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Cigars, Beer & Poker Ground >> Going 'All-In'


9/20/10 12:06 PM
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SiftMyMind
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Edited: 09/20/10 12:06 PM
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What are the reasons to move all-in during a hand?
9/20/10 12:13 PM
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andre
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You have the best hand, or you want someone to believe you do.
9/20/10 12:24 PM
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SiftMyMind
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andre - You have the best hand, or you want someone to believe you do.


If you know you have the best hand, wouldn't you just bet a smaller amount so as not to scare out the other players and, thereby, maximize the total pot (i.e., value bet)?

There are times when I know I have the best hand, and my first thought is to try and bet an amount that maximizes my return but DOESN'T scare any customers away.

Going all in tends to have the effect of scaring people away.
9/20/10 12:33 PM
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andre
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It depends on who you are playing and what you think they're holding, as well as the amount that's in the pot and the number of players still in the hand, plus your table image.

Sometimes a value bet is more intimidating than a shove. People value bet bluff quite a bit.

"Going all in tends to have the effect of scaring people away."

It really depends on the situation. Often going all in is a donkey's way of trying to scare people out of a pot (my "I'm an idiot thread notwithstanding) and is more likely to generate a call.
9/20/10 12:38 PM
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SiftMyMind
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You made some good points.
Thanks.
9/20/10 12:51 PM
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VectorWega
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 I use all-in quite frequently as my table image is that of a donkey that plays too many hands.  Bad players will often call you regardless of how much you bet, so I definitely find the all-in a much better way of getting value from them when I know I have the best hand or I have the nuts.

I also like the employ the preflop all-in frequently when I'm short-stacked or late in SNGs.  If there are several limpers you can push all-in because you know they can't reasonably call.  If they are bad players they may call anyways, in which case the goal is to do it with a hand that more likely than not will have them dominated and drawing thin (or at worst, is a flip).
9/20/10 2:45 PM
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JCT
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The thing you have to look into is expected value.

You can't really try to think of the biggest bet size that he won't fold to. For example, if you both have 100 left, if you think he will call an all in 60% of the time, but will call 50 100% of the time, you should go all in because your expected value is 60 vs 50 (plus what is already in the pot), even though almost half the time you will win no extra money.

Of course, there are other amounts in between, but there won't be that much of a difference between betting 80 and 100 etc.
10/3/10 8:50 PM
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Jambo888
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when you know others have strong hands or are pot committed and you are sure they will call any raise
10/3/10 8:51 PM
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Jambo888
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or when you have a weak hand and you want to make it too expensive for anyone to call (except donkeys and people who have strong hands)
10/14/10 10:45 AM
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SiftMyMind
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Trying to isolate
10/15/10 5:15 PM
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PoWdA101
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SiftMyMind - What are the reasons to move all-in during a hand?

This is such a broad question.

First off, you can't play poker in a vacuum. I mean, You can't just say "this is why you go all-in" but you can say "this is why I would go in in this situation." There could be a billion reasons to go-all in and a billion reasons not to and a billion arguments for raising a particular amount, folding, or calling depending on the circumstances of the hand you are in.

What are some basic reasons for going all-in?

Generally speaking, you go all-in to deny your opponent the odds necessary for a call. This does not mean that all-in is always the correct bet but assuming you have a decent stack you are generally going to be denying your opponent the odds they need to draw for however many outs they need. basically, from a math standpoint, you are saying that they d not have the correct odds to make your all-in call, again assuming that you have a decent stack.

When you have a short stack your reasons for pushing all-in are different. Many times you simply don't have enough to play after the flop and after various calculations (M for one) you realize that your only smart move is pushing all-in. The goal here is to get your goal here is generally to get heads up giving your hand a better chance against your opponents range of hands. This is often times a positional raise and generally used in tourneys as a last ditch effort to stay alive.

In cash games you should never be short therefore your reasons for ever pushing all-in change. The reason for this is that you can keep buying in in a cash game and basic poker strategy states that you can only win double what is in front of you so you should generally keep a decent stack in any game you play (I'm not going to get into arguments for short stacking here). Since you have a big stack it would be foolish to push all in unless the pot has grown substantially. This means that your bet will not be 100 times the pot or something dumb like that, your all-in needs to be at a point where you will make significant profit from what is in the pot - bluff or not.

Now say you are playing a $1/2 NL game and the pot is $100 and you have $200 you may over bet and move all-in in some circumstances. Say it is pre-flop and the pot is $3, moving in with your $200 is a terrible mistake with pretty much anything.

So my answer is that it all depends but generally speaking you raise all-in to deny your opponent good odds to call or to isolate. I could go on all day but it really is an incredibly broad question with about a million correct answers.
10/15/10 5:18 PM
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PoWdA101
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And I'm not editing my typos cuz the edit feature is acting all weird. I know I typo'd a lot.
10/16/10 1:04 AM
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VectorWega
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PoWdA101 - 
In cash games you should never be short .
 
Mark Vos disagrees
10/16/10 11:24 AM
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PoWdA101
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VectorWega - 
PoWdA101 - 
In cash games you should never be short .
 
Mark Vos disagrees

10/16/10 11:26 AM
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PoWdA101
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VectorWega - 
PoWdA101 - 
In cash games you should never be short .
 
Mark Vos disagrees



From that same paragraph...

I'm not going to get into arguments for short stacking here

10/18/10 6:35 AM
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David@accu
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 Depends... are we talking cash game or tourny?

In a cash game there are a very small number of reasons you should.

- Isolation
- Bluffing
- Maximize the value of your hand


In a tournament thats a different story. You have all the same reasons as a cash game and a few more. You can use an "all in" simply for a positional raise. You can use it to force someone else all in to end their stay in the tourny. You can use it to pick up blinds when your short stacked.


As far as being short stack in a cash game, I don't see whats wrong with it. I do it more often than not and I fair pretty well. But I am very patient and direct. If it's a hand I should win, then I will win it. Sounds like mind over matter but you know that feeling when someone has a hand that you know won't let go and it's not worth it to call a huge raise, thats how you have to play it. Like the money in front of you could all go into the pot and you wanted and expected that. It's a harmonious mesh of agressive play and patience with patience leading the charge.

The same things I do work for me though. I can't tell you everything that I do and expect you to come out on top. My game works for me. A persons game is developed through losing and winning alot of money and the mistakes and awesome plays you have made.  I can make a play on a huge pot with a bullshit hand if I think the other person has a bs hand too. However some would just fold in fear of a "calling station".
11/9/10 1:48 AM
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BJJ Skills Kills
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This question is too generic. SiftMyMind you can't correct people about how smaller value bets are better than all-in bets if you have no clue of pot size, stack size, tournament or cash game, players, etc. etc. etc.

You should go all-in when that is the best play. Some reasons would be to force your opponent to fold (opening the small blind for 9bb with 98s), as a value bet (pot size is 1200 you have to tptk with a 900 stack), or because you are pot committed.
11/9/10 7:45 AM
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David@accu
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 If you currently play on pokerstars the reasons are....


1. You bought in for the bare minimum at the table, and think if you keep going all in you will double up.

2. You are a few bucks short of a SNG tourny so you keep going all in to collect blinds

3. You are from Nepal

4. You play K, 3 offsuit and hit your 3 on the turn despite not flopping anything and calling a bet half the size of the pot. Yet you still have the worst hand

5. You are mentally challanged and have found the "all in" button of particular interest as opposed to the fold button.
11/9/10 12:19 PM
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andre
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David@accu -  If you currently play on pokerstars the reasons are....


1. You bought in for the bare minimum at the table, and think if you keep going all in you will double up.

2. You are a few bucks short of a SNG tourny so you keep going all in to collect blinds

3. You are from Nepal

4. You play K, 3 offsuit and hit your 3 on the turn despite not flopping anything and calling a bet half the size of the pot. Yet you still have the worst hand

5. You are mentally challanged and have found the "all in" button of particular interest as opposed to the fold button.



I may print this and post it next to my computer. Awesome.
11/10/10 4:54 AM
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Jambo888
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David@accu -  If you currently play on pokerstars the reasons are....


3. You are from Russia



... had to edit this for all the super aggressive Russians on PS

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