atheist who volunteers, donates, etc. is worth more than the wisest Biblical scholar who only studies- because he gives nothing to his community and no tikkun olam is brough into the world because of him. That is one of the reasons why even secular Jews are concerned with social justice.

sigh.... what's funny is I remember Rooster a few years ago telling me that bloodlines proved Jesus had to be the Messiah and now you're telling me bloodlines mean nothing.


I didn't write that 'for you', I wrote if for my people.

lol@ 70% good luck with that...with 'only the sons of Aaron' being able...its prob. based on bogus science anyway, and would look intoit if i actually cared about such things.


So which is it, physical bloodlines or spiritual conversion that compose the nation? Do you understand what acontradiction is?

Asks little of them? Wow! What an endorsement of your religion...

I agree your religion isn't about faith...we agree:)

I dont speak for rooster but I KNOW physical blood means nothing as all physicallity deduces to thought(the spirit world), and is VAIN/VOID or is 'real and not real' at the same 'time'...this is not a contradictory idea either. Takes the indwelling of the spirit to understand the following verses...

Ecc 1:1 ¶ The words of the Preacher, the son of David, king in Jerusalem.


Ecc 1:2 Vanity of vanities, saith the Preacher, vanity of vanities; all [is] vanity.
8/31/10 6:17 PM
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martial_shadow
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actually the 70% with 6 markers has been one of the most studied phenomena of the Y chromosome because a large segregated population is available for analysis.

Ya, Judaism asks little of goyim since when G-d asked everyone to follow the Bible (Adam-Noah), it didn't quite workout.

Judaism has very little in terms of faith requirements.

People can join the nation of Israel. They will never be Cohanim. These are basic principals from the Bible defined by Moses and Aaron.

Look, we disagree. Let's end this on somewhat friendly terms. I have no personal issue with you or your faith. Do what you need to do to man.
8/31/10 11:14 PM
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the rooster
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you:
I actually agree with this. Evangelicals aren't giving up sola fide or anything. They are looking for something to fill the void just like the emergent church does by cherry picking ancient liturgies and snippets of church fathers. I live in the mecca of Evangelicalism and the whole Jewish tourism movement is a fad here. A few years back it was the purpose driven life. This fad too, shall pass.

me: try as you might, you cannot divorce the "jewishness" out of Christianity.

It is a gospel for all, but it borders on anti semitic to try to pretend away the Jewish influence.

This is dangerous as we know all this replacement theology and this whiting out of the Jewishness of the bible in favor of some pagan/bible marriage is what set fire to the persecution of many of the Jews by "christians".

8/31/10 11:27 PM
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the rooster
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you: I'm being Extreme ?

me: yes, when you equate recognizing the Jewish context to the bible as somehow meaning someone is advocating becoming a Jew or believing that keeping kosher saves you. No one is saying that.

you: Coming from the king of extreme thats funny.

me: yes, but where I'm "extreme" is where I'm right ;-)

you: You have spent hundreds of hours trying to prove something that remained hidden from the church for 1800 years without any success.

me: it wasn't hidden from the church. It was hidden from the church/state religious/political system that was persecuting and driving the church underground. The theo-political system that was instituted and codified by Constantine wasn't the church.

You don't really believe that monstrosity that was taking property, excommunicating and persecuting "heretics" (people who had a different interpretation of the bible) even burning them at the stake was the church of the Prince of Peace?

And certainly the "truth" was held by a minority of people during the OT. The fact that it was "hidden" from the unconverted gentiles didn't make the truth somehow wrong.

you: Your views fall into the extreme edges of christendom and regarding salvation, you cant even confess that you believe we are worshiping a false god and are polytheists.

me: what do you mean I can't? You just said I spent hundreds of hours saying that? The trinitarian docrine as written is polytheistic and a false model of the true God.

I don't know how each person who says "trinitarian" really believes. My dad is catholic but has a more "oneness" model. But he claims to be a trinitarian. A local Assembly of God pastor I am friends with is the same way.

Ridge has a fraternal group of persons and is tritheistic. So each is up to how the individual interprets this false belief.

you: I point out another absurdity from the modern carnival of Evangelical Christianity and back it up with reason and scripture trying to point out how unfamiliar christians are about their own faith and practice and Im Extreme.

me: no you don't. You always criticize evangelicals and it's because you view them as much to low brow for you. If evangelicals are trying to get familiar with their faith, you condemn them as if the apologetics by philosophers who joined the catholic church is the only "history".

you: Jesus and Paul used the OT for sure usually to point out its ending and unusefulness and the coming of a new kingdom and teaching that washes away the need to adhere or immitate Judaismas a means of being more biblical.


me: oh for crying out loud. Jesus said that every dot and tittle would be fufilled. He proved who He was through the OT. HE constantly quoted the OT (to the devil, pharisees, sinners, his apostles, etc.). This is ridiculous z.

you: I mean does your wife offer doves to your pastor everytime she has her period ?

me: of course not. The sacrificial system ENDED with the death of JEsus. It closed all of the temple works that were looking forward to Christ. But that doesn't mean we cannot find Christ in studying the sacrifical system. In styding the altar, the brazen laver, the inside of the tabernacle, the material used to build it, the colors, the shape, etc. All points to Jesus!

wow, your own lack of knowledge about the types and shadows in the OT is stunning bro.

you: The OT is full of absudities.

me: no it's not. Paul said it was OUR SCHOOLMASTER TO BRING US TO CHRIST! Absurd?!!?

you: IMO, upon a critical look, the OT should only serve to confuse the thinking christian and is most often used to mock Evangelials who hold it in such high regard. You say I pick and choose what stories to believe, I think you pick and choose what parts of the OT you decide are applicable to Christianity and 'graft' them together to get coherence out of schizophrenic reasoning. I think the place you are in is called 'cognitive dissonance'.

me: dude, you need to go back and study the OT. Do you know what shape the tabernacle plan was? Do you know what and how repentance (death), the burial (brazen laver), and resurrection (Holy of Holies) is laid out int the taberacle plan. Do you know what the colors to the veil pointed to (do you even know what colors they were) and the implications of the veil tearing when JEsus died?!!?

you: BTW, none of this is a personal attack. We are arguing over ideas and theology as usual.

me: no prob
8/31/10 11:30 PM
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the rooster
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ridge: I think Rooster has always had more sympathy with OT literalism than the actual teachings of Jesus.

me: only because when you read Jesus he had sympathy with OT literalism. He spoke of Adam and Eve, Noah and the flood, the patriarchs, etc ad nauseum.

You act as if they are mutually exclusive. Jesus is the Word of God made flesh. The OT is all about Jesus and that's what He used to prove who He was.

stunning.
9/1/10 2:05 PM
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Ridgeback
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the rooster - ridge: I think Rooster has always had more sympathy with OT literalism than the actual teachings of Jesus.

me: only because when you read Jesus he had sympathy with OT literalism. He spoke of Adam and Eve, Noah and the flood, the patriarchs, etc ad nauseum.

You act as if they are mutually exclusive. Jesus is the Word of God made flesh. The OT is all about Jesus and that's what He used to prove who He was.

stunning.

For people like you it is mutually exclusive.  That is the whole point.
9/1/10 10:07 PM
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jrrrrr
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My 2 cents
Judaism is based on concept of one g-d. The love of g-d and living toward the way g-d wants. This is represented by how one lives their lives according to mitvot and the way one treats other people (Jews and non Jews alike).

While Christianity has similar beliefs, the very understanding of g-d is different. While many (some not so much) of the things that Jesus said was definitely from Judaism, the DOGMA that Christianity developed really differentiates it from Judaism. The concepts of a g-d split into 3 integrated entities; only by believing in Jesus would one have an afterlife, etc.

The whole thing of sacrifice isn't for g-d. G-d does not need sacrifice. Sacrifice is for us as human being needing to give to g-d to show our...gratitude to g-d...

Paul changed the whole concept of how Jesus was perceived. It went from Jesus being a messiah figure for the Jews to being sacrificed for original sins for "all" people and not needing the mitzvot. Not sure if Jesus would know what Paul was talking about...

In the end...we as human beings need to remember that all of us are one under g-d. Those that would separate us and look to make us enemies of each other are the enemies..

With that rant I'll go back to Tapout and check out the rotties...
9/1/10 10:17 PM
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Ridgeback
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jrrrrr - My 2 cents
Judaism is based on concept of one g-d. The love of g-d and living toward the way g-d wants. This is represented by how one lives their lives according to mitvot and the way one treats other people (Jews and non Jews alike).

While Christianity has similar beliefs, the very understanding of g-d is different. While many (some not so much) of the things that Jesus said was definitely from Judaism, the DOGMA that Christianity developed really differentiates it from Judaism. The concepts of a g-d split into 3 integrated entities; only by believing in Jesus would one have an afterlife, etc.

The whole thing of sacrifice isn't for g-d. G-d does not need sacrifice. Sacrifice is for us as human being needing to give to g-d to show our...gratitude to g-d...

Paul changed the whole concept of how Jesus was perceived. It went from Jesus being a messiah figure for the Jews to being sacrificed for original sins for "all" people and not needing the mitzvot. Not sure if Jesus would know what Paul was talking about...

In the end...we as human beings need to remember that all of us are one under g-d. Those that would separate us and look to make us enemies of each other are the enemies..

With that rant I'll go back to Tapout and check out the rotties...

 Things like the Trinity and the salvation of all men are rooted in the teachings of Jesus (as well as Peter, James and a bunch of other early Christians not in the canon) rather than just Paul.  The Theophany (the baptism of Jesus) is a Trinitarian moment.  Jesus claims he will gather all men to himself.

 It makes sense for a Jew to simply reject Jesus as a blasphemer, but not to pretend that Jesus didn't live according to a Trinitarian reality if he really was God in the flesh.  Dogma is about clarification of what was there at the beginning when people start getting off track. It was heretical views that lead to those clarifications.  
9/1/10 11:53 PM
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the rooster
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jrrrr: While Christianity has similar beliefs, the very understanding of g-d is different. While many (some not so much) of the things that Jesus said was definitely from Judaism, the DOGMA that Christianity developed really differentiates it from Judaism. The concepts of a g-d split into 3 integrated entities; only by believing in Jesus would one have an afterlife, etc.

me: yea, that was a later development by non Jews who were trying to bridge their pagan and polytheistic beliefs with the strict monotheism of the Jews.

It is not original to Christianity nor the Jews who preached and taught.

In fact, Tertullian, still considered an early catholic Church father admits that his term "trinity" that he made up and is not in the bible was rejected by post apostolic Greeks and Romans because it was viwed (like you rightly discern) as polytheistic.

There is obviously no such thing as separate "entities" to God. God is 1. He is Spirit. He came in flesh. He lives in us through His Spirit.

you: Things like the Trinity and the salvation of all men are rooted in the teachings of Jesus (as well as Peter, James and a bunch of other early Christians not in the canon) rather than just Paul.

me: no it's not. That's not true. Their is no such word and a foreign concept to the bible and the earliest Christians. Read tertulian. He admits it.

you: The Theophany (the baptism of Jesus) is a Trinitarian moment.

me: LOL. Uh, only if your a polytheist and you are finding 3 gods (entities, personalities, persons, beings, whatever) and not interpreting the text as a monotheist.

Jesus was in heaven while He was on earth.

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