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10/2/10 2:49 PM
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Grakman
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The 'gay' deathstyle:

http://www.onenewsnow.com/Perspectives/Default.aspx?id=1191022

10/2/10 3:32 PM
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Lahi
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Grakman - 
 I think what you have said here is a false dichotomy.  Paul preaches against a number of sins and says that none of those will inherit the Kingdom of God; yet that is what some of you were and are no longer. Is that legalistic, wholistic, healing, or what would you call it? 




Want to get back to this later, I wasn't trying to pigeon-hole Paul on one side or the other as far as legalism goes, just trying to understand where you were coming from in your earlier comments.
10/2/10 3:53 PM
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Ridgeback
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 Lahi,

This Orthodox layman did a couple of podcasts on homosexuality awhile ago that I think you might find interesting.  

http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/stevethebuilder
10/2/10 4:28 PM
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reverend john
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I think u all are misunderstanding me. The primary or focal point of the scriptures is christs redemptive work. Now christs primary message was the kingdom of god The kingdom of god encompassed social political economic and personal morality all embraced in an atmosphere of love and forgiveness

Therefore the issue is not either or it's both and. I harp on one more than the other because I feel it is neglected and is more important as it imitates the incarnational method and teachings of Jesus with Jesus saying how u treat the poor and marginalized is how you treat him

Rev
10/2/10 4:28 PM
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reverend john
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I think u all are misunderstanding me. The primary or focal point of the scriptures is christs redemptive work. Now christs primary message was the kingdom of god The kingdom of god encompassed social political economic and personal morality all embraced in an atmosphere of love and forgiveness

Therefore the issue is not either or it's both and. I harp on one more than the other because I feel it is neglected and is more important as it imitates the incarnational method and teachings of Jesus with Jesus saying how u treat the poor and marginalized is how you treat him

Rev
10/2/10 4:39 PM
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the rooster
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lahi: I guess where I'm coming from is my past experiences with Pastors who single out homosexuality, but seem to forget many other things listed in scripture that also separate us from God, like gossiping and backstabbing. I'm not saying that God doesn't care about our sexuality, I think He does. But when it is the focus of someones ministry I think they're getting off point, unless God has called them to minister to that particular community. I've know Pastors obessesed with this issue, but never any that fixated on things like gossip.

me: you know it's interesting Lahi, because I've gone to a "bible based" Pentecostal church for 20 years and I've heard homosexuality mentioned maybe once over the pulpit. It's not a focus because the it's not been a problem for the congregation. Typically, as you mentioned, the sermons are more about private sins (lust, coveting, etc) or those "little sins" (backstabbing, gossiping, lying, etc.).

I think people tend to be aggressive "against" homosexuality because we have a culture that says it's ok, supported by "science" saying it's ok, and a segment of the homosexual community who are aggressive, confrontational and "in your face".

If there was the same push for pro adulterers, pro bestiality, etc. I would feel the same way. I feel the same way about aggressive abortionist or aggressive hedonists.

Maybe that helps explain some of the more vocal push back.
10/2/10 4:42 PM
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the rooster
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by the way, Lahi, I'm sorry abouty your friend. I have friends who are pinko commies :-), gay, promiscuous, etc. I myself was radically lost so I understand and am certainly far from perfect. I hope and pray for your friend.

rev: What I said was most (not all) of the references to homosexuality in our english translations, have language that ties them to temple prostitution.

me: yeah, hmmm...never caught that in my readings.

rev: I don't know what the hell happened but you just jumped to a million conclusions for no good reason, and I think you owe me an apology.

me: I'm sorry. I probably jumped in a little aggressively, doggone latin blood. My apologies. I don't agree with you all the time, but appreciate your posts.
10/2/10 4:44 PM
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the rooster
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rev: I harp on one more than the other because I feel it is neglected and is more important as it imitates the incarnational method and teachings of Jesus with Jesus saying how u treat the poor and marginalized is how you treat him


me: well rev, if it's any consolation, the hundreds of professional brokers I call on at my job seem (even the very secular) to think that if things do not change dramatically in the next 2 or 3 years, we will all be part of the poor and marginalized :-)

yay!
10/2/10 5:13 PM
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Grakman
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Edited: 10/02/10 5:25 PM
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Re: the emphasis on homosexuality today, I think it is indeed because of the social dynamics at work. There is an agenda to see homosexuality accepted as normal, to the point that it is taught as acceptable to elementary school kids. The ranting and raving against it is a counter to the ranting and raving on the left. I imagine were homosexuality kept to a personal choice between people in their bedroom there would be little said about it in the pulpit. But once you start holding parades and protests and so on, demanding special victim status... people are going to react. Like the gay marriage issue, civil unions granting same government rights aren't enough, they want to call it marriage despite thousands of years of it not being 'marriage.' and please spare me the slavery comparison. It's not valid.

I don't see any Proud Gossiper buttons or National Association of the Covetous out there but if there were, and they pushed agendas to disrupt the public with speaking ill of others and slander, people would fight back. If the NAC had plans on teaching your kids to lure away spouses if they desired them, people would try to stop that, too. The government began taxing cigarettes ostensibly to help offset medical bills due to lung cancer. They pass seatbelt and helmet laws to cut back on medical expenses and 'for own safety.' they want to change the way we live and tax the air we breathe because of global warming , to protect us all - yet, they harp constantly on the AIDS epidemic and how dangerous it is to all of us, why is there no law or tax or penalty associated with homosexual behavior? My insurance costs are higher if I smoke or ride a motorcycle but you can't even ask if a person is gay despite the increased risk of illness or death brought on by such behavior? Lol Phone Post    
10/2/10 5:50 PM
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reverend john
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Edited: 10/02/10 8:36 PM
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The problem is people aren't barred from ministry for being prideful or greedy they are actually sought out for these things ( tho not directly). People are not bullied in grade school for being a gossip or anxious. People are not called promiscuous as a derogatory term in fact it's even ok for a girl to b a ho now

If we are going to practice justice and live mercy we have to realize that it takes a generation for the victims to stop being reactionary sometimes more

Rev
10/2/10 9:57 PM
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Grakman
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reverend john - The problem is people aren't barred from ministry for being prideful or greedy they are actually sought out for these things ( tho not directly). People are not bullied in grade school for being a gossip or anxious. People are not called promiscuous as a derogatory term in fact it's even ok for a girl to b a ho now

If we are going to practice justice and live mercy we have to realize that it takes a generation for the victims to stop being reactionary sometimes more

Rev

 I don't know rev, saying that it's ok to be promiscuous now as a way to defend open public homosexuality is maybe not the way to go in a conversation about sin and salvation. :P  That kinda proves the point that we do NOT want homosexuality accepted if we don't want promiscuity to be acceptable, doesn't it?
10/2/10 10:21 PM
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reverend john
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No,that is not the point at all. Promiscuity is not causing people to be persecuted in high school and college ect, in fact its expected. If you aren't sleeping around you are weird. But even in todays society gay men and women (much more particularly men) are being tormented for being gay. Even if they don't participate in homosexual sex, just being "gayish" is enough to get people beaten up. When a people group is dis empowered and persecuted for a long time, when they get even a little hint of relief they will not only try and get out of that persecution, but throw their liberty in the face of all.

Now I have wrestled with this issue for a long time. I have many friends, and even people that lived in our community houses that were gay. Many tried to suppress it and "become straight" never once seen that work for a man I knew personally though it happens, a few times for women. Most tried to just be celibate, which in most peoples cases is like masturbation when you're 18, the more you decide you are never going to do it again, the more you think about it non stop. Most fell in some way regularly. And some have decided to have a sexuality that is expressed in the same way as the heterosexuality is properly expressed in the Christian community (no not the 90 percent of christian singles who are actually sexually active, though might not be participating in vaginal intercourse) but actually trying to have meaningful romantic but non sexual relationships with only one person unless they enter into a "marriage" which would be monogamous.

I have come to believe that it is hypocritical to accept certain sins and not others. And if I knowing accept my own sins, even the ones I struggle with repeatedly. Then I have no moral basis for judging others. But I do believe the church is to grow together towards health. This is what my friend and mentor Dave Andrews has taught me, and what they practice in their community. They look at sexuality as any other part of our lives. There are hierarchies of need. Many are in actual places in their sexuality that are a danger to themselves and others. The first step in health is ending those behaviors and being healed of the things that drive that behavior. Others may have sexuality issues that cause them to be a detriment to the community, promiscuity will tear a community up faster than just about anything. And we seek for people to grow in health as they grow in discipleship past this. And so on. In regards to homosexuality, I believe that it is a sin to partake in homosexual sex. But I believe that there are times when heterosexual sex can be more dangerous and less healthy. The goal is that married people would have a sex life that does not victimize, manipulate, or in any way injure their partner, and is thoroughly enjoyable, that single people would stay celibate until they are married, and in my opinion, that gay people would abstain from sex as well. This is the goal of health that would please God. The point is not where you are, but that this is the direction you are heading. This allows the church to be loving, affirming, and encouraging to all people in their sexuality.

rev
10/2/10 11:24 PM
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Grakman
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rev, I appreciate what you're saying. I know you have reams of anecdotal personal evidence to back up what you are saying. I won't go into it to personally but let's just say I know something about this issue first hand as well.

Regardless, tt seems to me that what we as a society are striving for is to treat homosexual behavior as acceptable as promiscuity. You write that sleeping around is acceptable and no one is ostracized for sleeping around, in fact is is often lauded and rewarded. I don't think the answer is making more sins as acceptable as other sins that are already accepted.  Even adultery is just another lifestyle choice between the husband and wife, right?

We want to get homeless people off the streets and make sure everyone is fed and cared for; is that all God wants for his people a full belly and a roof over their heads? Is it acceptable to God that a person help the poor and homeless but doesn't point out that that maybe just maybe some of the things they are doing may be wrong? These are honest questions I'm not being sarcastic. I don't know how this works in the orthopraxy you espouse, I mean what IS acceptable before God? I know we aren't supposed to bomb people and rip them off and drive them into corporate indentured servitude... but what about calling people to holiness?


10/2/10 11:34 PM
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Ridgeback
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 I am not sure that you two fundamentally disagree.  After all, the Rev's description of health and healing is considered homophobic by many people these days who call themselves Christian and I have never seen him compromise on the point that homosexual sex is sin.  Many people believe that gay people should have the right to gay sex and anything short of that declaration is bigoted and hateful so basically the position the Rev. takes tends to gain him enemies from the fundamentalists and the liberals.
10/2/10 11:49 PM
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reverend john
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Grakman - rev, I appreciate what you're saying. I know you have reams of anecdotal personal evidence to back up what you are saying. I won't go into it to personally but let's just say I know something about this issue first hand as well.

Regardless, tt seems to me that what we as a society are striving for is to treat homosexual behavior as acceptable as promiscuity. You write that sleeping around is acceptable and no one is ostracized for sleeping around, in fact is is often lauded and rewarded. I don't think the answer is making more sins as acceptable as other sins that are already accepted.  Even adultery is just another lifestyle choice between the husband and wife, right?

We want to get homeless people off the streets and make sure everyone is fed and cared for; is that all God wants for his people a full belly and a roof over their heads? Is it acceptable to God that a person help the poor and homeless but doesn't point out that that maybe just maybe some of the things they are doing may be wrong? These are honest questions I'm not being sarcastic. I don't know how this works in the orthopraxy you espouse, I mean what IS acceptable before God? I know we aren't supposed to bomb people and rip them off and drive them into corporate indentured servitude... but what about calling people to holiness?




dude, did you read what I wrote?

Two completely seperate issues. One dealing with the sociology of victimization. Homosexuals are victimized, most other sins are not. Therefore, they protest, and act out as liberation from their second class citizen status. That is why they do the parades and stuff. The identify with each other, and are fighting against the world, the parades say, "yeah, we know you hate us but f you we will flaunt our lives in front of you". It is a social action against oppression. If oppression stops, and we deal with people as people, loving them, caring for them, helping them, eventually the acting out will stop. It is then we get out of two sides demonizing each other and walk together towards wholeness, which leads to the completely separate point.

We are all on a journey towards Christlikeness. We all have our sin, we all have our thorns in the flesh. We all are on a trip from sickness to wholeness that will be finished when we die. Look past the foreign nature of "those people's" sin, and embrace them as people that must grow, and heal. Eventually we all want to be sin free, something that will truly only come in the presence of Christ, but it is our growth in Him, throughout our lives that is important.

rev
10/2/10 11:59 PM
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Grakman
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Edited: 10/03/10 12:11 AM
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 Yes, I did read what you wrote.  I understand that they're protesting because of oppression - people a few years ago said that such behavior was unacceptable, some still do. Same with sleeping around outside of marriage, back then kids without fathers were called bastards and ostracized. Now we have women deliberately having kids out of wedlock to get more cash on their welfare programs. We have gone from a shame culture to a guilt culture but somewhere down the line even the feeling of guilt over misdeeds has been lost. You can't call people to repentance if they don't think they are doing anything wrong.  It depends really on what you think is right or wrong and who sets the standards. Obviously our modern secular culture doesn't think anything is wrong except not accepting their ideology.

You wrote that we are all on a journey towards Christlikeness.  Without some type of standard how would one even know what Christlikeness is? How do we know what to strive for? Jesus is forgiving but even he says, 'And go, and sin no more.'

What do you make of the passages in Scripture where Paul says to put those outside of the church who continue in sin? He wrote a strong diatribe against people sleeping with relatives and immorality in the church; the NT even describes it as 'handing such over to Satan,' that even though their flesh be destroyed their spirti may yet be saved. What is the churches responsibility towards it's other members if people within the church membership openly sin? How long is the behavior accepted by the church while they are on the journey to Christlikeness?
 
10/3/10 12:49 AM
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reverend john
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The question is not who is sinning because we all do. The question is who refuses to be growing. I think when people flaunt their sin, we must deal with them. But looking at Jesus, who is the exact representation of God not Paul, I see that Jesus only rejected, and did not accept the haughty, and those that stood against the kingdom of God. Is there a place for decisive action? Of course there is. But even Paul says that we are to go and correct such a one in love, gently and humbly. It is only those that are standing against the kingdom that are to be "handed over to satan" In my opinion, that is someone like Benny Hinn, rather than some poor person struggling with sexuality issues that almost every time stem from horrible abuse or neglect as vulnerable children

rev
10/3/10 12:59 AM
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Grakman
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Edited: 10/03/10 1:00 AM
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ok rev, I'll opt out of the discussion at this point. I don't agree that the only people who should be corrected are people like Benny Hinn; those living in open sin without shame need to be corrected by the church as well. I doubt further discussion on this particular topic will prove beneficial.  Despite our disagreements, our admire what you are trying to accomplish and how you want to live. Keep up the good work.
 
10/3/10 1:59 AM
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Ridgeback
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reverend john - The question is not who is sinning because we all do. The question is who refuses to be growing. I think when people flaunt their sin, we must deal with them. But looking at Jesus, who is the exact representation of God not Paul, I see that Jesus only rejected, and did not accept the haughty, and those that stood against the kingdom of God. Is there a place for decisive action? Of course there is. But even Paul says that we are to go and correct such a one in love, gently and humbly. It is only those that are standing against the kingdom that are to be "handed over to satan" In my opinion, that is someone like Benny Hinn, rather than some poor person struggling with sexuality issues that almost every time stem from horrible abuse or neglect as vulnerable children

rev

 What would you say to a gay friend who was a Christian who decides that he sees nothing wrong with having gay sex and that he feels God has led him to not worry about it?  
10/3/10 10:05 AM
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reverend john
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Grakman - ok rev, I'll opt out of the discussion at this point. I don't agree that the only people who should be corrected are people like Benny Hinn; those living in open sin without shame need to be corrected by the church as well. I doubt further discussion on this particular topic will prove beneficial.  Despite our disagreements, our admire what you are trying to accomplish and how you want to live. Keep up the good work.
 


I didn't say that. I said that the people that should be thrown out of the church and handed over to satan are the people like benny hinn. Those that are in the church including me, must be confronted with our sin.

rev
10/3/10 10:08 AM
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reverend john
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Ridgeback - 
reverend john - The question is not who is sinning because we all do. The question is who refuses to be growing. I think when people flaunt their sin, we must deal with them. But looking at Jesus, who is the exact representation of God not Paul, I see that Jesus only rejected, and did not accept the haughty, and those that stood against the kingdom of God. Is there a place for decisive action? Of course there is. But even Paul says that we are to go and correct such a one in love, gently and humbly. It is only those that are standing against the kingdom that are to be "handed over to satan" In my opinion, that is someone like Benny Hinn, rather than some poor person struggling with sexuality issues that almost every time stem from horrible abuse or neglect as vulnerable children

rev

 What would you say to a gay friend who was a Christian who decides that he sees nothing wrong with having gay sex and that he feels God has led him to not worry about it?  


it depends on whether they are a part of my community, if they are having a monogamous relationship within marriage or marriage commitment. I would be uncomfortable with that, but I don't believe kicking people out of the church and denying them communion (both sacramental and social) is the answer. Maybe it is sometimes.

Believe me, this is coming up for me. It isn't easy. I don't see Jesus turning away hurting people, only proud people.

rev
10/3/10 11:09 PM
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the rooster
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...and of course you understand that gay people and poor people can also be very proud right?
10/3/10 11:40 PM
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Grakman
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the rooster - ...and of course you understand that gay people and poor people can also be very proud right?

 It is, after all, called 'Gay Pride' is it not?

I'm stilll not quite sure what reason one has to be proud of with whom one chooses to have sex.
10/4/10 12:10 AM
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reverend john
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Grakman - 
the rooster - ...and of course you understand that gay people and poor people can also be very proud right?

 It is, after all, called 'Gay Pride' is it not?

I'm stilll not quite sure what reason one has to be proud of with whom one chooses to have sex.


I was playing cricket a few months ago with my team the Compton homies. They are ex bangers from compton and I love playing cricket with them. One of the guys is a mexican guy named Sergio, and on his upper arms he had the tattoos BROWN PRIDE. Now Sergio and I are friends, so I can play with him a bit. I said, "Sergio, I don't understand something"

"whats up rev?"

"you have brown pride tattooed on your arms, and all that means is you are proud of your Latino heritage. But if I tattooed white pride on my arms, I would be a racist! Whats up with that?"

He smiled and said, "I don't know rev, I don't make the rules"

but the truth is, when an oppressed group expresses pride in their own cultural uniqueness, is is empowering to them. When an oppressive group, expresses pride in their uniqueness is tends to be dis-empowering. One says, no matter how hard it is, I am glad to be who I am. The other says, it is good to be in a position of power and privilege.

So of course people can be proud and still be marginalized. People that are too proud to ask for help, can injure their families ect. But this is not the kind of pride that Jesus condemns harshly throughout his ministry.

rev
10/4/10 12:47 AM
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Grakman
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So what will have to happen before white people can be proud of being white again? Phone Post

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