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HolyGround >> Universalism v Eternal Damnation debate


8/29/10 12:43 PM
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Grakman
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Gary Ameriault of Tentmaker in a debate over universalism vs eternal damnation on a Christian reality-news type program. Watching this video made me realize the ridiculousness of having any concern over such a debate or controversy about something which we have zero experience or first hand knowledge. It reminded me of that old saying, 'How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?' I don't know but let's speculate and get into heated arguments about it anyway, whaddaya say?
8/29/10 3:18 PM
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toelocku
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lol...what?

no knowledge? have you read the bible?
8/29/10 9:27 PM
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Grakman
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Yes I have toelock, multiple times. And that's exactly the point. If it was that crystal clear you wouldn't have so many thousands of different denominations and sects all claiming to know 'the truth' about Heaven, Hell, salvation, etc. The guys in this debate are using the same book to prove completely different points, both claim to be right and they're totally opposite from one another.

8/30/10 4:21 PM
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toelocku
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just cause both claim to be right doesnt mean they are...thats were faith comes in.
8/30/10 11:05 PM
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Grakman
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toelocku - just cause both claim to be right doesnt mean they are...thats were faith comes in.

 There are Christians who believe (have faith) that those who don't believe in the Trinity or eternal Hell are going to, well, Hell. Does this make it true? How does one know? Is this the kind of thing that God would use to determine the eternal fate of a person's soul?


8/31/10 2:55 PM
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toelocku
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Which is why we have the bible...we 'don't need' others to tell us what itsays...if you have thespirit THATS ALL YOU NEED. Ask God and He'll give man.
8/31/10 4:01 PM
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inlikeflynn
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toelocku - Which is why we have the bible...we 'don't need' others to tell us what itsays...if you have thespirit THATS ALL YOU NEED. Ask God and He'll give man.


I'm sure both sides think they have the spirit. How do you know which interpretations are from the spirit and which ones are from men?
8/31/10 4:04 PM
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Grakman
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toelocku - Which is why we have the bible...we 'don't need' others to tell us what itsays...if you have thespirit THATS ALL YOU NEED. Ask God and He'll give man.

 That's exactly what all the other men have done who have started their own denomination. That's what Joseph Smith did. Joseph Smith was martyred for his beliefs, was he led by the Spirit?
8/31/10 7:05 PM
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Lahi
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The bigger question for me is eternal torment. I can't see that being something a good God could ever do, no matter what choices people made.
9/1/10 5:12 PM
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Grakman
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Lahi - The bigger question for me is eternal torment. I can't see that being something a good God could ever do, no matter what choices people made.

 Some would ask what evidence we have that God is good.
9/1/10 6:24 PM
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Ridgeback
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Grakman - 
Lahi - The bigger question for me is eternal torment. I can't see that being something a good God could ever do, no matter what choices people made.

 Some would ask what evidence we have that God is good.

 Well if God made us we could never be more good than him.  My deep sense of goodness tells me that I can't rise above my source in goodness.  
9/1/10 6:59 PM
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Lahi
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What Ridge said. I'd say Jesus is evidence too.
9/1/10 7:00 PM
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Lahi
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I think its a fair enough question. I do have the strong internal sense, but I doubt it a lot. The God shown us by Jesus helps me keep these doubts and dark thoughts in check somewhat.
9/1/10 7:28 PM
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Ridgeback
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Lahi - I think its a fair enough question. I do have the strong internal sense, but I doubt it a lot. The God shown us by Jesus helps me keep these doubts and dark thoughts in check somewhat.

 Agreed, but there is something deep inside us that verifies this about Jesus.  I think even the people who had him executed knew this.
9/1/10 8:19 PM
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Lahi
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Yeah I'd say you're right. I guess it does always come back to the heart.

This may be getting off track, but do you think everyone has this sense? I certainly have it. To me its one of those things that, if you're honest with yourself, is very difficult to deny once you've experienced it. I struggle with what you do with people like Hitchens, for example, who say they have searched honestly and have no knowledge of God in them at all.
9/1/10 9:12 PM
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Ridgeback
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Lahi - Yeah I'd say you're right. I guess it does always come back to the heart.

This may be getting off track, but do you think everyone has this sense? I certainly have it. To me its one of those things that, if you're honest with yourself, is very difficult to deny once you've experienced it. I struggle with what you do with people like Hitchens, for example, who say they have searched honestly and have no knowledge of God in them at all.
I think every person has a spark of it, but I think many have nearly extinguished it and are quick to cover it up.  I do think that a lot of anger that was generated towards Christ was caused by the light of his goodness being shined upon bad men and they wouldn't be angry if they never even conceived of him being good.  

I would say that people have this "knowledge of God" but since the ideas about God they are exposed to may be so malignant, they may not associate these authentic ideas with human religion.  They may think they have to preserve this sense of goodness against religion.  

I certainly reject the Calvinistic notion of total depravity.  


 
9/2/10 4:37 PM
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toelocku
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inlikeflynn - 
toelocku - Which is why we have the bible...we 'don't need' others to tell us what itsays...if you have thespirit THATS ALL YOU NEED. Ask God and He'll give man.


I'm sure both sides think they have the spirit. How do you know which interpretations are from the spirit and which ones are from men?

thats why the bible exsists!

so you can look for yourself! If you don/t understand something ASK GOD FOR HELP. He told you He would man.

let Christ be your pastor/priest.
9/2/10 8:39 PM
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Ridgeback
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toelocku - 
inlikeflynn - 
toelocku - Which is why we have the bible...we 'don't need' others to tell us what itsays...if you have thespirit THATS ALL YOU NEED. Ask God and He'll give man.


I'm sure both sides think they have the spirit. How do you know which interpretations are from the spirit and which ones are from men?

thats why the bible exsists!

so you can look for yourself! If you don/t understand something ASK GOD FOR HELP. He told you He would man.

let Christ be your pastor/priest.

 That doesn't make any sense.  Not only does the Bible not testify to itself (it calls the Church the ground and pillar of the truth) but there are several examples of the need for an interpretive authority to open the scriptures to a person.  There are simply too many disagreements among those who claim the Bible is their only guide to believe that it leads people into all truth.  Then you have St. Peter saying that interpretation should never be an individual endeavor and pointing out that people were already getting confused by the letters of Paul before they were even included in the canon.  I've heard people say God was guiding them into every kind of vile behavior at one time or another.  I think that path is too open to spiritual delusion.
9/19/10 12:53 PM
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Grakman
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Where does Peter say that people were getting confused by the letters of Paul?





9/19/10 2:35 PM
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Ridgeback
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 2 peter 3:14 Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; 15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures. 
9/19/10 2:50 PM
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Grakman
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 k, thanks Ridge.
5/1/11 3:11 PM
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Lahi
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5/3/11 2:00 PM
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reverend john
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Do some research on binding and loosening we are not meant to nor qualified to interpret the scriptures a d how they apply to our lives our selves

Rev
5/3/11 2:10 PM
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Grakman
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reverend john - Do some research on binding and loosening we are not meant to nor qualified to interpret the scriptures a d how they apply to our lives our selves

Rev

 Who is this reply meant for rev? I'd ask if we are not meant to nor qualified to interpret, who is and how would we know? (Not sarcasm or debate fodder - genuinely want to know what you think.)
5/3/11 2:30 PM
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reverend john
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I meant it for everyone

We are meant to interpret scripture in the midst of prayerful discerning church community looking to the past as well as the Spirit. I think we also should see scripture within the mission of the kingdom. As we live out life amongst the least we see Gods message of liberation from oppression. But when we read it from a place of privilege and empire we support the structures Christ came to be victorious over

Like I said look into the idea of binding and loosening the works of yoder are especially good

Rev

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