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10/4/10 1:03 AM
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reverend john
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Yeah, I think I am done

thank

rev
10/4/10 2:08 AM
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Grakman
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The brown pride / white pride issue is being beaten to death on the UG, too with Cain Velasquez' 'Brown Pride' tat prominently displayed on his chest. They even seem to be marketing it as white v brown, unfortunately.

I'm sorry I ran you out of the thread. It was a genuine question.  The comments in your post are frequently heard in these types of discussions; I've just never heard what has to happen for our society and / or white people  to no longer be considered oppressive towards minorities. Will it be when white people are no longer a majority? Will it take a shift in the balance of world power from the U.S. to China / India? I really don't know and would like to hear others opinions about what makes our current society so oppressive - is it because we don't have free health care and open borders? The government itself seems to me to be shifting toward totalitarianism, but it doesn't seem to me to be geared towards oppressing minorities; it seems to be geared toward the oppression of people in general.

I think our worldviews are..er, worlds apart in some ways rev.  Nothing wrong with that, we're both just trying to make our way, like you said, a journey to Christlikeness. Same destination, just looking at the road through a different lens.
10/4/10 10:02 AM
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the rooster
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rev:...but the truth is, when an oppressed group expresses pride in their own cultural uniqueness, is is empowering to them. When an oppressive group, expresses pride in their uniqueness is tends to be dis-empowering. One says, no matter how hard it is, I am glad to be who I am. The other says, it is good to be in a position of power and privilege.

me: I think the wholel "oppressed" thing is over done. I'm hispanice and I have never felt "oppressed". when a stupid kid called me a spic or wetback when I was little, I didn't know what it meant and neither did he. We traded blows because his words were mocking and intended to hurt. But it was one individual kid. I don't buy into collective guilt for "white" people as that is rascist as well.

And frankly, "oppressed" minorities play this card as leverage and black mail. You've got Sharpton and Jackson blackmailing corporations to support their lifestyles and their organizations or they will bring heat, and the press and accuse them of some sort of institutional racism. In fact, I think right now the current adminstration is oppressive and rascist (their Attorney General doesn't prosecute crimes equally but for instance dropped the clear case of voter intimidation by the black panthers solely because they were black).

I find that often "oppression" is much more complex. It can be individual, it can be based on ideology, it can be a self loathing, it can be many things.

rev: So of course people can be proud and still be marginalized. People that are too proud to ask for help, can injure their families ect. But this is not the kind of pride that Jesus condemns harshly throughout his ministry.

me: I think the scriptures roundly and soundly condemn all pride...pride in the flesh, pride in position, spiritual pride etc.

I was in church one time and a guy who was an "in and out" kind of guy turned around and started talking to me. He started bragging about how he doesn't shop for designer clothes, and how wrong it is to spend a lot of money on clothes etc. He was a sloppy, dirty looking guy. He took a lot of pride in his spiritual revelation and I felt like he was zinging me specifically because I was in nice dress slacks, wing tip 300.00 shoes, nice shirt etc.

What he didn't know is that I got the shoes at a 2nd hand store for 3 bucks, I got the dress shirt from my nephew who grew out of it and the slacks I had for about 5 years that I bought at a retail store with an employees discount.

Anyway, I often meet people who are lost in sin and proud of their lifestyle.

10/4/10 10:03 AM
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the rooster
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sorry for the mispellings, in a hurry.

Grakman, some great posts. I have to say I agree with you on everything you wrote.
10/4/10 6:18 PM
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zealot66
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 One hole in the argument the Rev makes and I pretty much agree with him on this subject is what to do with Gays ? Shall they remain A sexual the rest of their lives to be christlike ? You have pointed out that about 0% of homosexuals are rehabilitated to become heterosexual. Sexuality doesn't quit until your body stops making hormones. Im beginning to believe that people are born with predispositions beyond their control that makes them gay. perhaps with those predispositions, events surrounding them encourage and bring them into the lifestyle. People recover from drugs, bad behaviour, alcohol and can go on to a better life though they will always be vulnerable to those things. It seems, no one recovers from being gay. Its probably the least succesful sin that can be 'conquered'. What do you tell people who's orientation will never be towards the opposite sex ? Maybe I missed it but definitavely, what is a homosexual supposed to do ? They will never love a man or woman the way a straight person would. 

There doesnt seem to be a good answer. 
10/4/10 8:10 PM
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the rooster
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zealot: You have pointed out that about 0% of homosexuals are rehabilitated to become heterosexual.

me: uh, yeah right z. Where did you get that stat. There's whole ministries and men who *claim* that they are healed. I don't know what else to do but accept their words as much as the gay who says, he/she can't change their ways.

I am a recovered promiscous horn dog. I'm a healed violent men. That propoensity is still there but Ih ave victory over it.

you: Sexuality doesn't quit until your body stops making hormones. Im beginning to believe that people are born with predispositions beyond their control that makes them gay.

me: so God gives people certain predispppositions that are to strong for His word or His Spirit to overcome? My friend, you do not know the POWER OF THE INFILLING OF THE HOLY GHOST! As Paul says, SUCH WERE SOME OF YOU, BUT YOU'VE BEEN WASHED AND HEALED!

YOU: perhaps with those predispositions, events surrounding them encourage and bring them into the lifestyle. People recover from drugs, bad behaviour, alcohol and can go on to a better life though they will always be vulnerable to those things. It seems, no one recovers from being gay. Its probably the least succesful sin that can be 'conquered'.

me:man, that's a purely subjective speculation. It's harder to conquer then promiscuity, adultery, lust, stealing/coveting, gossipying, lying etc!?!?!?!

Man, Jesus came to save us *from* our sins, not save us "in" our sins!

It's cmopletely contrary to the power that the Spirit brings and I know as someone hopelessly, uncontrollably lost to my vices, my flesh and to sin.

The power of Jesus is still active and alive and healing people of ALL sin!
10/4/10 8:36 PM
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Ridgeback
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zealot66 -  One hole in the argument the Rev makes and I pretty much agree with him on this subject is what to do with Gays ? Shall they remain A sexual the rest of their lives to be christlike ? You have pointed out that about 0% of homosexuals are rehabilitated to become heterosexual. Sexuality doesn't quit until your body stops making hormones. Im beginning to believe that people are born with predispositions beyond their control that makes them gay. perhaps with those predispositions, events surrounding them encourage and bring them into the lifestyle. People recover from drugs, bad behaviour, alcohol and can go on to a better life though they will always be vulnerable to those things. It seems, no one recovers from being gay. Its probably the least succesful sin that can be 'conquered'. What do you tell people who's orientation will never be towards the opposite sex ? Maybe I missed it but definitavely, what is a homosexual supposed to do ? They will never love a man or woman the way a straight person would. 

There doesnt seem to be a good answer. 

 I think homosexuality is pretty variable so I wouldn't assume that some people with same sex attraction can't have healthy heterosexual relationships.  With that said, I don't think a Christian with same sex attraction should feel like he has to try to feel straight.  He is called to celibacy though, just like all non-married people are.  That doesn't make people asexual.  Nuns are still women and monks are still men, but people do manage to achieve celibacy.  The only other option is to lend credence to some kind of homosexual relationship and that goes against what has been the clear teaching of Christianity on the subject from day one.  It is true that heterosexual fornication is often given a wink and a nod in certain traditions, but they are just as off the mark.  

And I do believe that living out the faith can lead to either the defeat of passions or at least the diminishing of their control over one's life.  I don't think most traditions of Christianity have this kind of healing power anymore though so it is a double whammy for homosexuals.  

There have been plenty of gay clergy members and monastics in Orthodoxy.  An American monk named Seraphim Rose struggled with same sex attraction early on, and then became celibate the rest of his life.  I am sure he was still gay until his death, but that didn't keep him from becoming Christlike.  He will most likely be called a Saint by the church in the years to come so a gay man can reach the fullness of the stature of Christ in this life through a life of celibacy.  That goal should be more important than being sexually active to any person who calls himself Christian.  Lots of straight people have to give up sex for one reason or another as well so it can be done.
10/4/10 8:52 PM
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reverend john
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I didn't say zero percent it is very rare for homosexual men to "stop being gay" the people that rooster is talking about usually wind up going back to the life style or struggle there whole lives and I know some of the founders of these ministries. The truth is god does sometimes take things away but most of the time we must seek god daily for our help. I still struggle with lust and temptations towards pornography but that doesn't mean I am not filled with gods spirit it just means I must trust god afresh each day. Even the great man of faith Paul had a thorn in his flesh

I do believe celibacy is an option tho not a popular one Jesus and Paul both say it's a preferred way of life

Rev
10/4/10 9:07 PM
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zealot66
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 lol at rooster. Trying to get some payback ? I deserve it but you are just using anecdotal musings. These ministries like Exodus are not very succesful long term. Im going to bed but Ill be back when I can back up what Im trying to say.  I dont usually study homosexuality. My zero percent comment was a non literal interpretation of success stories. Its abysmal. Also, Im not chastising these ministries, I just dont see many success stories. Even married men deal with same sex attraction and 'fall' from time to time. They are still GAY.
10/4/10 10:03 PM
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the rooster
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rev: I didn't say zero percent it is very rare for homosexual men to "stop being gay" the people that rooster is talking about usually wind up going back to the life style or struggle there whole lives and I know some of the founders of these ministries.

me: I don't really know statistically what the numbers are and I'm not sure I compeltely trust the bias of those proving their point anecdotally or statistically either way. I rest in the truth that the power of the Spirit can heal us.

you: The truth is god does sometimes take things away but most of the time we must seek god daily for our help. I still struggle with lust and temptations towards pornography but that doesn't mean I am not filled with gods spirit it just means I must trust god afresh each day. Even the great man of faith Paul had a thorn in his flesh

me: that I TOTALLY AGREE WITH. That is an excellent point. Some healings are immediate, some we battle daily and some, as we gain victory daily, the struggle becomes less, and less shall I say...oppressive?

But I guess that does suggest that being gay and overcoming it isn't really any different then the underlying problem (lust? distorted view of sexuality? pleasure seeking? whatever it is that causes hetero man to struggle with porn or adultery or promiscuous, or "self pleasuring" or whatever).

you: I do believe celibacy is an option tho not a popular one Jesus and Paul both say it's a preferred way of life.

me: agreed.
10/4/10 10:09 PM
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the rooster
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zealot: lol at rooster. Trying to get some payback ?

me:? paybacks?

you: I deserve it but you are just using anecdotal musings. These ministries like Exodus are not very succesful long term.

me: again, not sure how or who I "trust" either way. I do now, "Everyday" Christians, struggling with common universal sins (lust, covetousness, lying, gossip, whatever) that can reveal themselves in very public or ways or very hidden ways. But you can have victory.

you: Im going to bed but Ill be back when I can back up what Im trying to say. I dont usually study homosexuality. My zero percent comment was a non literal interpretation of success stories. Its abysmal. Also, Im not chastising these ministries, I just dont see many success stories. Even married men deal with same sex attraction and 'fall' from time to time. They are still GAY.

No, not in God's eyes. An adulterer in God's eyes, is no longer an adulterer. The violent brute, thief, murderer, etc is no longer that!

1Cr 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

1Cr 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

1Cr 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

1Cr 6:15 Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make [them] the members of an harlot? God forbid.

1Cr 6:16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.

1Cr 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

1Cr 6:18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.

1Cr 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost [which is] in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

1Cr 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.
10/5/10 2:06 AM
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Grakman
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You're right rev, celibacy is HARD baby!

But then again so is giving away all you have to help the poor.


10/5/10 9:02 AM
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reverend john
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And in my opinion we give never ask people to account with their fidelity to kingdom values with their wallet, and if we did we would be considered rude and even legalistic, but when it comes to homosexuality everyone needs to obey or be punished in some way. I don't find it very Christlike.

rev
10/5/10 9:06 AM
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Grakman
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reverend john - And in my opinion we give never ask people to account with their fidelity to kingdom values with their wallet, and if we did we would be considered rude and even legalistic, but when it comes to homosexuality everyone needs to obey or be punished in some way. I don't find it very Christlike.

rev

 rev,  people are constantly asked to give money.  Isn't that one of the knocks against the modern church? Pass the plate;  for a small donation you will receive my new booklet 'God's Blessings for You' - call today!? People are constantly asked to give give give all the time and if you don't give you can be looked down on.
10/5/10 3:10 PM
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the rooster
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My pastor has preached at different times for certain external needs (foreign missions, several boys homes we support, youth ministries) but I noticed struggles with preaching or asking for money. I think it's as Grakman said. sort of a risk of driving people out who thinks it's just another "pay it and claim it" money ministry.

I've heard him maybe twice discuss tithing, offering and sacrificial giving and what was cool is that he did it as both tithing, offering and sacrificial giving of all of your life...your time, your finances, your speech, your prayer time, reading the word, etc. Do minimum of 10, offer more then 10 when you can and at times do sacrificial giving and God will bless the remainder as it's all his. Your health, wealth, your time, your life, everything, it's all his!
10/5/10 3:44 PM
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Grakman
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the rooster - Your health, wealth, your time, your life, everything, it's all his!

 Amen rooster. One of the ways to look at this is that we have nothing of our own - our lives we're given by God and can be taken away at moment's notice by him. Our finances can be lost in a moment with a downturn in the market, a natural disaster, an illness... same with health, everything. So truthfully we are really just stewards of the things that God has given us for our time here.  This is why I don't necessarily see money as evil in and of itself; if some body wasn't making it there wouldn't be anybody to build wells in drought stricken Africa, feeding people, giving away clothing, blankets, medicines, stuff like that. I know in the ideal world there wouldn't be a need to have to give anything away as everyone would already have enough but we don't live in that world yet.
10/5/10 3:45 PM
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TheHawker
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Is there any record of "tithing" in the NT or early church? Isn't that an OT / temple concept? What you find in Acts is Christians pooling their wealth and using it for things like charity, caring for the widows, poor, and orphans.
10/5/10 4:16 PM
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inlikeflynn
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I am a recovered promiscous horn dog. I'm a healed violent men. That propoensity is still there but Ih ave victory over it.


YOU: perhaps with those predispositions, events surrounding them encourage and bring them into the lifestyle. People recover from drugs, bad behaviour, alcohol and can go on to a better life though they will always be vulnerable to those things. It seems, no one recovers from being gay. Its probably the least succesful sin that can be 'conquered'.

me:man, that's a purely subjective speculation. It's harder to conquer then promiscuity, adultery, lust, stealing/coveting, gossipying, lying etc!?!?!?!


In my opinion, this is the type of flawed thinking that has caused the church to fail miserably when trying to minister to homosexuals. It is harder to conquer than promiscuity, adultery, & lust because for a gay person who just has no attraction for the opposite sex, there is no healthy outlet for their natural sexual drive, one of the strongest drives that humans have.

You say you have overcome promiscuity and that's great. But remember, you have a wife and therefore I assume an outlet to channel those drives in the healthy way that God intended. How much harder would it be if you had to just compeletely abstain?

The solution for many homosexuals may be a life of celibacy, but I think it would go a long way if the church as a whole recognized the tremendous burden of that cross and showed campassion and understanding accordingly.
10/5/10 4:48 PM
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zealot66
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 Even our great cultural hero's like Rick Warren cant give a definitive answer. This is a tough subject. If celibacy is the only option, thats like asking a formerly obese person to never overeat. Its in the hierarchy of needs. Hardwired into the brain.
10/5/10 4:52 PM
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zealot66
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Edited: 10/05/10 4:54 PM
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 Here is a somewhat friendly study on Exodus International but disappointing in changing the core of same sex attraction

Ex-Gays?”: A Longitudinal Study of Religiously Mediated Change In Sexual Orientation”.[15] They found:

  • 15% “Success: Conversion”: subjects who reported that they felt their change to be successful, and who reported substantial reductions in homosexual attraction and substantial conversion to heterosexual attraction and functioning;
  • 23% “Success: Chastity”: These were subjects who reported that they felt their change to be successful and who reported homosexual attraction to be present only incidentally or in a way that does not seem to bring about distress, allowing them to live happily without overt sexual activity;
  • 29% “Continuing”: These persons may have experienced modest decreases in homosexual attraction but were not satisfied with their degree of change and remained committed to the change process;
  • 15% “Non-Response”: These persons had experienced no significant sexual orientation change. These subjects had not given up on the change process but may be confused or conflicted about which direction to turn next;
  • 4% “Failure: Confused”: These persons had experienced no significant sexual orientation change and had given up on the change process but without yet embracing gay identity; and
  • 8% “Failure: Gay Identity”: These persons had clearly given up on the change process and embraced gay identity.

They found "no evidence that the type of attempt to change sexual orientation studied here is harmful."

 Ironically the two founders left their marraiges and 'married eachother'. 
Looking at these realistic stats, little in the way of changing sexual attraction is altered. They are always struggling against their nature of being Gay. I dont pretend to understand it or know where it comes from and neither does anyone else. It makes me wonder if its just part of the human condition. Like being born autistic. You can use therapy to change behaviour but you are still autistic. You cant fix broke.
10/5/10 6:28 PM
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Grakman
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 I understand it's a difficult problem (understatement.) Despite what some may think from having read my posts in this thread, I'm not one to condemn people to Hell for being gay.  What I disagree with is the notion, that according to the Bible and / or traditional Christian doctrine is that homosexual conduct is not a sin.

If a person believes the Bible is outdated and that we have advanced beyond the mores of the day in which it was written, and wish to accord homosexuals and said sex acts acceptance in modern society, that's at least an honest position and a fair one. It's the disingenuous 'but the Bible was referring to temple prostitution' and 'it's not a sin if they're married'  type of argument with which I disagree. It's kind of dishonest imo.

I guess though it's no different than a number of other doctrinal issues that could be considered dishonest, like believing the church died out and was reborn when you have millions and millions of Catholic and Orthodox over the centuries who were in the church from the very beginning. :P
10/5/10 7:50 PM
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zealot66
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 All of the bantering back and forth really sidesteps the fact that re orienting a persons sexual attraction is a low percentage thing. Even by Exodus's figures, The best they can do for homosexuals is reduce their conduct which is a good thing, to refrain from their sexual practices and lifestyle but in interviews Ive read even the men who have married still wrestle with same sex attraction. There is something hard wired there. Sexual stimulation is an ingrained hormonal brain function. 

I have never been sexually attracted to a man and find it revolting. Its instinctual. I remember as a kid going through puberty and women and girls just started to appear attractive to me. It wasn't really a conscious decision it just developed that way as for most men. What instinctively causes a man to be attracted from youth to another man in a sexual framework. Im not much for porn because I really dont like watching another man do his business. Looking at women in porn, I much would prefer to see a woman without a man because it just turns me off to see a mans @#$%. 

I guess Im saying that I dont know if you can re wire a brain who's chemistry is attracted to a man. Modification of behaviour seems to be the goal and results of most ministries. Leading them out of a lifestyle. In looking at Exodus, they seem to have a disclaimer that they cant cure a preference only behaviour. It almost acknowledges that some men are born gay, imo.
10/5/10 8:23 PM
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Grakman
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Edited: 10/05/10 8:29 PM
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 Those are all good points zealot, but that doesn't address the point of whether homosexual conduct is permissible or sinful, according to the Bible.

Is pedophilia hardwired into the brain as well?
 
EDITED TO ADD: The way I see it we are discussing two different topics here. One is whether or not homosexuality is normal behavior for those who are gay, with the corrollorary of whether this is inborn or learned or both. Outside of some religious teachings (and perhaps evolutionary biology in that homosexuality is a genetic dead end) the question of whether it is 'moral' or 'immoral' is up to the individual and / or the culture in which he lives.

The second topic is whether or not the Bible teaches that homosexual conduct is immoral and sinful. One can argue that if it is inborn then the Bible should not teach that it is immoral, but frankly there are a number of human traits that appear to be inborn which are immoral, that we are supposed to bring under control as a new creation.

My posts and opinion on this topic are what I believe to be the traditional Biblical teaching about sexual relationships in general, not whether the society at large finds it acceptable, whether it's immoral according to the tenets of some other belief system, whether or not it's innate, etc.
10/5/10 9:17 PM
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the rooster
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I think one other point not addressed is whether the infilling of the Living God's Spirit can give one victory over any sin or if some sin's are greater the the power of His Spirit.

The way I see it, all sins start in the heart and mind and manifest in our "flesh". I don't know what the cause is accept that we are carnal and sinful by nature. I don't buy that it's a more difficult or less difficult "thorn". We all bear our crosses and whatever is our "issue" is hard for us.

(by the way inlikeflynn, I was single for years before I got married and um...having a wife doesn't satisfy your desire for women (plural)and your wife isn't your sex slave, ready to satisfy your needs on the drop of a dime. They get tired, pregnant, sick whatever).

Verse 19 lists a number of sexual sins (which homosexuality would be included) and YOU CAN HAVE VICTORY THROUGH THE POWER OF THE SPIRIT, THE WORD, AND BY GOD'S MERCY AND GRACE!!!

Gal 5:16 [This] I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these]; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and LUSTS.

Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
10/5/10 9:20 PM
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the rooster
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By the way, that's not to say that I have perfection against every sexual struggle I have.

But you can have victory, be perfect in His grace and mercy, have your mind renewed by the spirit and the washing of the word and be delivered.

Some deliveries are immediate, some over time. There are things that would have knocked me out 10 years ago that just don't get me like they used to, and things that I have to fight day by day.

There is grace, healing, mercy, forgiveness, power and a renewing for men and women trapped in the gender confusion and sin of homosexuality. God loves them and came and died for them in Christ that they might have life!

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