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HolyGround >> Universalism v Eternal Damnation debate


5/7/11 4:50 AM
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PastorJosh
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Scripture interprets Scripture. God will not contradict his own Word. Therefore, if You're struggling with a theological issue such as this, let Scripture tell you what Scripture says. Forget the latest theory, the newest wind of doctrine coming down the pipeline. Let God, through the Holy Spirit, through his already-revealed Word, get you to the answer. Phone Post
5/7/11 9:21 AM
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reverend john
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Pastor Josh is correct, but which scriptures interpret which scriptures? The bible is not the way, the truth, and the life, but Jesus the Christ is. The bible does not say if you see me you see the Father but Jesus Christ does. The scripture does not say that it is the exact representation of God's being, but it says Jesus is. So start with Jesus, and interpret all scripture through him. If this leads you to believe in hell, figure out who goes there

rev
5/7/11 11:50 AM
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Grakman
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Its kind of funny to see a Protestant insist one should not follow every new doctrine that comes along. :-D Phone Post
5/7/11 1:20 PM
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toelocku
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the scripture is the Word the Word is Jesus Christ this isn't even that hard...




2Pe 1:20 this first knowing, that no prophecy of the Writing doth come of its own exposition,
5/7/11 1:28 PM
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Grakman
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So the Bible and Jesus Christ are the same thing to you, toelock? 
5/7/11 1:35 PM
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toelocku
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Jhn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God;


THE WORD WAS GOD...

word are physical expressions of ideas that are derived from the mind and spiritual in 'nature'.
5/7/11 2:03 PM
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Grakman
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That doesn't really answer the question I asked, toelock. Was it meant to? Phone Post
5/7/11 2:10 PM
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toelocku
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was the verse i quoted that proved what i was sayng ambigious to you?

AND THE WORD WAS GOD...not exactly hard to understand.
5/7/11 3:15 PM
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Ridgeback
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Edited: 05/07/11 3:22 PM
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toelocku - Jhn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God;


THE WORD WAS GOD...

word are physical expressions of ideas that are derived from the mind and spiritual in 'nature'.
Sorry, but the original Greek is "logos" which has connotations that go far beyond turning ideas into language.   It is also clearly refering to Jesus, not the scriptures. 

At least you are willing to admit bibliolatry unlike may of the other fundies here who practice it but won't quite go as far as saying they consider the Bible to be their god.  And of course all anybody means by that expression is that they are their own gods because the Bible can be bent and hammered to fit any view under the sun.  Even thought the scriptures themselves testify to the necessity of authoritative teachers to interpret the scriptures, this didn't stop the rise of book worship after the advent of the printing press because their is no go like a little paper god.
 

"But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation"

The First Pope

5/7/11 3:30 PM
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Ridgeback
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Grakman -  Its kind of funny to see a Protestant insist one should not follow every new doctrine that comes along. :-D Phone Post

 He means after 1950. That is when we are definitely stopping.  
5/7/11 3:35 PM
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toelocku
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for everyone else...

logos is and idea itself and is spiritual in 'nature' expressed physically through language but believe trations whatever...

your Pope is a LIER thats not a proper translation. and is selfrefuting at that.
5/7/11 3:48 PM
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Ridgeback
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toelocku - for everyone else...

logos is and idea itself and is spiritual in 'nature' expressed physically through language but believe trations whatever...

your Pope is a LIER thats not a proper translation. and is selfrefuting at that.

 No, that is not what logos means.  It has many connotations and already did when St. John decided to use a philosophically charged pagan term to refer to Jesus, not the Bible.  

I don't have a Pope.  St. Peter was the one who those words are attributed to when they were already having problems with people reading St. Paul's letters and going astray.  You shouldn't call St. Peter a liar.  

I fail to see how the verse is self-refuting.  It makes perfect sense.  St. Peter is saying people shouldn't interpret scripture apart from the Ecclesia because they twist it and lead people astray.
5/7/11 5:01 PM
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reverend john
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the dumbest things I ever heard is the notion that logos and scripture are the same thing. Yeah the scriptures were crucified for you. Really dumb.

Paul would be embarrassed of you

rev
5/7/11 5:22 PM
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reverend john
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Ridge is exactly right, we cannot interpret scripture outside of the church. The church is given the mandate to bind and loose, not an individual.

rev
5/7/11 5:32 PM
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Ridgeback
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reverend john - the dumbest things I ever heard is the notion that logos and scripture are the same thing. Yeah the scriptures were crucified for you. Really dumb.

Paul would be embarrassed of you

rev

 I had relatives that considered the KJV to the the third person of the Trinity.  
5/19/11 5:35 PM
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Grakman
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 I thought I would resurrect ( :-D  ) this thread to discuss a topic that almost always comes up when discussing Christian Universalism:

If Christ saves all, why the cross? What's the point?
If Christ saves all, why preach if everyone gets in?

If there is no cross and no resurrection, there is no life. The wages of sin is death but eternal life is the gift of God through Jesus Christ. We were not created immortal but receive immortality through the Son. 

If a man is sick, he remains sick until he gets cured. Jesus Christ is the remedy for sin, without him we are slaves to sin and do not know the experience of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. We serve the Father out of love for him and what he has done for us, we love him in that he first loved us, from the foundation of the world; we serve him out of gratitude and desire to know him. We do not serve him through coercion or fear of eternal torment.

However, do not be deceived, God is not mocked. God is just and we all reap what we sow, including the believer, according to our deeds. All of our works shall be tested,  yet we shall be saved even though as through a fire (1 Cor 3:15).

Romans 10:9 - That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Philippians 2:10-11 - ..that at the name of Jesus, every name in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.
1 Corinthians 15:28 - When he has done this, the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

God bless you all my friends!
5/20/11 12:37 PM
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Dan O'Connell
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ttt
5/24/11 10:30 PM
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Grakman
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5/25/11 10:59 PM
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TheStewedOwl
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I just read a novel that turns around the theme of Universalism vs. Eternal Damnation: "Inferno" by Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle, first published back in 1976. I read it a long time ago, but re-read it because my son is reading Dante's Inferno for the first time (a little light reading for his summer vacation).

It's well worth a read. The protagonist, Allen Carpentier, is a science fiction writer who dies during an ill-conceived drinking game at a Sci-Fi convention, and wakes up in Hell - Dante Aligheri's Hell, to be exact. He is rescued from the upper ring of Hell in which he was imprisoned in a brass jug for eternity as an agnostic, and with the help of a new friend he meets, tries to escape - intially by using a hang-glider to ride the thermals above the red-hot city of Dis, and when that fails, by following the same route Dante did with Virgil, progressing down through the circles of Hell (meeting various acquaintances from his life and from history on he way), and viewing the new ways in which "outmoded" sins - like Simony - would be punished.

His friend (revealing who he is would be a spoiler) has a mission to help lead others out to Purgatory and eventually Heaven - if that's possible - as compensation for the (considerable) sins of his mortal life. Carpentier, despite his current circumstances, can't intellectually admit he is in Hell or that God exists, so he continues to try to interpret everything in science-fictional terms, as being trapped in a vast alien or futuristic construction.

The ultimate theological purpose of Hell is the key plot point. An interesting story, regardless of your views. I'd recommend it.

There's a sequel which I haven't read yet.
5/27/11 4:32 PM
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prof
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Edited: 05/27/11 4:35 PM
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Wow.

Over 33,000 competing Christian sects and interpretations of God's word and, when they debate, the most common phrase from every version of Christianity is:

"The Bible CLEARLY Teaches..."

With no hint of irony. No light of recognition. So few put 2 and 2 together. It boggles the mind.

Watching Christians debate crazy notions like "hell" reminds me of how disheartening it is just how much human mental time has been wasted on these issues. Not to mention needless mental anguish, and the swallowing of pernicious moral ideas.

Sometimes I really hate the insidious hold that damned book has on so many people's minds.

Prof.
5/27/11 4:47 PM
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prof
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BTW, the garbage peddled in that video stinks. One guy saying the only way a human can be "deeply" and "truly" happy is to accept Christ. Sorry...but this simply doesn't play out in real life. Christians don't have some magical track on "happiness." Plenty of non-Christians including atheists are deeply satisfied, happy people in terms of how happy people are, realistically. In fact, quite a number of ex-Christians report they are actually happier now as atheists. (That is not the rule of course, everything varies and atheists don't have a lock on happiness either).

I'm not paragon of contentment. But I'm a very happy person. Some of my more dour friends have almost been annoyed by my seeing most things as the "cup is half full" and seeing the good in most people. I haven't accepted Jesus, I know many Christians and I see NO evidence that they are on mass happier than I am. In fact, I know some who are clearly more nervous and tormented, but who turn to prayer and the bible to help alleviate their emotional issues.

As I remember, cognitive studies, including those examining brain waves, tend to rate some Buddhists on the top scale of contentment and happiness.

This guy is so full of it. If you go to the bible for the truth about human beings, you will almost inevitably get things wrong.

Prof.
5/27/11 4:56 PM
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gord96
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Edited: 05/27/11 5:14 PM
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do you really think people follow Christ to become happy? when i was an atheist and then again when i was an agnostic and whatever else I was over the years, I was quite happy and content as well.
5/27/11 11:09 PM
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TheStewedOwl
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Prof - But I'm a very happy person. Some of my more dour friends have almost been annoyed by my seeing most things as the "cup is half full"


I know what you mean, prof. Many people on this forum have been saying they think you're half-crazy, but I prefer to think of you as half-sane.










j/k.
5/27/11 11:17 PM
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TheStewedOwl
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I'd agree with gord69 that the purpose of faith, or life, isn't to be happy. It's to do your duty, which can lead to a deep sense of happiness. Sometimes.

Some people just tend to be happy more than not, like prof and gord96 and me. Some aren't. I don't know if that has anything to do with religion. The higher rate of suicide among Atheists is suggestive that an Atheist mindset may not be conducive to happiness, but that's just a correlation and may not be causative.

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