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TMA UnderGround >> The Ultimate Systema thread.


1/9/11 4:29 AM
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Skpotamus
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jellyman - SkopotamusAs I said earlier i'm talking about vasiliev's school specifically when I'm talking about legit systema. I've known guys who get it in months, and I've known guys who've been there years and don't get it at all. I've done grappling and striking before I started any systema, in fact I got into systema through word of mouth from the hard core guys in my old gymn. Bare knuckle boxing differs from nhb because it's about standing striking primarily whereas in nhb you typically don't hang in the pocket. And with respect, maybe you just don't know many people who specialize in that sort of thing. Nobody knows everything, not even on the Internet. Phone Post


So who do you know who specializes in fighting under a sport rule set that was dropped 145 years ago?
1/9/11 10:10 AM
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jellyman
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Well what I mean is boxing and hitting with bare knuckles and bows. In systema we did that as a training drill. Most knowledgable guy I know is vasiliev. Maybe a second would be a guy I know from soviet uzbekistan who used to box when pro boxing was an underground thing over there. He had a few tricks, but not like VV. Things hurt bareknuckle that don't hurt with gloves. And that was my point, and why I asked missing glove tape if he had done any. Phone Post
1/9/11 3:41 PM
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Missing Glove Tape
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lol. Yeah, I've boxed without gloves. No difference other than not being able to hide behind your gloves when you cover up. Never hurt or broke my hands and never noticed a difference in the 'feel' of punches, be they gloved or ungloved. They both hurt!

But again, your reverence for Vlad comes off weird. Yeah, yeah, we all have our heroes and everyone loves Rickson, etc, but no one of any credibility dismisses all others in comparison like the way you do. Rickson is special, has a deep, freaky understanding of jiu-jitsu and movement, but there are plenty of other amazing people in jiu-jitsu, too.
1/10/11 2:04 AM
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yusul
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^when you punch with gloves, there is generally more of 'push' feel to them; if you think about it, there is padding between your fist and and the target that a fist has to cover, after the glove makes initial contact with the opponent's skin.

there are different ways to 'whip/release' a fist without a glove although you can still push, and i think many boxers do. the boxer that doesn't for sure is rjj. i would also argue that mayweather doesn't as well watching his footage.

i'm positive fedor's punch hurts worse without the glove, but i'm not sure how the systema guys punches feel. it might be pretty similar, as vlad's punches look loose on youtube.

i sparred with my friend who was trained in military san shou in the 90's and he used a techniques his chinese instructor in enlgish called a 'whipping hook'. it felt different from a boxer's punch and looked more like fedor's punch than an orthodox boxer[s punch.
1/10/11 2:19 AM
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Skpotamus
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I would just love to see someone post a video of actual sparring at full speed or fighting and using systema. From what everyone has posted, you have to know how to wrestle, box, etc before you study it to get anything useful out of it.
1/10/11 7:58 AM
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jellyman
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Edited: 01/10/11 8:05 AM
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yusul - ^when you punch with gloves, there is generally more of 'push' feel to them; if you think about it, there is padding between your fist and and the target that a fist has to cover, after the glove makes initial contact with the opponent's skin.

there are different ways to 'whip/release' a fist without a glove although you can still push, and i think many boxers do. the boxer that doesn't for sure is rjj. i would also argue that mayweather doesn't as well watching his footage.

i'm positive fedor's punch hurts worse without the glove, but i'm not sure how the systema guys punches feel. it might be pretty similar, as vlad's punches look loose on youtube.

i sparred with my friend who was trained in military san shou in the 90's and he used a techniques his chinese instructor in enlgish called a 'whipping hook'. it felt different from a boxer's punch and looked more like fedor's punch than an orthodox boxer[s punch.


I once bought a military san shou book written by this guy in toronto back before I got into systema, I remember it had some neat stuff, worked in sparring too.

And you're right of course, you have to feel it to know. Not everyone hits like VV of course but he does have a technique to it. And yeah, no gloves and no target restrictions opens up a lot more strikes.
1/10/11 8:00 AM
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jellyman
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Edited: 01/10/11 8:01 AM
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Skpotamus - I would just love to see someone post a video of actual sparring at full speed or fighting and using systema. From what everyone has posted, you have to know how to wrestle, box, etc before you study it to get anything useful out of it.

Well, I can't put myself forward as someone without a background before systema, but those twins sparring with kwan I know have done nothing else. Kwan himself I understand used to be into Maphilindo
1/10/11 8:05 AM
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jellyman
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Missing Glove Tape - lol. Yeah, I've boxed without gloves. No difference other than not being able to hide behind your gloves when you cover up. Never hurt or broke my hands and never noticed a difference in the 'feel' of punches, be they gloved or ungloved. They both hurt!

But again, your reverence for Vlad comes off weird. Yeah, yeah, we all have our heroes and everyone loves Rickson, etc, but no one of any credibility dismisses all others in comparison like the way you do. Rickson is special, has a deep, freaky understanding of jiu-jitsu and movement, but there are plenty of other amazing people in jiu-jitsu, too.

I don't revere him, I just think he's a good guy making an honest living.
1/15/11 12:21 AM
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yusul
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''I once bought a military san shou book written by this guy in toronto back before I got into systema, I remember it had some neat stuff, worked in sparring too.''

michael (i think mitzui?) hui worked at u of t; i worked out with 2 of his students and met him once (maybe twice; it was a while ago). nice guy; last i heard he moved to LA to finish his doctorate and was married to a hot blonde woman. that more than anything, should prove the effectiveness of his art.
6/10/11 12:23 PM
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Otsuka
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yusul - ''I once bought a military san shou book written by this guy in toronto back before I got into systema, I remember it had some neat stuff, worked in sparring too.''

michael (i think mitzui?) hui worked at u of t; i worked out with 2 of his students and met him once (maybe twice; it was a while ago). nice guy; last i heard he moved to LA to finish his doctorate and was married to a hot blonde woman. that more than anything, should prove the effectiveness of his art.


Matthew (Mizhou) Hui was his name. I trained with him and his crew at U of T for about 2 years before he left for LA. Very direct and effective techniques. He also had a second book called "Effective Techniques For Unarmed Combat". I wonder how he's doing now... and if he's still teaching MA. He knew his shit for real.
6/10/11 12:32 PM
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yusul
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i heard he was teaching a bit here and there but was focused on his academia. i wouldn't be surprised if he didn't teach ma anymore.
6/11/11 9:13 AM
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Otsuka
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Yeah, I think he's more focused in his scientific research these days. But I think he will always have a small crew of students wherever he goes. After he left, I started BJJ, and didn't do much striking since. But to this day, I still catch strikers with the "whipping hook" in sparring consistently.

Interestingly, he has attended one of Vlad Vasiliev's seminars before, and wrote an article about the Sino-Soviet border conflicts for the Journal of Asian Martial Arts, and had wanted to include Vlad in the article. I don't know if Vlad declined or what the story was. Now this just got me all nostalgic... gotta dig for that article now!
6/12/11 12:56 AM
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yusul
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it's inside kungfu. if you don't mind me asking, who did you train with? i know that matthew have different guys at different times while at u of t.
6/12/11 9:48 AM
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Otsuka
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yusul - it's inside kungfu. if you don't mind me asking, who did you train with? i know that matthew have different guys at different times while at u of t.


Well, I started off training under Tony, the Chinese Jamaican dude. Then he introduced me to Matthew and the crew, and they invited me to train at U of T with them. There was Igor, Andre, Jason (I think that's his name... Chinese guy who is a doctor?)... and some other randoms who would come by once in a while. Good times.
6/12/11 11:07 AM
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yusul
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thanks, andre is a very good friend of mine and i met igor a few times. i'll ask him who jason is.
6/13/11 7:47 AM
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Otsuka
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Cool. tell Andre Eddy says hi! if he doesn't remember me, we went to a tournament in Cleveland together with Matthew, Igor, Tony, and Jason, way back in '96 I think. He and Igor competed in the San Da, Matthew gave a demo and a seminar. Old school!
6/13/11 11:02 AM
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yusul
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sorry, ante. was late at night. lol. i'll tell him eddy says high. ante told me had the flu during that comp, but has a nice belt, lol.
6/14/11 5:08 AM
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Otsuka
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Oh yeah, Ante... it's been too long! lol
12/14/11 2:07 PM
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JolietJake
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Zero1 -  I´am a blackbelt in BJJ and I´am doing Systema since 2008.

It´s amazing for me at my level more important than mine BJJ and influences my grappling ability.

However 99% of the people who are training it don´t have a clue because it is not an easy art.

It has a lot to do with body mechanics, relaxation and breathing and it will give you creativity and ability to improvise.

If you are able to punch Systema style you can knock people out from sitting positions or on the ground. Is it easy? No but if you are an athlete and looking to more subtle solutions for fighting this is something you should check out.

I learn from Alex Kostic who trained with Vladimir for over 10 years and he is amazing yet I think Vladimir is even more on a different level.....

Not for everyone but for me it  is just amazing......


This is a good assesment. I just got done with a 40 hour class of systema designed for law enforcement/military.

It really taught me to study the 'structure' of the body and how easily you can break someones structure which can lead to taking them to the ground. The relaxation and breathing aspects were things I already knew from years of training.

The ground stuff was a bit weird for me because I have a BJJ background, but I can see it working for the regular joe who's not fighting a trained opponent.

All in all, it's interesting and is definetly something that can be used to compliment your current style. I had a hard time with all the slow mo stuff too. I guess doing it slow must develop 'muscle memory' for when it happens fast? But as someone already said, wouldn't the timing be off when it happens for real?
12/14/11 8:14 PM
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cdueck
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I think as your skills and ability to relax improve the speed and power will go up. There is some video's on youtube of some old Russian military guys going pretty close to live speed in there training. 

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