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HolyGround >> Gay sex again.....


9/23/10 3:36 PM
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zealot66
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 http://liveshots.blogs.foxnews.com/2010/09/23/pastor-releases-statement-to-sex-scandal/?test=latestnews




9/24/10 1:10 AM
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the rooster
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Paul talks about gays who converted. Homosexuality has been around for eons (along with promiscuity, incest, bestiality, adultery, etc.) and all kinds of other sexual sins. And some that were "indulged" by the children of God.

9/24/10 1:46 PM
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zealot66
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 This whole priest thing, ted haggard, now this guy  the pastor of a 24k member church. Just makes me wonder how warped people who become so powerful are in their own minds. Just more reasons to junk traditional preachers and christianity.
9/26/10 9:40 PM
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reverend john
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Power in all its forms allows for abuse, and I would say leads to it. Though power can manifest in many ways, even in small groups, we must go back to a life and faith that seeks to bring health, and cooperation not consumerism, and warped power systems

rev
9/27/10 2:33 PM
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Robert Wynne
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Gay sex again.....
(4) [129] by zealot66

No..the last time you smelled of beer...took two cans of lysol to get the smell out of the room.
9/27/10 9:51 PM
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zealot66
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 this man proclaims on top of proseperity, 'that I am not a perfect man but I am not the man the media portrays me to be.= guuiillllttyyyyy.

Bad thread title but how many closet homo's are running christendom ? 
9/27/10 10:51 PM
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Lahi
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I really wonder how many people struggle with same-sex attraction that we have no idea about. I would bet its a lot more than most people think.
9/27/10 11:10 PM
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the rooster
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zealot: This whole priest thing, ted haggard, now this guy the pastor of a 24k member church. Just makes me wonder how warped people who become so powerful are in their own minds. Just more reasons to junk traditional preachers and christianity.

and...Bad thread title but how many closet homo's are running christendom ?

me: zealot, that's stupid. That whole gay mayor of 'frisco thing, then barney frank, a congressman who wields so much power. Just more reasons to dump democrats.

Or hollywood. How many gays in hollywood. Or rock stars? Or in porno vid's?

I mean, this is really dumb. Homosexuality is clearly part of the universal condition of sin in man. It's been part of the ruling class, the affluent, the bored, the curious, the abused whatever.

It's not as if Christianity isn't filled with wolves in lambs clothings, those struggling with sin, those redeemed from sin...sexual, or not...
9/28/10 4:55 PM
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zealot66
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 My point was to pass along the info on this pastor and another one bites the dust who preached heavily against homosexuality and was doing it in his own life. The Ted Haggard thing kind of suprised me but on reviewing him it wasnt hard to believe. Its a frightful thing to think of the power pastors have over congregations, especially powerful ones. Men ascend to a place of annointed by God when they are really just good con men. 

The sick part is they know their lies and continue to live and preach. I cant stand lying. When I have had to lie in the past, I just felt sick inside because its a betrayal of trust. I just dont live that way. Couldnt it just be an affair with an attractive secretary ? Why is the Gay thing happening so much ?
9/28/10 5:47 PM
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Lahi
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Maybe I'm too cynical, but I get suspicious when someone is so anti-gay that it becomes a focal point of their ministry.
9/28/10 7:04 PM
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reverend john
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If u smelt it u dealt it
9/28/10 7:53 PM
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zealot66
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 I think that thou dost protest too much.........Any meth and ky available. Im going on a missions trip.
9/28/10 8:16 PM
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reverend john
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hey did you get my text?
its from a new number
rev
9/29/10 12:00 AM
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the rooster
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zealot: My point was to pass along the info on this pastor and another one bites the dust who preached heavily against homosexuality and was doing it in his own life.

me: and how many priests, pastors, etc are also thieves, abusive, liars, etc? I mean, are ministers human and subject to all the sins that anybody else is? If so, should they stop preaching against sin if they themselves struggle with (fill in the blank...lying, stealing, lust, adultery, etc.)?

I guess if you are practicing blatant sin (adultery, homosexulaity, theft, etc) then it's probably time to step down. But I don't really find it suprising.

you: The Ted Haggard thing kind of suprised me but on reviewing him it wasnt hard to believe. Its a frightful thing to think of the power pastors have over congregations, especially powerful ones. Men ascend to a place of annointed by God when they are really just good con men.

me: alot like politicans, athletes, movie stars, rock stars, whatever.

you: The sick part is they know their lies and continue to live and preach. I cant stand lying. When I have had to lie in the past, I just felt sick inside because its a betrayal of trust. I just dont live that way. Couldnt it just be an affair with an attractive secretary ? Why is the Gay thing happening so much ?

me: maybe because the culture is actually becoming tolerant of it and so it's more pervasive? I don't know. I don't think Israel was struggling with homosexuality because the culture was so anti homosexual, so gender specific.

lahi: Maybe I'm too cynical, but I get suspicious when someone is so anti-gay that it becomes a focal point of their ministry.

me: like Moses or Paul ;-)
9/29/10 12:27 AM
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reverend john
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wasn't a focal point, the references to social justice far outweigh the mentions of homosexuality, and Paul's references were mostly to do with temple prostitution. But you know that.

rev
9/29/10 4:15 PM
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zealot66
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 No John, send me one and Ill bookmark your #
9/29/10 4:20 PM
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zealot66
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 Hey, I know that the majority of preachers out there arent knocking down six figures. I recently read that the megchurch pastor is making well over 150k. Ill try and link the article. It makes it a lucrative proposition to become the pastor. The business is built, you build a staff then preach on sundays and whatever else looks pastoral. The whole megachurch thing has transformed alot of christendom in the last 15 years. I think money and power corrupt. We transpose our views of rockstar status on them and they perform accordingly. Is it a cultural thing in America or is it pandemic. I just dont get it. Jesus is sitting out back near a dumpster scrounging for food along with missionaries spreading the gospel while new carpet is being installed. hard pill to swallow.
10/1/10 9:50 PM
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the rooster
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rev:wasn't a focal point, the references to social justice far outweigh the mentions of homosexuality, and Paul's references were mostly to do with temple prostitution. But you know that.

me: that's not true. Moses wasn't talking about temple prostitution. It wasn't a focal point in Israel at Jesus' time because the gender distinctions were imbedded in their society.

And paul's references don't say anything about temple prostitution. They are in reference to a whole litany of common sins (violence, lying, etc).

The entirety of scripture starts with Adam and Eve and ends with God and His bride. There is no model for homosexuality and certainly not limited temple prostitution.

That's like saying that the admnition against killing was meant towards sacrifices in the temple.

I don't get where you guys come from man.
10/1/10 9:52 PM
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the rooster
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z: Hey, I know that the majority of preachers out there arent knocking down six figures. I recently read that the megchurch pastor is making well over 150k.

me: yeah and I don't get that.

you: Ill try and link the article. It makes it a lucrative proposition to become the pastor. The business is built, you build a staff then preach on sundays and whatever else looks pastoral. The whole megachurch thing has transformed alot of christendom in the last 15 years. I think money and power corrupt.

me: agreed

you: We transpose our views of rockstar status on them and they perform accordingly. Is it a cultural thing in America or is it pandemic. I just dont get it. Jesus is sitting out back near a dumpster scrounging for food along with missionaries spreading the gospel while new carpet is being installed. hard pill to swallow.

me: I'm not sure JEsus was ever scrounging by a dumpster??

He seems to have voluntarily ate, and voluntarily fasted.

He suffered well beyond that on the cross, and His Spirit is with the poor by the dumpster and by the rich rocked out of his brains, high on his money and drugs.

10/1/10 11:01 PM
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Lahi
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Rooster, I attached a video, if you listen at 2:02 the Pastor they're interviewing explains my thoughts a lot better than I can:) If you're interested. I posted this a while back so maybe you've seen it.

I guess where I'm coming from is my past experiences with Pastors who single out homosexuality, but seem to forget many other things listed in scripture that also separate us from God, like gossiping and backstabbing. I'm not saying that God doesn't care about our sexuality, I think He does. But when it is the focus of someones ministry I think they're getting off point, unless God has called them to minister to that particular community. I've know Pastors obessesed with this issue, but never any that fixated on things like gossip.

IMO with sexual sin we are pointed back to our own powerlessness (and God's continued mercy and strength), our need to reach out in love to others so that we can find healing ourselves, and the need for things like accountability and community. So in my understanding a Pastor who is really concerned with helping his community find healing in their sex lives will very quickly be led to face deeper issues. I would say the same I think for any other behavioral struggle that is common for Christians. Getting overly focused on that particular issue seems to get us off track.
10/1/10 11:19 PM
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Lahi
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Edited: 10/01/10 11:29 PM
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I should've said the last two guys sum up my thoughts pretty well. I forgot how good Shane Claiborne's comments were.

My best friend grew up in a Christian Church that was pretty openly hostile towards gays. No one had any clue that he was gay at all. He was popular, good athlete, all that stuff, then came out of the closet in college. He was so messed up from years of being told God hated him, then being rejected by his friends, family, and church, that he tried to kill himself. He lived, and stayed with me and my brother for awhile afterward. But since then he's sunk into years of depression, and even cut me off.

I've had a family member and another good friend go through similar experiences due to struggles with same sex attraction, and being told they are evil and going to Hell for their whole lives. So if I feel a little strongly on this issue, it comes from these expereinces. I just don't see Jesus treating gay folks the way I've seen them treated by an aweful lot of Christians.
10/2/10 2:00 AM
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reverend john
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the rooster - rev:wasn't a focal point, the references to social justice far outweigh the mentions of homosexuality, and Paul's references were mostly to do with temple prostitution. But you know that.

me: that's not true. Moses wasn't talking about temple prostitution. It wasn't a focal point in Israel at Jesus' time because the gender distinctions were imbedded in their society.

And paul's references don't say anything about temple prostitution. They are in reference to a whole litany of common sins (violence, lying, etc).

The entirety of scripture starts with Adam and Eve and ends with God and His bride. There is no model for homosexuality and certainly not limited temple prostitution.

That's like saying that the admnition against killing was meant towards sacrifices in the temple.

I don't get where you guys come from man.


Dude, seriously, I said that it wasn't the focal point throughout the entire bible it talks more about social justice issues than homosexuality, or even our sexuality. I didn't say it wasn't mentioned. I didn't say sexual sin was not sin, nor that it wasn't important to be sexually pure. I didn't say anything about the Old Testament at all. What I said was most (not all) of the references to homosexuality in our english translations, have language that ties them to temple prostitution.

I don't know what the hell happened but you just jumped to a million conclusions for no good reason, and I think you owe me an apology

rev
10/2/10 1:14 PM
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Grakman
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Edited: 10/02/10 1:19 PM
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 I'm not sure about the references to temple prostitution either, rev. I've seen some of the pro-gay literature on the subject and to me it seems very weak at best. You're talking about a culture that would stone a person to death for homosexual behavior and then saying Paul was only referring to temple prostitution.. kinda weak sauce. I'm open minded enough to be corrected though, if the sources and evidence point to it.

rev, do you think that sex outside of marriage is sinful, for hetero couples?

I see concern for social justice towards the poor and orphans and so on in the Gospels but honestly imo the rest of the NT seems to me to be more about sin rather than taking care of the downtrodden. I believe it's about both as treating the lower classes badly is a sin, as is mistreating any person regardless of class. Charity extends beyond money and one can be charitable even towards those with money, i.e. praying for them, not holding a grudge, being patient and kind, etc.

When Jesus said he would draw all men to himself, he wasn't kidding. His words, his life, his character, and his persona have drawn everyone from social anarchists to Christian dominionists to him, he has drawn the gay and the straight, the atheist who spends all his time critiquing Jesus to the fundie preacher who does nothing but preach Jesus day and night; the rich and the poor alike find solace and comfort in him. Amazing.
 
10/2/10 1:53 PM
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Lahi
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Grakman, you see the NT after the Gospels as being more legalistic then, rather than concerned with healing sinners (all of us) and reconciling them to God?
10/2/10 2:05 PM
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Grakman
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Lahi - Grakman, you see the NT after the Gospels as being more legalistic then, rather than concerned with healing sinners (all of us) and reconciling them to God?

 I think what you have said here is a false dichotomy.  Paul preaches against a number of sins and says that none of those will inherit the Kingdom of God; yet that is what some of you were and are no longer. Is that legalistic, wholistic, healing, or what would you call it? 

What is your definition of repentance? "Repent, and be baptized washing away thy sins, calling upon the name of the Lord." He didn't say repent and wash away thy social justic inequities, he didn't say wash away thy negative stereotypes of people, he said 'wash away thy sins'.

"If you believe in your heart, and confess with your mouth, that Jesus Christ was raised from the dead, you will be saved." What exactly is that we are being saved from?

Work out your salvation with fear and trembling:


Hebrews 10:26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left,
Hebrews 10:29 How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?
2 Peter 2:21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.

Are those legalistic statements? What do they mean?

I'm not trying to proof text here; I fully realize that Scripture abounds with loving words about kindness, forgiveness, healing etc. But we have to take things in their totality and not just sort of overlook the things that we don't want to see. There are certain things, behaviors, actions, that are called sin in the Scripture and the gist of the NT and Christianity itself is that Jesus Christ died to save us from those sins, their penalties, and their effects (if not more or other reasons.) There is debate about how this is done but the purpose of his death has been pretty clear for millenia. Lying, stealing, fornication, 'men who lie with men', adultery, murder, etc... these are sins, if we are to believe the Bible, no matter what our anything goes it's all relative feel good culture believes.

We shouldn't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

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