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Cigars, Beer & Poker Ground >> I'm an idiot.


9/19/10 11:20 PM
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Attdude
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I only play cash games with my friends almost twice a week and have almost never played Cash games online! I'm playing only big MTT tournys on pstars.
9/20/10 2:30 AM
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stillmatic
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2/4 NL online can be very swingy and it's not easy to beat. You can lose a decent chunk in no time. I'm not really a NL player, but if I were playing 2/4 NL, I would want 100 Buy-ins to feel comfortable.

As far as that hand goes, I think you got lucky unless you had a very specific read on that player. He pretty much called you off with one of the few hands that you could actually beat. I would think you lose most of the time when called on the turn there.

Personally, I would have folded to the 3-bet PF without a very specific read. The SB would need to be a complete maniac and retard. QJo is a mediocre hand and often times dominated by a re-raise from the blinds if the SB has a legit hand.

Is Min raise your standard raise in these games? I think it's fine, but I would think you would want to be controlling pot sizes if you're playing this way, otherwise a PF Min Raise makes no sense. The way you played the hand was the complete opposite of that. What was your plan if the SB moved all-in on the flop, would you have called or folded? I think you would be in a very tough spot, because you don't beat very much if the SB moves in on the flop.

The thing is you were playing a mediocre hand and ended up playing it like it was a super strong hand. On that kind of board, you're usually not going to be able to extract value from weaker hands than yours. The range of hands ahead of yours are much wider than the amount of hands you beat that actually may call you. If you're getting called, you're more than likely going to be beat. I think it makes more sense to control the pot size and just try to pick off bluffs with your hand rather than building a big pot. That makes the hand tougher to play, but it's also the reason why I would have folded QJo PF, so I wouldn't have to play it in the first place.

Those are my thoughts on the hand at least, but I don't play too much NL these days, so maybe things have changed.



9/20/10 2:58 AM
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PR
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Stillmatic said basically what I was going to say. I agree 100% man.

What do you play Still? How long have you been a pro?
9/20/10 3:25 AM
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stillmatic
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I don't really consider myself a pro. I've been playing poker for about 7 years. I was playing with poker as my only source of income for probably about 3 of those years. Now, it's become more of a part-time thing as the games have gotten tougher and I've become more content with just getting a steady paycheck rather than progressing up to the highest of limits.

I play mostly LHE, but play a wide range of games. I play anywhere from 1/2 to 50/100. I'm usually either just grinding it out at the lower limits multi-tabling a lot of tables or playing short-handed at the mid to higher limits. Multi-tabling the small stakes is the most steady, but also incredibly boring and tiring to do. Still, it works out to a decent hourly rate when it's all said and done.

9/20/10 8:48 AM
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andre
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Edited: 09/20/10 8:53 AM
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stillmatic,

Thanks for the awesome post. I appreciate the help.

Let me explain why I think I played this perfectly, although I admit that I was lucky when it came to the showdown.

Let's assume I'm lydia12345 and I posted the hand here without you being able to see Sbux Warrior's cards. What hands could you call with based on what Sbux Warrior was representing? Even with an overpair you'd have a hard time calling the turn because you don't have a 9 and there is a possible (10-8) straight on the board. My turn bet wasnt for value but to get a fold.

Let me back up for a second. My call preflop was loose. I called because I was trying to represent a big hand (which is why my bet was so small on the button), and I felt I could get away from it on the flop if I needed to because I had position and it was against only one player. When the flop came and he bet, I was fairly certain he didnt have a 9. I know that betting trips is the new slowplay, but against one player and with me raising then calling his 4 bet, I would think that he would check raise if he had hit the 9. When he bet, I felt strongly that it was a continuation bet and that he wasn't holding a 9 or even an overpair. It reeked of trying to buy the hand. When I immediately raised and he called, I began to narrow my read. I felt he either hit the jack and wasnt sure if it was good or had an underpair and was hoping I missed completely or that he would fill up.

My shove on the turn was to put him to a tough decision. If I was right that I had the best hand, I probably lose value but I protect my hand from an overcard and there's always the chance he calls with a draw or an underpair thinking I missed. If he has an overpair I think I have some fold equity and if he has a jack I have the same fold equity, and there are only two that I don't beat so I have some showdown value as well (not counting pocket jacks, which I completely eliminated as a possibility).

Plus, no matter what he has, I have a hail mary two outer I could hit on the river (I'm kidding).

In short, I thought I represented a lot of strength in the hand and the only reason we reached a showdown was because he misplayed the hand so badly. I guarantee if I had presented the hand here from the perspective of lydia12345, you would have felt calling the shove on the turn, even with an overpair, would be a mistake. I didnt count on him to make one as big as he did, but I felt I had some showdown value if he did.
9/20/10 8:49 AM
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andre
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"I would think you lose most of the time when called on the turn there. "

I agree with this. I just didnt think he could call the turn.
9/20/10 9:05 AM
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walbjj
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also another thing to add andre, are u getting rakeback and bonuses, cos there is no way that a half decent online player can survive without getting at least 50% rakeback, my brother last time i asked was on about 70% rakeback, as well as getting prizes for most hands raked etc.
he played well over 100,000 hands a month when he was grinding, it of course went down a lot when he travelled, but it was 60 hrs a week, 12+ tables, 7 days a week pretty much
9/20/10 9:08 AM
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andre
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Thanks, walbjj...I tried signing up for it, but since I already had a PS and FT account the rakeback site I used said I wasnt eligible (unless I wanted to sign up for cake poker or AB or some other site). Is there another way to sign up?

Thanks!
9/20/10 9:36 AM
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VectorWega
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 Lydia12345 is the one that represented power when he made it 8x the BB to go from the small blind.  Also, why did you raise it 2x BB from the button?  That seems like a very donkish raise.  That combined with the donkish call and the fact that you hadn't played many hands lifetime at 2/4 gave (the perhaps appropriate) the read that you are a fish/donk.  Your range is very large there.  Generally when you flat call there you probably have a pair, but certainly could have AK, AQ, AJ, and apparently even QJ!

Given that he has a Jack, he knows that board probably hasn't hit your pair and in the unlikely chance that it did, would u re-raise a boat or quads there? I don't think there.  So what are you representing?  Queens seems like the only logical hand..maybe kings but doubtful you play them that weak preflop.  Most of the hands in your range he has beat.  If he believed he had you beat on flop then he has to call the turn (u had pocket 7s and hit miracle boat)?

I don't play as high as 2/4 so my analysis may not be that great but the way you played this hand would have been extremely donkish on every street at the lower levels.  Why do you feel the need to play QJ so badly?  Sometimes you need to realize that your opponent outplayed you (or has you in terrible shape) preflop and fold to lose the minimum.  BTW, it looks like Lydia is a very good player that is a winner at all levels up to 3/6.
9/20/10 9:39 AM
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VectorWega
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 BTW, you haven't played enough hands at 2/4 (or online ring games at all) to know what you are representing.  Your opponent has played 570,000+ hands of 2/4 and around 3million hands of online ring games overall.  He knew your range, but you didn't.  Why get in a big pot with someone who has so many advantages over you?  Or did you not know that he was a regular?
9/20/10 9:55 AM
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andre
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He's the one playing JT out of position and CALLING (not shoving) with it when all he has is top pair and a poor kicker, and I'm the one who misplayed it?

I think you aren't giving me credit because it doesn't suit your overall point (that is probably totally correct...that I'm not ready for $2/$4 online).

I make a lot of money on hands when the board pairs and my opponent bets out. I have stolen enough pots by representing trips to know that over the long run my play in those hands is profitable. His call was unexpected and before I saw his hand I thought I had misread him and was drawing to only a couple of outs. But it turns out he made a donkish call that ended up in my favor.

A raise to two times the BB from the button is a play I would make with all sorts of hands, and especially with strong ones if I wanted action, but also with mediocre hands if I simply wanted to steal with minimum risk. Think of how many hands I could have from that position that crush him on that flop: A9, K9, QT, AJ, KJ, OJ, AA, KK, QQ, JJ (I'll leave that one out since I would have played it differently with the nuts), T8, T9...All sorts of hands I would try to steal with and from those, there are several I would call his reraise with because of position.

I know there is no justification for his call on the turn. While my preflop call is legitimately poor, and perhaps my preflop bet sizing could have been better, I really believe I outplayed him after the flop and that isn't because I had the better kicker.
9/20/10 9:58 AM
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andre
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VectorWega -  BTW, you haven't played enough hands at 2/4 (or online ring games at all) to know what you are representing.  Your opponent has played 570,000+ hands of 2/4 and around 3million hands of online ring games overall.  He knew your range, but you didn't.  Why get in a big pot with someone who has so many advantages over you?  Or did you not know that he was a regular?


I cant disagree with you here. You are absolutely right and I think I am going to drop down to $.50/$1. I'm not being sarcastic. I think I need to work my way up because there is still so much I don't know about being a profitable online player. I took a shot and even though I think I can play one table with the majority of the players at $2/$4 (especially since they are multitabling), I'm probably not maximizing profitability that way.

I did not know any of his stats. I am still in the dark ages when it comes to poker software.

Thanks for the feedback. It is very helpful and I will definitely take your advice and drop down a level or two.
9/20/10 10:48 AM
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stillmatic
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Ok a few points given your thought process. Generally a Min raise from an unknown means that he sucks and he's min raising because he has crap or a monster hand. A 3-bet from the SB with JTs is not a play out of the ordinary. Your on the button and probably stealing quite frequently, so he needs to open up his hand range as well at times. QJo gets dominated against his range of legit 3-bet hands way too frequently that it just isn't worth playing in my opinion.

Your opponent actually played the hand ok. He pretty much read your flop raise to not be very strong and thought you were trying to push him off a hand, which is what you were trying to do, so he called somewhat light there. You just happened to have a slightly better hand than he did.

Honestly your thought process is all over the place. I just don't see the reason to be playing big hands like this with mediocre hands. An over pair is never folding in this spot, so as I said before you are most of the time getting called by better and folding out the hands you beat. You bloated the pot with your flop raise that committed you both to the hand.

With no specific read, there's no reason to play this hand this way. It worked out, but personally I don't think it was correct.



9/20/10 11:06 AM
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andre
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stillmatic,

With all due respect, and not because I ended up winning the hand, but I still can't agree.

"Generally a Min raise from an unknown means that he sucks and he's min raising because he has crap or a monster hand. "

Agreed. So if I have a crap hand, I am certainly representing a 9 (which has to at least be in my range if you are putting me on a crap hand)...would I play it any differently if I had a 9? Maybe some people would just call the bet on the flop rather than reraise it, but he has to at least consider that I have a 9 if he puts me on a crap hand and I 3bet him on the flop and shove on the turn. There are draws out there that I could be trying to protect, or I could feel I'm able to extract value because of how aggressively he was playing preflop and on the flop.

If he decides I have a monster hand because of the min raise then again he has problems unless he has a monster as well. That was a risk I ran, but my read was that he didnt have a monster and I was correct. What can I say? Like I said, if he had an overpair there is a chance he lays it down because we're playing for stacks and he doesnt beat trips or the possible straight on the turn. If he has an underpair he probably has to lay it down, and if he has a J there are only a couple that beat me. Even if I give you that he calls with an overpair, I think that in this situation I am more often ahead than not ahead and with fold equity I think it is a profitable play, based on my read, to shove on the turn.

"Your opponent actually played the hand ok. "

I'm sorry, but here is where I feel you are revealing an intent to correct me because you feel I lucked into the win. Calling with top pair weak kicker on a board like that can't possibly be classified as "ok" unless he has me completely pegged as a donk and I hadn't been at the table long enough for him to make that determination and there isnt anything in my stats for him to conclude that either.

I have been wrong before and Im the first to acknowledge it when corrected. I'm not defending this based on ego, I promise you. And further, I guarantee that if I posted the hand with Durr instead of Sbux Warrior, everyone would feel it was played brilliantly.
9/20/10 11:13 AM
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VectorWega
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andre - Think of how many hands I could have from that position that crush him on that flop: A9, K9, QT, AJ, KJ, OJ, AA, KK, QQ, JJ (I'll leave that one out since I would have played it differently with the nuts), T8, T9...All sorts of hands I would try to steal with and from those, there are several I would call his reraise with because of position. 

 You flat call a strong re-raise with A9, K9, QT, KJ, QJ, etc?  Really?  This doesn't seem like a profitable play at all.  To me, preflop this is a raise-fold situation (and that is coming from someone that likes to play post flop.  By calling preflop you have no clue what he has.  When you raise the flop and he calls you should get the idea that you are probably beat. 

The only hand in his range that you can really beat is J10.   By contrast, he can beat a ton of hands in your range, specifically an underpair which is what you represented by calling preflop.  I don't get why you shove on the turn with QJ (actually, the raise on the flop was surprising too, especially considering it didn't stop you from betting the turn).  I bet he was REALLY surprised to see what you had.
9/20/10 11:20 AM
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VectorWega
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andre -
Agreed. So if I have a crap hand, I am certainly representing a 9 (which has to at least be in my range if you are putting me on a crap hand)...would I play it any differently if I had a 9? Maybe some people would just call the bet on the flop rather than reraise it, but he has to at least consider that I have a 9 if he puts me on a crap hand and I 3bet him on the flop and shove on the turn. There are draws out there that I could be trying to protect, or I could feel I'm able to extract value because of how aggressively he was playing preflop and on the flop.


 Why would you flat call with a 9?  That makes no sense.  Sure, it's possible, but not probable that you made such a horrendous play and lucked into a 9 on the flop.  And, as you stated, if you had lucked your way into that you probably wouldn't have raised a 9 on the flop.  Based on the action it was HIGHLY unlikely that you had a 9 at all.  As I stated before, this guy has played 500k+ games at 2/4.  He knows what a player's general range is there.

Why would you raise the flop with worse than a jack?  Ummm...because it's a bluff or a semi bluff.  I would think it would be more likely that you would raise that flop with an underpair than you would with a Jack considering how the preflop action went.

To me the worst part about this hand is the fact that you made it so big.  Maybe I'm just old school but you drove the action to put in close to 100 BBs with a pair of jacks and a queen kicker.
9/20/10 11:21 AM
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andre
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Vector,

I would flat call with all of those hands simply because it's heads up and I have position. Believe it or not, I am fully capable of getting away from a hand on the flop, even with top pair, even against one player. I'm not a donk who clumsily shoves or calls people down with a pair. In this hand I had a particular read and I felt that there were only a few hands he could call me with and if he didnt have those hands he'd have to fold. His donkey call at the end doesnt change that. If he'd have folded to the pressure I was putting, we wouldnt even be talking about this hand, but he made a bad call with the worst of it.

Are you seriously trying to tell me that every hand is about showdown value? I think I represented strength throughout the hand and given my read and the fact that I had at least SOME showdown value (in case he had a pair smaller than J), I think it was a pretty sophisticated play.

I'll give you guys credit that he probably isnt laying down overpairs or AJ, KJ, but do I have to immediately give him credit for those hands? Also, I think the fact that MY hand is disguised is an added bonus because he may call light (like he did).
9/20/10 11:28 AM
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andre
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"Why would you flat call with a 9? That makes no sense. "

Well, if you agree with stillmatic then you cant have it both ways. I either have a crap hand or a monster preflop, and if I have a crap hand then I could very well have a 9. If I have a monster then there are a lot of hands I have beat even he hit top pair.

"And, as you stated, if you had lucked your way into that you probably wouldn't have raised a 9 on the flop."

I most likely would have raised with a 9. He was aggressive preflop and on the flop, and calling represents a 9 just as much as raising so why wouldnt I want to get more money in there, especially if he is on some kind of draw?

"Maybe I'm just old school but you drove the action to put in close to 100 BBs with a pair of jacks and a queen kicker."

Yes, and the guy who you are giving so much credit to, this great experienced player, called with only a pair of jacks and a ten.

I outplayed him. I know you dont appreciate it, but I did. Experienced online players make mistakes and like I said, when Durrr plays a 8-6 off and gets AK to fold no one questions it. I made a bold play and he called with the worst of it. A better player would have folded to my shove. The lucky part for me was that he actually called with that hand. I fully expected to take down the pot on the turn.
9/20/10 11:32 AM
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andre
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I'm not making some general statement about my ability, as if I'm too good for $.50/$1 or $1/$2, or that I have a good chance at $2/$4, but I am certain that in this particular hand I outplayed my more experienced opponent and the fact that he COULD have had me beat (but didnt, just like I suspected) doesnt change anything.

Again, don't take this as me claiming anything about my overall level. When I posted the hand, it was simply because I was proud of that particular hand and not as a justification that I was ready to beat $2/$4.
9/20/10 2:28 PM
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stillmatic
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andre - stillmatic,

With all due respect, and not because I ended up winning the hand, but I still can't agree.

"Generally a Min raise from an unknown means that he sucks and he's min raising because he has crap or a monster hand. "

Agreed. So if I have a crap hand, I am certainly representing a 9 (which has to at least be in my range if you are putting me on a crap hand)...would I play it any differently if I had a 9? Maybe some people would just call the bet on the flop rather than reraise it, but he has to at least consider that I have a 9 if he puts me on a crap hand and I 3bet him on the flop and shove on the turn. There are draws out there that I could be trying to protect, or I could feel I'm able to extract value because of how aggressively he was playing preflop and on the flop.

If he decides I have a monster hand because of the min raise then again he has problems unless he has a monster as well. That was a risk I ran, but my read was that he didnt have a monster and I was correct. What can I say? Like I said, if he had an overpair there is a chance he lays it down because we're playing for stacks and he doesnt beat trips or the possible straight on the turn. If he has an underpair he probably has to lay it down, and if he has a J there are only a couple that beat me. Even if I give you that he calls with an overpair, I think that in this situation I am more often ahead than not ahead and with fold equity I think it is a profitable play, based on my read, to shove on the turn.

"Your opponent actually played the hand ok. "

I'm sorry, but here is where I feel you are revealing an intent to correct me because you feel I lucked into the win. Calling with top pair weak kicker on a board like that can't possibly be classified as "ok" unless he has me completely pegged as a donk and I hadn't been at the table long enough for him to make that determination and there isnt anything in my stats for him to conclude that either.

I have been wrong before and Im the first to acknowledge it when corrected. I'm not defending this based on ego, I promise you. And further, I guarantee that if I posted the hand with Durr instead of Sbux Warrior, everyone would feel it was played brilliantly.


I say your opponent actually played the hand ok, because he had some reasoning behind what he did. He 3-bet you PF thinking you were full of it with the button min raise. Then, he felt you weren't that strong after the flop and felt his pair of jack's is good there often enough. It turns out it wasn't. Honestly, you can't accidentally thin value bet and say you played the hand well. If you had some reasoning as to why you think you would get paid off with a worst hand, then I could see it being a good play, but you didn't in this situation. You were expecting to fold out hands better than yours, which I think is never happening. An over pair would never fold in this spot and AJ and KJ probably call too. The stacks aren't deep enough and he wouldn't have enough information to be folding it.

You're saying all along that you have no read on your opponent having no stats on him whatsoever. Given this information, why would you try and make this kind of play against an unknown? Aside from a gut feeling, you have nothing to go on. You have to give credit to the PF re-raise from the SB, because you have nothing else to go on. You were just making a random play with no rhyme or reason.

I think you got paid off by him in this instance because of your min raise PF. He thought you were weak and that his hand might be good and he was pretty close to being right. Your flop raise could have meant anything really on this kind of board. It could have meant a straight draw, a Jack, small pair or whatever.

As I've said before, the reasoning behind doing min raises should be for pot size control. The way you played this hand, that was not the case whatsoever. We're just going to have to agree to disagree on this one. I can never see how playing such a big pot with a mediocre hand against an opponent you have no information on is a good idea.



9/20/10 2:36 PM
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PR
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holy crap lol lots to read
9/20/10 2:40 PM
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JCT
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"Yes, and the guy who you are giving so much credit to, this great experienced player, called with only a pair of jacks and a ten."

I think the reason for his call is that the range of hands that you are shoving for value with on that board is really small. His read was actually correct because you were bluffing. Unfortunately for him, you were bluffing with the best hand. I'm not saying his call was 100% correct, just that it doesn't seem out of line to me.

"I outplayed him. I know you dont appreciate it, but I did. Experienced online players make mistakes and like I said, when Durrr plays a 8-6 off and gets AK to fold no one questions it. I made a bold play and he called with the worst of it. A better player would have folded to my shove. The lucky part for me was that he actually called with that hand. I fully expected to take down the pot on the turn."

The difference between Durrr getting someone to lay down AK with 86 and your hand is that Durrr has a read that he can get his opponent to fold AK and he does. In your hand, you thought you were bluffing and got lucky that he actually called with a worst hand. In other words, you misread the situation but got lucky.

Anyway, what hand range did you put him on and how often were you expecting him to fold?
9/20/10 2:54 PM
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andre
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Let's not call it a bluff. It's a semi bluff.

His range is pretty wide, but I felt he either had a pair smaller than jacks or two overs.
9/20/10 3:04 PM
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andre
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By the way, this is a case of people falling in line because that's the thing to do when the first person criticizes (and is reputable). I guarantee that if I had presented this from the perspective of my opponent and I had aj or kj you would have criticized calling the shove. If he has an overpaid and he calls, that's poker, but I am certain I represented strength and he simply decided that if he hit any part of the flop he was going to call me down.
9/20/10 5:58 PM
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VectorWega
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andre - Let's not call it a bluff. It's a semi bluff.

His range is pretty wide, but I felt he either had a pair smaller than jacks or two overs.

At what point did you feel like he had a pair smaller than jacks or two overs?  At the point that he re-raised big from the small blind or the point that he called your raise on the flop?  What do you think he puts you on that he can call that raise on the flop with an underpair? 

I really wish we had his perspective as to how you had played other hands and little things like how quickly you had bet/raised in this hand.  Based on how hard you went in this hand, it is very difficult for him to put you on a hand like QJ.  Your raise on the flop seems no different than a donk bet IMO.  Your bet on the turn seems like an "oh crap he called me on the flop, what can i do to get him fold" play.

Regardless, your play here was not ev+.  In most cases you are beat.  I wonder how it would have turned out had you folded preflop, raised preflop, or just called his bet on the flop.  IMO, all of those plays would have been better for both you and your opponent (in regards to variance and committing so many chips with marginal holdings).

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