UnderGround Forums
 

TMA UnderGround >> The Ultimate Systema thread.


10/19/10 2:48 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Skpotamus
38 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 1277
Zero1 -  Honestly I watched so many videos on youtube and 99% are horrible.

Which I never understood, most instructors show bits and pieces from their training as promo and it looks like good, solid material that works. ALL of the Systema stuff looks like Chi Master BS.

Zero1 -
Vlads stuff is unbelivable and I like Kostic, Wheeler, the greek guy Emmanuel and Sonny Puzikas.

Again, why don't they do a video showing them actually doing something people would recognize as useful? Show one video of them using it full speed, of a class sparring, or one of their students in a MMA match. That would go a LONG way to getting them accepted and more popular.

Zero1 -
I think you have to be crazy a little bit esoteric BUT you need basic fighting skills like boxing, wrestling, BJJ to make it work.

If you need basic skills like boxing, wrestling, BJJ, etc to make it work, then why even bother with Systema? Why not stick with the boxing, wrestling and BJJ?

Zero1 -
It´skind of a master class which is giving your skills a higher level but I doubt it will help beginners in martial arts.


My experience with martial arts is that it's the basics that are the most important. If Systema relies on the student to already have basics from another system, then how useful can it be?

Would it be possible for you to video tape a sparring match with some of your guys so we could see how it works when people are really trying to hit each other? Like a "friendly" gym match? I'm not talking Chute box blood baths, but something full speed with actual intent?

If you did so, and the video looked good, you'd almost single handedly stop all the questions about it.
10/19/10 2:49 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Skpotamus
38 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 1278
Zero1 -  Honestly I watched so many videos on youtube and 99% are horrible.

Which I never understood, most instructors show bits and pieces from their training as promo and it looks like good, solid material that works. ALL of the Systema stuff looks like Chi Master BS.

Zero1 -
Vlads stuff is unbelivable and I like Kostic, Wheeler, the greek guy Emmanuel and Sonny Puzikas.

Again, why don't they do a video showing them actually doing something people would recognize as useful? Show one video of them using it full speed, of a class sparring, or one of their students in a MMA match. That would go a LONG way to getting them accepted and more popular.

Zero1 -
I think you have to be crazy a little bit esoteric BUT you need basic fighting skills like boxing, wrestling, BJJ to make it work.

If you need basic skills like boxing, wrestling, BJJ, etc to make it work, then why even bother with Systema? Why not stick with the boxing, wrestling and BJJ?

Zero1 -
It´skind of a master class which is giving your skills a higher level but I doubt it will help beginners in martial arts.


My experience with martial arts is that it's the basics that are the most important. If Systema relies on the student to already have basics from another system, then how useful can it be?

Would it be possible for you to video tape a sparring match with some of your guys so we could see how it works when people are really trying to hit each other? Like a "friendly" gym match? I'm not talking Chute box blood baths, but something full speed with actual intent?

If you did so, and the video looked good, you'd almost single handedly stop all the questions about it.
10/19/10 3:25 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Missing Glove Tape
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 4/12/10
Posts: 1374
Skpotamus - 
Zero1 -
I think you have to be crazy a little bit esoteric BUT you need basic fighting skills like boxing, wrestling, BJJ to make it work.

If you need basic skills like boxing, wrestling, BJJ, etc to make it work, then why even bother with Systema? Why not stick with the boxing, wrestling and BJJ?


I could be wrong, but I think that originally, since systema was a part of the formation of samoz/sambo, it retained its wrestling base even though Spiridonov's influence was geared more police combatives(arresting)/crowd control and certain 'tricks' for spetsnaz and people in the intelligence field(spies?). I have a book somehwere that basically says it's all combat sambo, but that the systema stuff is just specialized training(ie: as a addition to, not stand alone) they called "combat sambo spetsnaz". IMO, it's why you see hints of the concepts systema preaches in the Fedor fights, ala his casting punches and the way he transitions from striking to grappling so smoothly, and also how he was able to just shuck Brett Rogers off from against the fence despite the weight/size disadvantage. What seems to have happened, however, is that Vlad/Mikhail and the Kadochnikov camp have dropped the combat sambo foundation that ties the other stuff together in favor of going the TMA bullshido route.
10/23/10 4:46 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Missing Glove Tape
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 4/12/10
Posts: 1396
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7xcTfHC_tQ


^Kevin Secours knifework.

Obviously not contact at the level of a Dog Brothers gathering, but the material is itself very solid. Far moreso than the material in Wheeler's video and/or anything I've ever seen from Vlad or Mikhail. Yet, it all comes from the same source, so what gives?

Nevertheless, though a lot of the video is similar to Marc Denny's DLO and Karl Tanswell's STAB material, I do have to compliment Secours for demonstrating some concepts/techniques against resistance that I can clearly identify as being systema-esque. The preemptive/unconventional strikes and movement/body mechanics especially. Interesting. It's just a shame we(I) don't get to see more footage like this.
10/29/10 2:29 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
yusul
114 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 12411
''My experience with martial arts is that it's the basics that are the most important. If Systema relies on the student to already have basics from another system, then how useful can it be? ''

would yoga help bjj? would something like crossfit or circuit training? plyometrics?

for example, a chinse martial art called bagua was originally taught by it's founder only to people who had fighting experience and either a chinese wrestling or shaolin fist method first. he considered it a graduate program of sorts. not siding with systema, but there is a logical reason for having a base first imo.
10/29/10 4:03 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Zero1
41 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 2018
 I will put up some sparring stuff soon. Not hardcore all out fighting but fist fighting with 16 oz gloves and nothing prearranged.

I would agree basics are important.

I would say a good example is Vitali Klitschko. He changed his style over the years.

Here is a fight of him from ten years ago:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ewC7sAKumA&feature=related

And here is his his last fight against Briggs:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6gBJg5qGHs

You can clearly see the change in the way he hit and move his footwork, etc.

It looks like he is more relaxed. More relaxation means better awarness and better awarness means better timing.

I´am not saying Klitschko is doing Systema but I think because of his physical body and abilities he was able to relax more and more over the years even under pressure and that way his style changed to something his brother discribes as: only Vitali can box like this it´s his own thing.

I think that is somekind of developement Systema does for me. The softwork creates a state of training where I´am able to experience and play with my movement. Which help me for the sparring.

Systema teaches you relaxation, awarness and feeling and since these things are very personal related you see many strange footage from people who move like aliens. It´s not for everybody.

Take care
Björn

10/29/10 4:58 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Missing Glove Tape
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 10/29/10 11:02 AM
Member Since: 4/12/10
Posts: 1459
http://www.spike.com/video/aftermath-green/3171579

^Obligatory FWAT warning and all that jazz. I also have to admit to having not watched the full episode(premise of the show seems kinda ghey, so I never bothered).

In any event, what Puzikas said about systema not being a martial art in as much as it's a way to train/develop attributes was interesting to say the least. Took me back to Paul Vunak material, if only for a minute. ;o)

What irks me, however, was seeing the hokey stuff Vlad and Mikhail do in my mind while Sonny was describing the necessary harshness in his spetsnaz training as preparation/desensitization to the ugliness and brutality of combat. How can someone with that kind of background be deceived by the hokey mysticism and a martial art that doesn't work? Or is there actually something to it?

*edit: mental note; remember not to post while sleep deprived!
10/29/10 6:46 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Zero1
41 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 2019
 Here is some footage of me from tonight. It´s Boxing Sparring to set up the Clinch or takedown.
It does not look like Systema Slow Work. But relaxation of my upper body, shoulders and arms. Timing fo the takedown and movement is better than ever.


10/29/10 7:18 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Missing Glove Tape
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 4/12/10
Posts: 1462
^What, no 'ballistic' sparring? I am disappoint! lol



But seriously, thanks for posting the clip.


I was looking around today and thought the clip below was pretty interesting, especially when put into a context like Sonnon's softwork clip or your ground flow kick defense:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHo1S4sicQo

^Sure, they could be going harder and putting more pressure on the bottom man, but at least they're gloving up and looking like normal people as opposed to mystics or Ueshiba disciples. Bottomline, if properly implemented(ie: in an alive manner with performance/functionality as the #1 priority) I can see how softwork can function as a means of introducing a concept/technique, and also a way to get students to think and move in scrambles all the while staying relaxed and not 'struggling' against resistance. And of course, training progresses and you eventually begin to glove up and drill/spar as the guys are doing in the video above. If that's the way it's done, I can live with it. I can also see where a base in a functional delivery system like combat sambo would be extremely beneficial in terms of athleticism and a shortened learning curve.

That said, are we ever going to know why Vlad/Mikhail come off like mystics and are pushing systema in a hokey direction?

11/3/10 1:23 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
cprevost
3 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 12/28/03
Posts: 550
Missing Glove Tape - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7xcTfHC_tQ


^Kevin Secours knifework.

Obviously not contact at the level of a Dog Brothers gathering, but the material is itself very solid. Far moreso than the material in Wheeler's video and/or anything I've ever seen from Vlad or Mikhail. Yet, it all comes from the same source, so what gives?

Nevertheless, though a lot of the video is similar to Marc Denny's DLO and Karl Tanswell's STAB material, I do have to compliment Secours for demonstrating some concepts/techniques against resistance that I can clearly identify as being systema-esque. The preemptive/unconventional strikes and movement/body mechanics especially. Interesting. It's just a shame we(I) don't get to see more footage like this.


There is no resistance in this video. Resistance as I understand it is your partner being uncooperative. What you have here is "theatrical resistance" which means it's meant to look like resistance but is actually cooperative. Hard for the untrained eye to spot but easy for a veteran.
11/6/10 3:51 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
jellyman
7 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 26415
cprevost - 
Missing Glove Tape - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7xcTfHC_tQ


^Kevin Secours knifework.

Obviously not contact at the level of a Dog Brothers gathering, but the material is itself very solid. Far moreso than the material in Wheeler's video and/or anything I've ever seen from Vlad or Mikhail. Yet, it all comes from the same source, so what gives?

Nevertheless, though a lot of the video is similar to Marc Denny's DLO and Karl Tanswell's STAB material, I do have to compliment Secours for demonstrating some concepts/techniques against resistance that I can clearly identify as being systema-esque. The preemptive/unconventional strikes and movement/body mechanics especially. Interesting. It's just a shame we(I) don't get to see more footage like this.


There is no resistance in this video. Resistance as I understand it is your partner being uncooperative. What you have here is "theatrical resistance" which means it's meant to look like resistance but is actually cooperative. Hard for the untrained eye to spot but easy for a veteran.


Unless you're the one actually doing the work, I think any outsider's interpretation of intent level from training footage is going to be suspect. Why? There is literally nothing anyone can show that someone will be forced to say "Yeah, that's authentic". Non-falsifiable hypothesis.
11/17/10 5:36 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
cprevost
3 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 12/28/03
Posts: 561
I'm not sure what you mean by intent level? It's clear as day that this is theatrical and not actual sparring though. That may be just fine as maybe that's what it's supposed to be. If it's being presented as knife vs freehand sparring then it's not genuine. If it's just a demo tape meant to show techniques then I have no beef with it.
11/27/10 4:36 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Zero1
41 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 2032
 Last weekend I was training 10 hours with Alex Kostic who was training with Vladimir for over 10 years......

He has a good understanding of Systema but he also does (we did in the seminar) Full protection scenario Fight Training. 2 guys standing one on the ground. 2 against one standing, etc.

Of course things doesn´t look that beautyful in a fight but the sense of timing, The ability to use your body, etc. is very very helpful.
I put Systema into all of the three distances Standing, Clinch and ground and it changed my game a lot.


11/27/10 9:12 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Missing Glove Tape
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 4/12/10
Posts: 1900
^I talked a lot of shit on the other thread but I do appreciate the direction Kostic is headed.
11/28/10 5:09 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Zero1
41 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 2034
 Kostic is very real about these stuff. He is training in serbia together with MMA people and is doing his own thing. He isn´t calling it Systema anymore but "Homo Ludens" which means "Playing men".

He is still focused on Systema and flow training or playing as he calls it but is doing sparring also.

For me the best approach is:

In stand up:
70% Playing
30% sparring

In Clinch:
50% Playing
40% playful sparring (I let my BJJ guys go at me and try to work my other stuff)
10% Sparring with my "A Game"

On the ground:
50% Playing
40% playful sparring (I just use blue and purple belts for this and let them work normal, while I try to flow)
10% SParring with the "A Game" which is usually: Leg on shoulder pass -> Side Mount Pressure -> Bent Armlock

Take care
Björn
12/30/10 4:16 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Missing Glove Tape
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 4/12/10
Posts: 2482
Hey Zero1,

Can you break this video down for me? As always, I like how they're moving freely from one range to another, but with all they big words they're using it's hard for me to follow the lesson and 'get' the idea.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1_fYgd25FI


Thanks! ;)
1/2/11 2:09 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Zero1
41 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 2059
Honestly I don´t like that video. The guy is just moving backwards and doing some movements without really having a "Feeling connection" to the partner.

This is some good work I think.


1/2/11 2:54 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
yusul
114 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 12693
interesting.

i notice that the asian dude never increases the speed of his punches against vlad, while vlad quickly accelerates his own slaps/ punches.

was it more of a drill (for vlad to try more moves) than some sort of flow sparring? or was the student afraid of an escalating response so he kept his speed and rhythm the same?
1/2/11 4:24 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Zero1
41 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 2060
 I think it is something like slow rolling playing around at slow speed. I think fear of getting hit is a factor because Systema punches are really deep.

The most important thing with this training is to feel the connection between you and your opponent. Not in an esoterical way but with the sense of timing and distance. Learning to feel is the key for this kind of stuff.

1/2/11 9:16 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
jellyman
7 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 27082
This clip above has what I would call friendly symmetrical (tori-tori) sparring from standing at about 46 seconds in. Before that is what I'd call assymetrical (uke-tori) work. Note use of peripheral vision in 3 person sparring.

Keep in mind these guys are using bare knuckle, no mouth piece, and no groin protection. It makes a difference.
1/2/11 9:27 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
jellyman
7 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 27083
japanese terminology is used by me, not systema folk, for benefit of any judo/jjj types.
1/2/11 9:27 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Missing Glove Tape
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 4/12/10
Posts: 2569
Anyone care to explain the clip I posted? WTF is Secours talking about with all them big words?
1/2/11 9:35 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
jellyman
7 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 27084
This is from a variety of clubs from people with a variety of experience. Some use equipment, some not. I personally took Vasiliev's school as the gold standard in terms of realism and ease of understanding, but then I've only been to Moscow once, and most of the interesting stuff was from Ryabko's students and his son. At one point his son at 14 and I did wrestling on a circular raft, diameter about 10 feet, that was attached to a giant inner tube in the middle of a pool in his basement. The boy had been doing this formally since he was 10, used all kinds of tricks to break my balance like spinning the raft. We went at that for about an hour. At most I lasted for 1 minute before I got launched into the water. Now that boy is a police detective...

These videos were found by googling "systema sparring" btw.
1/2/11 10:07 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
jellyman
7 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 01/02/11 10:18 PM
Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 27085
MGT, while you're here, I remember you asked why people were reacting to non-solid-seeming blows. Looking at Secour's clip, I think I see a similar idea. In manny's clip the guy had formed the intent of grabbing him. Manny threw up an obstacle that was solid enough to disrupt his posture. Think of doing a shoot and running into the corner of a 2X4 with your head that you didn't see. Boxers, kickboxers and Thai boxers, besides wearing equipment and coming in with the mentality that they will get hit, rarely commit their weight the way someone does when they're trying a grappling attack. Rolling away when you're in trouble is not considered a bad thing in systema, although in sports it would be. I'll leave why this would be so as a thought exercise for you.

In Secour's clip there's a few things going on

He presents an image that the guy is trying to kick, and flips the script after the kick is launched. A lot of people have a mental image that of what they are hitting when they launch a strike. That's why people miss strikes when the other guy dodges or slips rather than simply not striking. There is a point of no return. Proprioception is not a made up word but refers to our sense of our body's position in space. When you brace for the blow back from your kick you often lose your balance if the kick doesn't land, or you compromise your power. There is a third way wherein you kick with power but without intent and if you miss you redirect the power to something else, like maybe the ground (to make it a step) or some other target if there is one available. At that point you're entering into the movement phase of systema where you move with power but even you don't know what the resulting attack will be in it's final form - could be a punch, a slap, a grab, an entanglement, an evasion, a smother, a deflect etc. (That's not covered in this clip)

By leaving a little something (arm or leg) where his body was he can disrupt balance with deflection, or commence entanglement. The little something can also be used to absorb some of the shock. By having the arms independent from the body movement you can be more unpredictable. Think of your limbs as tentacles with clubs on the end. Kevin being Kevin he didn't get much into the clubs on the end, just balance disruption.

Then comes some assymetrical stuff - it's apparent to me the people at the seminar are not used to taking people down when he kicks and tells them to take him down. Half the time they are fighting their own takedown and doing a lot of unnecessary work - but they are beginners I guess.
1/2/11 10:16 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
jellyman
7 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 01/02/11 10:17 PM
Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 27086
and most of the interesting stuff was from Ryabko's students and his son


Because Ryabko had a day job. I was sleeping in his house. I did learn some useful stuff from MR like how to take a punch without being floored, and relying on mechanics, not muscle, how not to get your limbs bashed off with a wooden sword, etc

Also, the second clip starts off with a bullshido throwdown, guy getting punched is not a systema guy.

Reply Post

You must log in to post a reply. Click here to login.