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TMA UnderGround >> The Ultimate Systema thread.


1/2/11 10:25 PM
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jellyman
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Edited: 01/02/11 10:27 PM
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yusul - interesting.

i notice that the asian dude never increases the speed of his punches against vlad, while vlad quickly accelerates his own slaps/ punches.

was it more of a drill (for vlad to try more moves) than some sort of flow sparring? or was the student afraid of an escalating response so he kept his speed and rhythm the same?


Having done demos and sparring with VV maybe I can add my perspective... the point pf the exercise is to demonstrate short work. The idea of short work is that strikes delivered from a short distance can be effective provided there is proper relaxation and mechanics. Pulse the protagonist muscles, relax the antagonist, stuff like that.

So Kwan (Korean-American guy) delivers some attacks and VV shows how to exploit openings. Short work relies on rapid acceleration to be effective and to show that effectiveness so people understand there has to be speed. The idea is that the hits are so close to the target at initiation that there is virtually no telegraph from the pov of the recipient (Vlad says in the clip they must be invisible). VV is showing himself pick the shot slow, and then firing fast. Note how him picking the shot is usually part of some other movement unlike say winding up or shelling up first.
1/2/11 10:28 PM
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jellyman
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Not that I'm a cultist or anything...
1/2/11 10:30 PM
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Missing Glove Tape
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Why did you quote yourself, jelly?

I don't see the connection between the video I posted and what I said about Manolakakis. It's similar to video of Vlad/Kwan though, which is hokey stuff. Nevertheless, Secours' ideas are interesting and I'm tempted to pick up one of his dvds with the Christmas money I've got burning a hole in my pocket. lol

The systema sparring video is laughable.
1/2/11 10:40 PM
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yusul
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''So Kwan (Korean-American guy) delivers some attacks and VV shows how to exploit openings. Short work relies on rapid acceleration to be effective and to show that effectiveness so people understand there has to be speed. ''

ah, so it was a demo with an uke. i was wondering why the koram dude wasn't accelerating his own attacks. vlad didn't really telegraph his punches from what i saw; i like the looseness.
1/2/11 10:44 PM
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jellyman
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Edited: 01/02/11 10:46 PM
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Missing Glove Tape - Why did you quote yourself, jelly?


So I could clarify specific comments



I don't see the connection between the video I posted and what I said about Manolakakis.


Flipping the script.

It's similar to video of Vlad/Kwan though, which is hokey stuff.


Did I make it clear they are not sparring? If so, then what do you find hokey? The notion of short work? Kwan's reaction to getting hit by short work? If the latter, all I can say is, 1) not scripted, and 2) try for yourself.


Nevertheless, Secours' ideas are interesting and I'm tempted to pick up one of his dvds with the Christmas money I've got burning a hole in my pocket. lol

The systema sparring video is laughable.


As I said, a bunch of schools and varying levels of experience. This is a compilation put together by somebody, don't know who though I find it interesting you think it's laughable since Kevin Secours is in the clip.
1/2/11 10:49 PM
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jellyman
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And FYI those ideas in Kevin's clip are not just his. This is fundamentals.
1/2/11 10:51 PM
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jellyman
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Edited: 01/02/11 11:06 PM
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yusul thanks for verifying someone gets what I was driving at there. Maybe the communication problem is not strictly on my end.
1/2/11 10:56 PM
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jellyman - The notion of short work? Kwan's reaction to getting hit by short work? If the latter, all I can say is, 1) not scripted, and 2) try for yourself.


Yes. Kwan's reaction. Just like Manalokakis' video, the partner's reactions are completely inappropriate given the level of contact absorbed. Doesn't matter that it's a demonstration, and actually that makes it worse/less credible.

jellyman - As I said, a bunch of schools and varying levels of experience. This is a compilation put together by somebody, don't know who though I find it interesting you think it's laughable since Kevin Secours is in the clip.


Why? Because I like some of Secours' stuff that means objective criticisms towards him are off limits? lol Nah. Not how it works.

The video is laughable because there's like 20 seconds of actual sparring against resisting opponents out of almost 3 minutes of footage. The glove sparring, while real and similar to the stuff Kostic has shown, was goofy and the guys in it almost as bad as the storm vs. k-sys video.

Ryabko's arm punching was the worst.
1/2/11 10:59 PM
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Missing Glove Tape
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btw, did you read Secours latest blog?

Stimuli vs. "stumu-lie"

I posted it and my thoughts on the other thread.
1/2/11 11:16 PM
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jellyman
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Edited: 01/02/11 11:17 PM
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Missing Glove Tape - btw, did you read Secours latest blog?

Stimuli vs. "stumu-lie"

I posted it and my thoughts on the other thread.

Yeah I read his blog, and we spoke a bit. He isn't talking about Vlad's school. As he said before when he split


ecently, as many of you know, I have made the decision to stop representing Ryabko Systema. After 11 years in the style, this was one of the toughest decisions I have had to make in my martial career, particularly given the tremendous amount this style has given me and the generosity of Vladimir Vasiliev throughout all of my training. Those who know me or my work through DVD's and publications, likely anticipated this. Certainly, at best, my interpretation was always on the fringe of the established community and increasingly over the past 2 years it was simply no longer an accurate indicator of Mikhail's interpretation. Those who do not know me, have been somewhat more shocked and already in my first week I have been overloaded by emails and inquiries so I would like to pre-empt more speculation by setting things straight here.

1-I have the highest level of respect, love and awe for Vladimir. He is without question among the most generous teachers I have ever had, giving knowledge constantly to the point of overflowing. I consider him the highest personification of what it means to be a martial artist, utterly genuine, skilled beyond comparison and as I've said elsewhere, he has forced me to readjust my expectations of human potential. This will never change.


it hasn't changed.

For me, systema is what I learned at VV's school specifically. Everything else is judged by that.

regards Kevin's goofy sparring, goofy is a funny thing, I've met and seen a lot of people who fight goofy until you tango with them and then you don't know wtf.
1/2/11 11:20 PM
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jellyman
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Yes. Kwan's reaction. Just like Manalokakis' video, the partner's reactions are completely inappropriate given the level of contact absorbed


Do much bkb?
1/2/11 11:25 PM
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Missing Glove Tape
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jellyman - He isn't talking about Vlad's school.


He said that?


I have a hard time believing it. Not when he says this:

The Russian Systema world is wrought with blind faith as are so many traditional martial arts. We see so many practitioners blindly obedient to dogma and lost in the attitude of the ideal rather than in the thing itself. Students chicken run around with noodly arms dangling limply at their sides, waving and wiggling their bodies to the point of near OCD compulsiveness in their efforts to manifest their relaxation. Many students, regardless of the scale of the questions, are told they are too tense and to simply breathe. Grand maasters make statements that anything that brings your pulse above 80 bpm is bad Systema whereas most evidence and military research on the Inverted-U of motor performance shows that optimal arousal and performance occurs somewhere above 115 bpm. Many senior practitioners become proficient despite their training, integrating past experiences but giving credit only to their current training and in most cases rely solely on attributes and physicality. As teachers, we must understand that you can't teach attributes. Demonstrations of your own do very little to foster skill in your students. Worst of all, many instructors, rather than humbly submitting to experimentation with the students, contributed to an ever-widening gulf between themselves and their students, as they sit securely on the roof and kick the ladder down so others are uncertain how to get up to the same level.


Seems pretty clear to me that he's addressing Vlad in particular with the last sentence.
1/2/11 11:26 PM
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Missing Glove Tape
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jellyman - 
Yes. Kwan's reaction. Just like Manalokakis' video, the partner's reactions are completely inappropriate given the level of contact absorbed


Do much bkb?


I don't do drugs.
1/2/11 11:28 PM
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Skpotamus
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jellyman - 
Yes. Kwan's reaction. Just like Manalokakis' video, the partner's reactions are completely inappropriate given the level of contact absorbed


Do much bkb?


I did some, of course, we called it NHB back in those days. Nobody reacted the way any of the guys in the systema vids do. Even the guys that got knocked out or TKO'ed didn't react the way those guys do. I'd nominate them for a razzy for bad acting.

I honestly think Scott Sonnon summed it up best "...I won't entertain a dialogue with Systema practitioners here, because it typically becomes a pain in the ass. If you're 'pro' then you have to swallow the nonsense which is inherent in the teachings, but if you're 'con' then you're accused of having an agenda, or being ignorant. " This from a former systema teacher....

Thread in question:
http://www.mixedmartialarts.com/mma.cfm?go=forum.posts&thread=715051&forum=41&page=1&pc=8
1/2/11 11:28 PM
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jellyman
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Missing Glove Tape - 
jellyman - He isn't talking about Vlad's school.


He said that?


I have a hard time believing it. Not when he says this:

The Russian Systema world is wrought with blind faith as are so many traditional martial arts. We see so many practitioners blindly obedient to dogma and lost in the attitude of the ideal rather than in the thing itself. Students chicken run around with noodly arms dangling limply at their sides, waving and wiggling their bodies to the point of near OCD compulsiveness in their efforts to manifest their relaxation. Many students, regardless of the scale of the questions, are told they are too tense and to simply breathe. Grand maasters make statements that anything that brings your pulse above 80 bpm is bad Systema whereas most evidence and military research on the Inverted-U of motor performance shows that optimal arousal and performance occurs somewhere above 115 bpm. Many senior practitioners become proficient despite their training, integrating past experiences but giving credit only to their current training and in most cases rely solely on attributes and physicality. As teachers, we must understand that you can't teach attributes. Demonstrations of your own do very little to foster skill in your students. Worst of all, many instructors, rather than humbly submitting to experimentation with the students, contributed to an ever-widening gulf between themselves and their students, as they sit securely on the roof and kick the ladder down so others are uncertain how to get up to the same level.


Seems pretty clear to me that he's addressing Vlad in particular with the last sentence.


lol
1/2/11 11:34 PM
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jellyman
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I honestly think Scott Sonnon summed it up best "...I won't entertain a dialogue with Systema practitioners here, because it typically becomes a pain in the ass. If you're 'pro' then you have to swallow the nonsense which is inherent in the teachings, but if you're 'con' then you're accused of having an agenda, or being ignorant. " This from a former systema teacher...


I did that when now? Although technically I'm no longer involved in it.

As for your reaction as a pro fighter, you're pro fighters.

I should also add you've never been hit by Vasiliev. like bjron said, they sort of go into you.
1/2/11 11:35 PM
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Missing Glove Tape
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Skpotamus - 
jellyman - 
Yes. Kwan's reaction. Just like Manalokakis' video, the partner's reactions are completely inappropriate given the level of contact absorbed


Do much bkb?


I did some, of course, we called it NHB back in those days. Nobody reacted the way any of the guys in the systema vids do. Even the guys that got knocked out or TKO'ed didn't react the way those guys do. I'd nominate them for a razzy for bad acting.

I honestly think Scott Sonnon summed it up best "...I won't entertain a dialogue with Systema practitioners here, because it typically becomes a pain in the ass. If you're 'pro' then you have to swallow the nonsense which is inherent in the teachings, but if you're 'con' then you're accused of having an agenda, or being ignorant. " This from a former systema teacher....

Thread in question:
http://www.mixedmartialarts.com/mma.cfm?go=forum.posts&thread=715051&forum=41&page=1&pc=8



I remember that thread. These are my favorite bits:


Sonnon - After 15 years of investigation throughout the former USSR, I found even Sambo to be an onion with no center. You'll never receive a straight answer on the paranormal, because you need to be a true-believer for them to discuss it with you... but like I said, they will always allude to an even deeper layer of the onion. From my experience, these 'deeper' supernatural teachings are always religio-nationalistic (and they are not considered supernatural since they emit from G-d and for the Motherland: very 'natural' IOW.) You will of course have enthusiastic apologists who will cry "lost in translation."


Sonnon - Psychic Energy: there is absolutely no confusion in its translation. IME, it's taught precisely as Rx'd by the English language meaning the phrase indicates. Culturally, Russian research sees no conflict between psychic (parapsychological) and psychological specifically because of the past (and probably current) designation of parapsychology as a legitimate science. There's some value in walking into the mysts of the esoteric, since it challenges scientific preconceptions and 1 out 100 wild goose chases may come up with some fruitful discovery. But, I don't believe it's a valid way of addressing the practical necessities of martial art.


1/2/11 11:38 PM
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jellyman - I should also add you've never been hit by Vasiliev. like bjron said, they sort of go into you.


Who was it on the other thread who said they went to a systema seminar, took the punches and was not impressed?
1/2/11 11:38 PM
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jellyman
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I did some, of course, we called it NHB back in those days
BKB to me more is specific to a sort of pre Marquis of Queensbury sort of thing.
1/2/11 11:40 PM
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jellyman
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Edited: 01/02/11 11:48 PM
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Missing Glove Tape - 
jellyman - I should also add you've never been hit by Vasiliev. like bjron said, they sort of go into you.


Who was it on the other thread who said they went to a systema seminar, took the punches and was not impressed?

Arthur Fonzerelli. But this is not a video of getting hit in the chest, we're talking about here. And by Fonzie's own description he's not normal either. He wouldn't be apples to apples with Kwan physically.
1/2/11 11:48 PM
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jellyman
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Speaking of Sonnon, how come nobody on the judo forum likes him? I mean, any specific reasons? He used to live there.
1/2/11 11:53 PM
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jellyman
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Anyway, I'm out for now. hope I shed some light and didn't make too many shadows. feel free to disregard of course.
1/3/11 12:28 AM
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yusul
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i don't think sonnon is disliked per se, he's free to post if he wants. some people i remember made fun of his verbose language, but he had a lot of interesting material. from what i remember, he moved away from sambo and more into fitness, and may not have as much interest in the forum.

btw, jellyman, i knew what you were getting at b/c the canadian public education system taught me well;)
1/3/11 3:23 PM
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Skpotamus
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jellyman - 
I did some, of course, we called it NHB back in those days
BKB to me more is specific to a sort of pre Marquis of Queensbury sort of thing.


Then nobody living has since Marquis of Queensbury rules were written in 1865. Any modern bare knuckle experience is going to be from pre gloved mma (called NHB then).


I didn't take the punches at a seminar, but I did from a guy who claimed to have trained systema for about 5 years in Toronto. Was NOT impressed with the punches. He didn't have a lot of impact and really just pushed into you with it and moved you back with them, but caused no damage or pain. If there was a systema school around I'd def go and check it out and report back, but the only group that's even remotely close to me is about an hour and a half away and they won't let me attend since I've not already studied systema.
1/8/11 12:03 PM
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jellyman
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Skopotamus As I said earlier i'm talking about vasiliev's school specifically when I'm talking about legit systema. I've known guys who get it in months, and I've known guys who've been there years and don't get it at all. I've done grappling and striking before I started any systema, in fact I got into systema through word of mouth from the hard core guys in my old gymn. Bare knuckle boxing differs from nhb because it's about standing striking primarily whereas in nhb you typically don't hang in the pocket. And with respect, maybe you just don't know many people who specialize in that sort of thing. Nobody knows everything, not even on the Internet. Phone Post

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