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Judo/Sambo UnderGround >> "WTF" US JUDO MAKES MONEY AND JR PAN AM IS A BUST

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9/4/10 9:04 PM
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gbutts
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SO, I JUST SPENT TO $880 ON A HOTEL THAT COST $450 LAST YEAR AND $650 0N PLANE TICKETS FOR MY TWO DAUGHTERS TO COMPETE AT THE JR PAN AMS. WELL, ONE OF MY DAUGHTERS HAS NOBODY TO FIGHT AND THE OTHER ONLY HAS 3 PEOPLE IN HER DIVISION (ALTHOUGH SHE DOES FINALLY GET TO FIGHT BRAZIL). LAST YEAR MY MIDDLE DAUGHTER HAD 13 PEOPLE IN HER DIVISION. I COULD TRY TO EXPLAIN THIS BUT USA JUDO DID IT FOR ME READ THE ENRTY FEE ON USA JUDO WEBSITE AND YOU WILL SEE WHY PEOPLE COULD NOT AFFORD HIS EVENT , THUS LESS PLAYERS ATTENDED. BTW, IF THE PLAYERS DID NOT STAY AT THE HOST HOTEL THEY HAD TO PAY USA JUDO $200. AGAIN "WTF"
9/5/10 3:17 AM
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JohnSerbin
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 How did USA Judo make money if not that many jrs. competed? 
9/5/10 7:13 AM
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gbutts
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john the rooms normally cost $139 a night USa judo is getting a percent of money from each room my daughters are haring a room
9/5/10 11:53 AM
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JohnSerbin
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At every tournament, from senior nationals to the junior nationals, even the junior nationals that were in LA this year, there is a deal that has to be struck with the host hotel and a block of rooms that have to be guaranteed to be filled or USA Judo has to pay them. Yes, there is money paid back to USA Judo or the tournament hosts if the block is filled but it seldom covers the cost of holding the tournament. USA Judo is trying to turn a normally unprofitable event into something we can host without losing money.

USA Judo has lost money in the past hosting these tournaments, but because we are hosting them, USA Athletes do not have to travel to other countries and pay even more in expenses. 

I have seen the financials from many tournaments like the Jr. Pan Ams and we most frequently lose money on them. I think that they are trying to find a price point that keeps USA Judo from losing their shirts on the deal and if they charged to much and athletes did not compete because of it they will have to lower it in the future or there just won't be any competitors. 





9/5/10 8:27 PM
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gbutts
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JohnSerbin - At every tournament, from senior nationals to the junior nationals, even the junior nationals that were in LA this year, there is a deal that has to be struck with the host hotel and a block of rooms that have to be guaranteed to be filled or USA Judo has to pay them. Yes, there is money paid back to USA Judo or the tournament hosts if the block is filled but it seldom covers the cost of holding the tournament. USA Judo is trying to turn a normally unprofitable event into something we can host without losing money.

USA Judo has lost money in the past hosting these tournaments, but because we are hosting them, USA Athletes do not have to travel to other countries and pay even more in expenses. 

I have seen the financials from many tournaments like the Jr. Pan Ams and we most frequently lose money on them. I think that they are trying to find a price point that keeps USA Judo from losing their shirts on the deal and if they charged to much and athletes did not compete because of it they will have to lower it in the future or there just won't be any competitor


sorry i did not complete my previous post my computer down and had to go to work. In 2008 I paid $129 a night for
same my daughter paid $270 a night this weekend. USA Judo block the rooms two years ago and they did not penalize you $200 for not staying at the host hotel. So i would had to $400 fee for my daughters if they did not want stay the host hotel. Why? 32 jr players X $ hoTEL cost = alot, now add the master players who were force to stay at the host hotel and pay the over-top hotel fees. What about the parents who force to pay and the coaches who were force to pay. PARENTS ARE ALSO FORCE TO PAY BECAUSE THEY WANT THEIR CHILDREN/PLAYERS TO GAIN EXPERIENCE AT COMPETING INTERNATI0NALLY.


The lack of competitors prove that this force people to stay home and btw (if anybody knows) why isn't is tournament worth points it use to be worth points.

ON POSTIVE NOTE OUR JR PAN AM TEAM DID VERY WELL MUCH BETTER THAN LAST YEAR; HOWEVER, BRASIL DID EDGE THEM OUT OF FIRST PLACE AGAIN.
9/5/10 8:29 PM
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gbutts
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I MEANT WRITE $129 FOR THE SAME HOTEL THEY STAY AT THIS WEEKEND FOR $270
9/5/10 8:55 PM
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judo man
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Is there are web page with draws and results?
9/5/10 9:12 PM
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gbutts
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judo man - Is there are web page with draws and results?

MINDY CHOW -1ST- 63KG JUV B
CRYSTAL BUTTS -2ND -57KG IJF
AMBER BUTTS -1ST IJF 78+ KG IJF
KYLE TAKETA -1ST 66KG IJF
LYDIA AU- 2ND -63KG IJF
LAQUITANA ALLEN 2ND -70KG IJF
MAX GOLEMBIO- 81KG IJF
JIMMY BARNES +100KG IJF
VANESSA CALIMQUIM 44KG JUV B
ANTHONY IGNE 50KG JUV B

I'LL TRY TO FILL IN THE REST OF DIVISIONS LATER

9/5/10 9:13 PM
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gbutts
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gbutts - 
judo man - Is there are web page with draws and results?

MINDY CHOW -1ST- 63KG JUV B
CRYSTAL BUTTS -2ND -57KG IJF
AMBER BUTTS -1ST IJF 78+ KG IJF
KYLE TAKETA -1ST 66KG IJF
LYDIA AU- 2ND -63KG IJF
LAQUITANA ALLEN 2ND -70KG IJF
MAX GOLEMBIO- 81KG IJF
JIMMY BARNES +100KG IJF
VANESSA CALIMQUIM 44KG JUV B
ANTHONY IGNE 50KG JUV B

I'LL TRY TO FILL IN THE REST OF DIVISIONS LATER


MAX -2ND IJF
9/5/10 9:18 PM
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gbutts
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JohnSerbin - At every tournament, from senior nationals to the junior nationals, even the junior nationals that were in LA this year, there is a deal that has to be struck with the host hotel and a block of rooms that have to be guaranteed to be filled or USA Judo has to pay them. Yes, there is money paid back to USA Judo or the tournament hosts if the block is filled but it seldom covers the cost of holding the tournament. USA Judo is trying to turn a normally unprofitable event into something we can host without losing money.

USA Judo has lost money in the past hosting these tournaments, but because we are hosting them, USA Athletes do not have to travel to other countries and pay even more in expenses. 

I have seen the financials from many tournaments like the Jr. Pan Ams and we most frequently lose money on them. I think that they are trying to find a price point that keeps USA Judo from losing their shirts on the deal and if they charged to much and athletes did not compete because of it they will have to lower it in the future or there just won't be any competitors


THE GOLDEN STATE AND THE JA/JF JUNIOR NATIONAL DID NOT MAKE ANY MONEY ON THE HOTELS
9/5/10 11:38 PM
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JohnSerbin
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Edited: 09/05/10 11:38 PM
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gbutts - 
THE GOLDEN STATE AND THE JA/JF JUNIOR NATIONAL DID NOT MAKE ANY MONEY ON THE HOTELS
They, the JA/JF juniors and the Golden States, did make money though.
Holding the tournament on American soil does save money for our membership. Can you imagine how expensive it would be to travel to Brasil for a Jr. Pan Ams? I know USA Judo has had a problem filling their block at host hotels in the past because members find cheaper hotels in the area and that could be why they charge more for those who did not stay in the host hotel.
I don't know specifics of this tournament but since it is a Pan American event I have a feeling that the PJC also has a hand in setting prices. I see what you are saying and don't disagree that the prices seem steep this year compared to years past but I know we have lost money in the past and need to set a price that's fair for everyone that gets the most amount of competitors to the tournament without causing USA Judo to lose money.
Just to let you know, typing in ALL CAPS usually signifies screaming at someone on these forums. You might know this and that's the tone you intend. I do not mind exchanging civilly though if that's ok. 
9/6/10 1:42 AM
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JoshuaResnick
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there is a very simple solution...

USA Judo should honestly stop using the 4 and 5 star hotels... hilton, hyatt, etc... are just far too expensive for the small membership that USA Judo has to afford those hotels 3,4,5,6,7+ times a year.

Start using smaller, or at least less expensive hotel chains... Heck, sign an exclusive contract with Holiday Inn, Best Western, Comfort Inn, if that is what it takes.

The truth is that Judo in the USA is not a top-tier sport, it does not have top-tier money and these hotel contracts are killing our abilities to have events be attended in the way they should be.

USA Judo has done lots of things very well in the recent years, and screwed up a bunch of times as well.. Normally this administration has done an okay job of learning from the mistakes, but overall there are still some key issues that result in stupid wastes of monies.... such as:

1. the issue this thread is about... just use cheaper hotels and have the "meetings" take place at the venue if need be!

2. this ridicilous "tournament committee" that people have to pay for to travel to the point events. i have not noticed an overall increased quality of events since this committee was formed, but i sure as hell have heard a whole lot of pissed-off people who are being told how to run a tournament they already have done a good job with in the past. it honestly makes the local judo clubs not want to help USA Judo out. stupid, that's the nicest way to word it.

3. stop charging coaches so damn much money to be coaches. USA Judo needs them more than anything else! without coaches then you have no athletes. to force these fees on the very people who you need most is just stupid. any club with more than 15, maybe 25, judokas who are USA Judo members should have no fees for coaching certifications... background checks are understandable fees.

fix those 3 and suddenly lots of the complaints go away. amazing!
9/6/10 2:13 AM
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gbutts
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JohnSerbin - 
gbutts - 
THE GOLDEN STATE AND THE JA/JF JUNIOR NATIONAL DID NOT MAKE ANY MONEY ON THE HOTELS<br type="_moz" />
They, the JA/JF juniors and the Golden States, did make money though.
Holding the tournament on American soil does save money for our membership. Can you imagine how expensive it would be to travel to Brasil for a Jr. Pan Ams? I know USA Judo has had a problem filling their block at host hotels in the past because members find cheaper hotels in the area and that could be why they charge more for those who did not stay in the host hotel.
I don't know specifics of this tournament but since it is a Pan American event I have a feeling that the PJC also has a hand in setting prices. I see what you are saying and don't disagree that the prices seem steep this year compared to years past but I know we have lost money in the past and need to set a price that's fair for everyone that gets the most amount of competitors to the tournament without causing USA Judo to lose money.
Just to let you know, typing in ALL CAPS usually signifies screaming at someone on these forums. You might know this and that's the tone you intend. I do not mind exchanging civilly though if that's ok. 



sorry about the caps i'm a cop and we always use caps, i forget to use all caps
9/6/10 2:18 AM
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gbutts
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gbutts - 
JohnSerbin - 
gbutts - 
THE GOLDEN STATE AND THE JA/JF JUNIOR NATIONAL DID NOT MAKE ANY MONEY ON THE HOTELS<br type="_moz" />
They, the JA/JF juniors and the Golden States, did make money though.
Holding the tournament on American soil does save money for our membership. Can you imagine how expensive it would be to travel to Brasil for a Jr. Pan Ams? I know USA Judo has had a problem filling their block at host hotels in the past because members find cheaper hotels in the area and that could be why they charge more for those who did not stay in the host hotel.
I don't know specifics of this tournament but since it is a Pan American event I have a feeling that the PJC also has a hand in setting prices. I see what you are saying and don't disagree that the prices seem steep this year compared to years past but I know we have lost money in the past and need to set a price that's fair for everyone that gets the most amount of competitors to the tournament without causing USA Judo to lose money.
Just to let you know, typing in ALL CAPS usually signifies screaming at someone on these forums. You might know this and that's the tone you intend. I do not mind exchanging civilly though if that's ok. 



sorry about the caps i'm a cop and we always use caps, i forget to use all caps

sorry about the caps, i'm a cop and we always use caps. i forget about the all caps thing when i'm sleeply.
9/6/10 2:43 PM
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JohnSerbin
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Edited: 09/06/10 2:58 PM
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JoshuaResnick - there is a very simple solution...

USA Judo should honestly stop using the 4 and 5 star hotels... hilton, hyatt, etc... are just far too expensive for the small membership that USA Judo has to afford those hotels 3,4,5,6,7+ times a year.

Start using smaller, or at least less expensive hotel chains... Heck, sign an exclusive contract with Holiday Inn, Best Western, Comfort Inn, if that is what it takes.

The truth is that Judo in the USA is not a top-tier sport, it does not have top-tier money and these hotel contracts are killing our abilities to have events be attended in the way they should be.

USA Judo has done lots of things very well in the recent years, and screwed up a bunch of times as well.. Normally this administration has done an okay job of learning from the mistakes, but overall there are still some key issues that result in stupid wastes of monies.... such as:

1. the issue this thread is about... just use cheaper hotels and have the "meetings" take place at the venue if need be!

2. this ridicilous "tournament committee" that people have to pay for to travel to the point events. i have not noticed an overall increased quality of events since this committee was formed, but i sure as hell have heard a whole lot of pissed-off people who are being told how to run a tournament they already have done a good job with in the past. it honestly makes the local judo clubs not want to help USA Judo out. stupid, that's the nicest way to word it.

3. stop charging coaches so damn much money to be coaches. USA Judo needs them more than anything else! without coaches then you have no athletes. to force these fees on the very people who you need most is just stupid. any club with more than 15, maybe 25, judokas who are USA Judo members should have no fees for coaching certifications... background checks are understandable fees.

fix those 3 and suddenly lots of the complaints go away. amazing!

 Hey Josh,

There are so many levels of tournaments from World Cup events to our level E tournamenst that USA Judo has some part in administrating. Each tournament has different requirements. Like for the Senior Nationals and US Open there needs to be at least 15 or so meeting rooms available for committee meetings as well as a room large enough for the general assembly meetings that occur. They can not be held at a separate tournament venue or the cost would be a lot higher. Usually bigger hotels have these facilities that can be used usually if the block of rooms that is guaranteed is filled. Smaller tournaments like the Level E's get to choose their hotels among the local organizing committee.

This years World Cup event was a first for the US and making a good impression on the IJF officials that came was extremely important. This is so we can be considered for future events like the Grand Slam, Grand Prix, and or World Masters events. I know the IJF was very pleased with this past World Cup we held.
For a Pan American event like the Jr/Masters Pan Ams, much the same applies as far as making the PJC happy so that we can hold these on American soil. This makes the tournament much more accessible to US Athletes as well as is cheaper to attend than going to other countries.

As far as I know, we don't have a tournament committee that is flown in for tournaments. We do have administrative support staff that are all employees of the National Office that are essential at tournaments. From registration to the organization of the committee meetings and BOD meetings, filming, technical support and so much more. Watching our staff work at the the tournaments, I can say they work 15-20 hours a day at these tournaments and are much needed.

As far as coaches being overcharged. I am pretty sure that coaches yearly registration is 70 dollars a year. This isn't exhorbinant by any means. You are certified by an Olympic National Governing Body for that amount. USA judo takes on liability of you for that too. I think that taking the risk that a parent sues you as a coach and can sue USA Judo since we certified them, a 70 dollar charge is not that bad.

Now, for  most US tournaments that are USA Judo sanctioned you only have to send in a coaching form to coach at the Junior nationals, Senior Nationals, and US Open if you are already a certified coach.

The World Cup event was and IJF event that we facilitated but their rules applied. Yes there was a 200.00 charge to coach at the event but  the US Open which was the next day after the World Cup there was no charge for the coaches and that was the USA Judo held event.

The Pan Ams  are a PJC event and their rules applied. I do not know if there was a charge for coaching there though. 
9/6/10 2:45 PM
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JohnSerbin
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gbutts - 
gbutts - 
JohnSerbin - 
gbutts - 
THE GOLDEN STATE AND THE JA/JF JUNIOR NATIONAL DID NOT MAKE ANY MONEY ON THE HOTELS
They, the JA/JF juniors and the Golden States, did make money though.
Holding the tournament on American soil does save money for our membership. Can you imagine how expensive it would be to travel to Brasil for a Jr. Pan Ams? I know USA Judo has had a problem filling their block at host hotels in the past because members find cheaper hotels in the area and that could be why they charge more for those who did not stay in the host hotel.
I don't know specifics of this tournament but since it is a Pan American event I have a feeling that the PJC also has a hand in setting prices. I see what you are saying and don't disagree that the prices seem steep this year compared to years past but I know we have lost money in the past and need to set a price that's fair for everyone that gets the most amount of competitors to the tournament without causing USA Judo to lose money.
Just to let you know, typing in ALL CAPS usually signifies screaming at someone on these forums. You might know this and that's the tone you intend. I do not mind exchanging civilly though if that's ok. 



sorry about the caps i'm a cop and we always use caps, i forget to use all caps

sorry about the caps, i'm a cop and we always use caps. i forget about the all caps thing when i'm sleeply.

 No problem, I work for Juvenile Corrections and it's the same way for us.
9/6/10 6:26 PM
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judo man
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I was kind of hoping they would have all the results and draws for this even on their web site. I believe this PJU vs PJC is only hurting these competitions.
9/6/10 6:48 PM
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OCJudoTrngCtr
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Edited: 09/06/10 6:49 PM
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 John is correct that historically, USA Judo has lost money on hosting the national tournaments. If you look through the financials and Form 990's, you can make an approximation of how much they lost over the years.

This is merely a personal opinion, but I believe an organization should try to host events in facilities that are commensurate with the level and significance accorded to the event.  A state championship is ok in a high school facility.  A national championship is not.

If I were to offer a suggestion to USA Judo, it would be to cut the number of events, and combine juniors and seniors.  If you held Sr. Nationals and Jr. Nationals on the same weekend, you could have between 1500-2000 competitors.  If you add in coaches and families that would show up, that is a lot of hotel rooms and revenues to the city.  I believe you would get much higher quality bids from the host cities. I would add novice and brown belt divisions as well for the Seniors. Do the same for US Open.

Host the Nationals in the East Coast during spring, and the US Open in the West during the fall or winter.   Eliminate the superfluous events like Scholastic Nationals, Jr. Olympics etc.  or in the alternative open them up to local judo organizations for bid. Have them pay a $15 per contestant fee to host it with similar points assigned to the event as they are today.  

It will then be up to the local organization to select the venues, and be responsible for appealing to the USA judo community for support based on quality of location, costs, number of competitors. Maybe they would do a better job of getting core local support for the event than the national organization. Maybe it would also get them to work closer with the national organization as well.

I do agree with Joshua and Gary that these additional fees on top of registration, hotel and airfare are not good for the competitors, their families or the organization.  It is a money grab, whether it is to cover costs (which I believe is the correct answer) or to make a profit.

I think there are better free market solutions to pursue.  One of those is to try and streamline events and allocate costs across a higher competitor base.  Gary suggested, and I would likely agree;  it seems like the costs had a large impact on the turnout this year for the Jr. PanAms.






 
9/8/10 12:13 AM
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JoshuaResnick
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John... I am pretty sure that there is a way to find the kind of space needed for these meetings at many venues. I am very sure that the arenas, gymnasiums could house the meetings in their seating areas or bleachers... youd just have to section it off properly. this is just one possible idea.

Lots of those meetings are also small and could also be at restruants that would love to have the business and would easily book a private room and provide a decent meal at a decent price... people have to eat as it is. this is just another possible idea.

the simple truth is that there is always a way to make it happen, IF one is truly trying to figure it out.

i also take exception to the idea that $70 is not a lot. it is a lot.. becuase it is never just $70.. it is the annual fee, plus $70 more... plus having to attend these coaching certification meetings and spend x-amount of dollars traveling all across the USA and y and z....

a coach is the person who provides membership to USA Judo. they are the people who host events. they are the people who fly in the clinicians. they are the people who volunteer their time and get others to do the same. they are the people who make everything that USA Judo is designed to do capable of taking place.... i think they are deserving of nto only free coaching certifications, but even free annual memberships if their club is over a certain number. i really do not think that is a lot to suggest. it really is just a nice way to say "thanks.."

let's also not get me started on why certain under 21 year old players, who clearly violated the code of conduct when overseas, are facing no punishment whatsoever while the coach for the trip-- a man who is know to all to be one of the most stern, no bullcrap men in all of American Judo-- was threatened with suspension when he clearly followed his job of the t. lets also not mention many of the other things that have happened in the past yaer that ere "swept under the table" because no charges were filed, or somebody happened to be somebody of reknown. it makes me sick... it makes me not want my kids, myself, or my team to be members of USA Judo until such a time when the "ethics" start catching up to people.

USA Judo has improved lots of things, and i support them all. they are doing a better job of press releases. they are doing a great job of athlete improvement and training... they came up with a wonderful family deal.

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