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10/5/10 9:20 PM
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the rooster
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By the way, that's not to say that I have perfection against every sexual struggle I have.

But you can have victory, be perfect in His grace and mercy, have your mind renewed by the spirit and the washing of the word and be delivered.

Some deliveries are immediate, some over time. There are things that would have knocked me out 10 years ago that just don't get me like they used to, and things that I have to fight day by day.

There is grace, healing, mercy, forgiveness, power and a renewing for men and women trapped in the gender confusion and sin of homosexuality. God loves them and came and died for them in Christ that they might have life!
10/5/10 10:17 PM
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reverend john
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Grakman -  Those are all good points zealot, but that doesn't address the point of whether homosexual conduct is permissible or sinful, according to the Bible.

Is pedophilia hardwired into the brain as well?
 
EDITED TO ADD: The way I see it we are discussing two different topics here. One is whether or not homosexuality is normal behavior for those who are gay, with the corrollorary of whether this is inborn or learned or both. Outside of some religious teachings (and perhaps evolutionary biology in that homosexuality is a genetic dead end) the question of whether it is 'moral' or 'immoral' is up to the individual and / or the culture in which he lives.

The second topic is whether or not the Bible teaches that homosexual conduct is immoral and sinful. One can argue that if it is inborn then the Bible should not teach that it is immoral, but frankly there are a number of human traits that appear to be inborn which are immoral, that we are supposed to bring under control as a new creation.

My posts and opinion on this topic are what I believe to be the traditional Biblical teaching about sexual relationships in general, not whether the society at large finds it acceptable, whether it's immoral according to the tenets of some other belief system, whether or not it's innate, etc.


but some morality issues are evolutionary are they not? I am sure you trim the sides of your beard, eat pork and sea food, and don't make sure your wife has a covering for her head is that correct? What about language, if you say, "that sucks" in front of my mom she thinks you are swearing. At one time holding a girls hand before marriage was scandalous, and kissing would be considered sinful. Thirteen year olds were married to one another ect.

Do things change? Does culture effect concept of sin?

rev
10/5/10 10:48 PM
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Grakman
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Edited: 10/05/10 10:53 PM
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Sure rev, things do change from culture to culture. That's why I said the traditional Biblical teaching. It'd be hard to argue against the fact that homosexuality has been considered a sin for the last couple thousand years, Biblically speaking, with public acceptance being sought for it a very recent modern development. If you want to argue that moral codes of the Bible can change from culture to culture and over time, then that's ok too but you can't argue that traditionally, Biblically speaking, homosexual conduct has not been seen as sinful.

Regarding shaving the beard, shellfish, tattoos, etc and a whole host of other OT laws;  none of those are mentioned in the NT in the Gospels nor in any of the epistles, except for the fact that the dietary laws were specifically done away with (what goes in the mouth does not make you unclean, it is what comes out of the mouth.)  However, moral sins are specifically enumerated in more than one passage in the Epistles. I know you're familiar with them so I won't cut and past a bunch of proof text here.

I don't know that saying 'sucks' in front of one's mother or holding a hand constitutes sin; those things aren't specifically spelled out in the Epistles in the way other moral sins are. Honestly I don't see how one can get around the Biblical injunction against homosexual conduct without saying that the Bible is a mutable book, valid for some inspiration,  but it's moral laws are not prescribed for every time and place, and that the last 2000 years of moral teaching on the subject was incorrect. It's just my opinion, but the temple prostitution argument is weak.

The honest answer in my opinion is for modern, progressive Christians to just say that they accept the Bible as a record of the events and letters of people who followed Jesus in his era and wrote what they thought was the best way of being a disciple to them; but it no longer applies across the board today because times have changed. Sort of like making the Constitution a living document. It's a good basis for running a country but over time things change and it may need adjustment.

I'd like to ask if you think adultery is ok? Say, a married couple who decides to be polyamorous swingers, would that be considered sin or is that acceptable since times have changed?


  
10/6/10 9:27 AM
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reverend john
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You didn't address the strongest of my statements, a woman covering her head. This is specifically spoken of in the New Testament not the old. Or Jesus says that anyone who divorces and remarries is committing adultery, do you hold to that?

My point is not to justify sin but to explore just what sin is. And the idea that it may change over time. Now it may not. Many Christians don't drink because they believe it is a sin, I drink I just don't get drunk. But there are times when I wont drink, when I was a youth pastor, or now when alcoholics are around. In my opinion, one is sin, the other is not.

Do I believe adultery is sin? Yes Always? yes

The question in my mind is, is it possible that in a culture that no longer understands homosexuality in the same way, that understands sexuality on a much more scientific level, can seek to support healthy relationships rather than condemn all of them. As of right now I am still not convinced, but I believe that questioning is good. That understanding the bible as the source of God's revelation of Jesus, and GOd's Spirit as the leader of our lives, may help us to actually apply the word more in line with God.

rev
10/6/10 10:29 AM
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Grakman
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A woman without a head covering is not listed in any of the moral lists of sins Paul says will keep a person from entering the Kingdom. Unfortunately, he does list men lying with men and giving over of themselves to unnatural lusts. 'Such as these are not of the Kingdom of God, but fortunately you are no longer counted among them (paraphrasing.)'

If a person commits adultery and repents and seeks forgiveness, they can inherit the Kingdom. But if they accept adultery, think it's cool or hip and continue in it, then they cannot inherit the Kingdom of God (according to Paul). If a person lives a homosexual lifestyle but repents, they can inherit the Kingdom; if they do not repent and continue in the lifestyle, they cannot inherit the Kingdom (according to Paul.) "Go and sin no more."

Drunkards are on the same list; one could debate specifically what a 'drunkard' is, but it doesn't say those who have a taste of wine from time to time shall never inherit the Kingdom.

In my opinion, most of this is very clearly laid out in the Epistles, the moral sins that we struggle with that keep us from the Kingdom (debating the definition and identification of the kingdom is probably another thread entirely. ) There are hard sayings in the Bible and people really want to get around them, things like losing your salvation (Heb 6:6), working out your own salvation with fear and trembling, the parable of the sheep and the goats (those who say Lord, Lord that may be lost), and so on. But they are there and it takes a lot of 'reasoning' to get around them.

However, the moral sins that man must overcome seem to me to have remained the same from OT to NT and across time from tradition to tradition: adultery, fornication, homosexuality, lying, stealing, covetousness, drunkenness, giving over to lust, etc.

Honestly, it just seems to me that these issues - divorce, sex before marriage, homosexuality - are issues that people want to change because it suits their needs and desires, rather than really trying to do what the Bible teaches (if that's what their aim is in the first place.) Have your cake and eat it too, basically.

10/6/10 10:44 AM
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Grakman
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reverend john - You didn't address the strongest of my statements, a woman covering her head. 
Speaking of hard statements, you didn't address the hardest of mine: is pedophilia hardwired into the brain?
10/6/10 12:16 PM
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inlikeflynn
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the rooster - 
The way I see it, all sins start in the heart and mind and manifest in our "flesh". I don't know what the cause is accept that we are carnal and sinful by nature. I don't buy that it's a more difficult or less difficult "thorn". We all bear our crosses and whatever is our "issue" is hard for us.

(by the way inlikeflynn, I was single for years before I got married and um...having a wife doesn't satisfy your desire for women (plural)and your wife isn't your sex slave, ready to satisfy your needs on the drop of a dime. They get tired, pregnant, sick whatever).


Where did I say or even imply that a wife was a sex slave? I said a HEALTHY outlet the way God intended. It seems as though you are charging ahead with a rebuttal before actually reading and considering what's being said.

So you don't see a difference in difficulty from limiting your sexual activity to one person, even considering you may not get it whenever you want, or abstaining for a limited time period until marriage, and the reality that you will NEVER be able to enjoy that incredibly intimate and wonderful experience that your biology is constantly driving you towards? If you can't concede that I have to think that you are either extremely stubborn or dishonest.
10/6/10 1:02 PM
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reverend john
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Grakman - 
reverend john - You didn't address the strongest of my statements, a woman covering her head. 
Speaking of hard statements, you didn't address the hardest of mine: is pedophilia hardwired into the brain?

Didn't think that was addressed to me I haven't spoken of hard wired or from birth at all. I am not sure about your question. I think some people are born broken (psychosis of many kinds) I think others are broken by victimization. So I guess I would say I don't know doesn't mean it's not always wrong

As to the issue of sins and the kingdom Paul says causing divisions gossip and other issues that we see frequently in the church do this as well. I guess my points are these:

Stop being hypocritical and either give grace to all or condemn all equally

Be willing to be lead by the spirit so that like Jesus we can practice mercy while still saying sin No more
10/6/10 2:11 PM
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Grakman
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reverend john - Stop being hypocritical and either give grace to all or condemn all equally
To be frank rev, that's how I felt about your condemnation of those who aren't counter culture or members of what you consider an oppressed class. I like your suggestion to give grace to all equally or condemn all equally; are you prepared to offer grace to those you consider the oppressor and part of the world domination system? 

Regardless, I don't think driving an SUV or making a decent living is of equal condemnation to committing adultery or leading a promiscuous gay lifestyle, but maybe that's just my Americanism-culture bleeding through. After all, there are sins of the body and sins not of the body; 'know ye not that your body is the temple of the holy spirit?'

As far hard wired, you wrote that we may be able to understand homosexuality on a much more scientific level. I took that to mean the idea that some are attempting to prove that homosexuality is innate and hardwired in the human brain at birth. If you meant some other scientific understanding which would enable us to see such conduct as non-sinful, please explain. At any rate, if it is 'innate,' and this innateness is then used to deem it acceptable, what is to be said about other desires that are said to be innate, such as pedophilia?
 
10/6/10 2:58 PM
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Grakman
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Edited: 10/06/10 3:07 PM
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I've noticed in this thread a phenomenon that commonly occurs when the subject of homosexuality and the Bible is discussed; a tendency to obfuscate the issue with peripheral questions and adding debates on topics other than the one at hand.

If the question is, 'Does the Bible teach that homosexual conduct is sinful?' the negative responses tend to run thusly:

1) The verses referencing homosexual conduct have been wrongly interpreted for the past 2000 years; they merely refer to the custom of temple prostituion.

2) Fornication and adultery are overlooked these days, they're very common among Christians; ergo homosexual conduct should be treated the same way (in this response are included red herrings such as women teaching in the church, women without head coverings, drinking alcohol, etc)

3) Homosexuality is innate; people are 'born' that way, so therefore it is unfair to say that their natural desires are sinful. God wouldn't have made them that way, therefore homosexual conduct should be accepted for a born homosexual; for such a one it is not a sin.

Note that none of these responses actually answer the question, 'Does the Bible teach that homosexual conduct is sinful?' 

The affirmative answer is always, 'Yes, it does.'

Whether the Bible is inspired and binding on all believers across time, whether it's a poetic-mythical book with some inspirational sections, whether it's a historical fiction that provides some insight into the minds of earlier believers - how one wants to perceive the Bible is a different question than whether the Bible teaches that certain things are immoral and sinful. One can argue that the Bible is outdated, it's a 'living document' that can be abridged by the times and cultures of the people who read and revere it, and adjust one's morality accordingly; but I don't see how it can be argued that homosexual conduct is anything less than sinful according to the Bible, from Old Testament to New.

 

 
10/6/10 3:04 PM
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Grakman
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Edited: 10/06/10 3:06 PM
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 And one more thing, just in case I am thought to hold opinions which I do not hold: 

Having the opinion that homosexual conduct is reported in the Bible as sin does not mean that one wishes to stone homosexuals to death; it does not equate with saying that homosexual conduct should be illegal. It does not mean that homosexuals cannot be saved, that they are automatically condemned to some fiery Hell,  or that they are outside the grace of God.

Believing that homosexual acts are sinful is not the same as saying that one who practices such should not be shown MERCY.  
10/6/10 3:08 PM
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reverend john
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Or the biological imperative against monogamy yeah I understand

We understand homosexuality better today we understand that most of the time it is do to trauma. So by taking away the possibility of realized sexuality do we revictimize the victim? Do you understand how hard it is for me to see how the living father that Jesus shows us could tell my friend Angie that was raped repeatedly by her uncle and abandoned by her father that she can never experience the bond of marriage and sexual oneness that I do because the idea of a penis scares and traumatized her?

As to the other question I see sins that destroy the community which sexual sins do as being important for the community to deal with. But I also see social and I situational evil as a greater sin. And believe we need to be committed to personal morality for ourselves not others community morality for our churches which includes promiscuity and adultery as well as gossip and united as the complete body of Christ against the domination system that is satans playground

Rev
10/6/10 3:19 PM
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Grakman
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reverend john - Or the biological imperative against monogamy yeah I understand

We understand homosexuality better today we understand that most of the time it is do to trauma. So by taking away the possibility of realized sexuality do we revictimize the victim? Do you understand how hard it is for me to see how the living father that Jesus shows us could tell my friend Angie that was raped repeatedly by her uncle and abandoned by her father that she can never experience the bond of marriage and sexual oneness that I do because the idea of a penis scares and traumatized her?

As to the other question I see sins that destroy the community which sexual sins do as being important for the community to deal with. But I also see social and I situational evil as a greater sin. And believe we need to be committed to personal morality for ourselves not others community morality for our churches which includes promiscuity and adultery as well as gossip and united as the complete body of Christ against the domination system that is satans playground

Rev
 
Do you think Jesus would tell Angie to be in a committed lesbian relationship? I know that you often look to Jesus as our example; I'm asking seriously not sarcastically. What do you think Jesus would do in that situation?

When you say that homosexuality is due to trauma, you are undercutting one of the major planks of the modern homosexual movement -  that homosexual desire is inborn; it is innate. Do you really think the majority of people who today engage in homosexual acts do so because they were traumatized? Homosexuals dominate Broadway (I can cite references if you like;) a good number of sit coms celebrate homosexual characters, they're often the wisest and funniest people around. Why would homosexuals and society in general celebrate it so much if it primarily due to trauma?

If it is due to trauma, isn't a more appropriate response to homosexuality then to find ways to help them deal with the trauma, through spiritual help or counseling or something else? This would actually support the position that one can be healed by faith in Christ and become heterosexual.
10/6/10 3:51 PM
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the rooster
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inlikeflynn: Where did I say or even imply that a wife was a sex slave? I said a HEALTHY outlet the way God intended. It seems as though you are charging ahead with a rebuttal before actually reading and considering what's being said.

me: I'm sorry. I didn't mean to imply thaty you thought a wife was a sex slave. But my point was that my physical needs as a married man seem to be much more then my wifes. There is still a need for discipline, for denying the natural desires.

Certainly I was a single Christian and that was very, very difficult and I'm not sure that being married is as "green" a yard as you might think.

At the root of all sexual sins is lust, desire, pleasure, selfishness etc and I'm not sure that they are all that different between the hedonist, the promiscuous, the adulterer, the homosexual.

you: So you don't see a difference in difficulty from limiting your sexual activity to one person, even considering you may not get it whenever you want, or abstaining for a limited time period until marriage, and the reality that you will NEVER be able to enjoy that incredibly intimate and wonderful experience that your biology is constantly driving you towards? If you can't concede that I have to think that you are either extremely stubborn or dishonest.

me: no. Because I don't believe that a Christian is confined to only and always being turned on by same sex. (and I'm not sure how wonderful and intimate a lot of homosexual, or pre marital, or adulterous, etc. ad nauseum sex really is).

But you are describing the unsaved homosexual. I'm not. I'm talking about the born again, forgiven, Spirit filled new believer who is committed to following Jesus. As a follower, they are committed by faith to reading and applying His Word as it defines the genders, the role of sex, intimacy, love, etc.

You are completely discounting the power of prayer to change one's heart and attitudes and desires.

One prayer for me for instance is that the things I craved as an unsaved person sexually (tons of different hot girls, etc.) would no longer plague me. That things I looked at (porn, etc) would be erased from my mind. That my thoughts and desires would be towards my wife only and that anything else would disgust me, etc.

You are telling me there is a sin for which there is no healing, no overcoming.

If Jesus could conquer sin, if He could conquer the grave, if He could overcome death, then He can empower His children to conquer any sin. ANY.
10/6/10 4:22 PM
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Ridgeback
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 I am glad my tradition allows people with same sex attraction full communion (and ordination as clergy), doesn't ask them to stop being gay, but is also crystal clear on the call to be celibate.  It isn't an easy path, but we should all be willing to give up sexual acts if it means communion with God and the salvation of our souls.  The modern view of this issue can't conceive of making the orgasm play second fiddle to any concern and many of the Christian traditions are simply giving mixed signals to sinners in need of healing.  
10/6/10 4:35 PM
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inlikeflynn
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>the rooster -  I'm sorry. I didn't mean to imply thaty >you thought a wife was a sex slave. But my point was that >my physical needs as a married man seem to be much more >then my wifes. There is still a need for discipline, for >denying the natural desires.

>Certainly I was a single Christian and that was very, very >difficult and I'm not sure that being married is >as "green" a yard as you might think.

No problem. I've been married 17 years, so believe me, I understand that. LOL.

>me: no. Because I don't believe that a Christian is >confined to only and always being turned on by same sex. >(and I'm not sure how wonderful and intimate a lot of >homosexual, or pre marital, or adulterous, etc. ad nauseum >sex really is).

I'm not sure either but I'm pretty certain it's not very enjoyable with someone you aren't attracted to sexually.

>But you are describing the unsaved homosexual. I'm not. >I'm talking about the born again, forgiven, Spirit filled >new believer who is committed to following Jesus. As a >follower, they are committed by faith to reading and >applying His Word as it defines the genders, the role of >sex, intimacy, love, etc.

>You are completely discounting the power of prayer to >change one's heart and attitudes and desires.

>One prayer for me for instance is that the things I craved >as an unsaved person sexually (tons of different hot >girls, etc.) would no longer plague me. That things I >looked at (porn, etc) would be erased from my mind. That >my thoughts and desires would be towards my wife only and >that anything else would disgust me, etc.

>You are telling me there is a sin for which there is no >healing, no overcoming.

>If Jesus could conquer sin, if He could conquer the grave, >if He could overcome death, then He can empower His >children to conquer any sin. ANY.

I guess I need to clarify my position. I am not trying to argue that homosexual conduct is not sin. I think Scripture is pretty clear on this and 2000 years of church tradition supports this as well. Hell, it's one of the few things that all the main denominations of Christianity agree on. I'm not saying the Church should cave in and accept it as OK.

I am also not arguing that it's impossible for homosexuals to overcome there feelings or at least control the behavior through God's grace. But you seem to ignore the testimony of many Christians, that they just aren't attracted to the opposite sex, no matter how bad they want it, pray for it, etc. As pointed out earlier, Exodus and other similar ministries don't have great success rates. Why is that?

My point was that we (Christians) should recognize the extreme weight of the cross they bear and the cost that many of them will have to pay to follow Christ, a cost that most of us will not have to pay, and perhaps show an extra amount of grace.
10/6/10 4:48 PM
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zealot66
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 Interesting Ridge. I must say that this thread is really more about the nature of sin and the nature of being human that I first intended and some damn fine discussion really considering the subject and the past. The rev and I agree again in that homosexuality is often and OFTEN associated with sexual trauma. Something in their formative years rewired their sexuality. I find this story alot. It makes more sense with Women than men. Spelling it out simply that the Penis is a tool of terror makes sense. Where a person goes from there, I dont know. I had a friend for years that hid the fact he was forced to suck a mans penis when he was 8. It sure explained alot of erratic sexual behaviour. His sex drive and appetite is just off the charts. He's hetero as far as I know but often wonder if he engaged in any male sex to drive out the demons of being hurt.

He does not bond with males like a homosexual but he also expressed to me that he began screwing girls like 90 while in christian ministry because every time he did, he removed himself farther away from the thought of being molested. I dont believe he is gay or hardwired to be gay.

Quite frankly this is a difficult topic. I know of kids that were effeminate as children and were found to be gay. no known sexual abuse. My son came out of the womb playing boy stuff and being a jerk like a dude. I really dont have a good answer only questions. I say the christian thing to do is accept people as they are and try to deal with the issues that cause all forms of problems from drugs, drinking sex etc. How succesful you are might be determined by how badly something was broke.

Gender Identity really blows my mind. I work with a full blow sex change patient. She or it is hideously ugly and about 6'6. I am polite and say hi but I certainly dont understand it but someone was willing to cut off their genitals to achieve their own sanity ? The movie Boys dont cry was a powerful movie to me. I recommend watching it.
10/6/10 6:15 PM
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Ridgeback
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zealot66 -  Interesting Ridge. I must say that this thread is really more about the nature of sin and the nature of being human that I first intended and some damn fine discussion really considering the subject and the past. The rev and I agree again in that homosexuality is often and OFTEN associated with sexual trauma. Something in their formative years rewired their sexuality. I find this story alot. It makes more sense with Women than men. Spelling it out simply that the Penis is a tool of terror makes sense. Where a person goes from there, I dont know. I had a friend for years that hid the fact he was forced to suck a mans penis when he was 8. It sure explained alot of erratic sexual behaviour. His sex drive and appetite is just off the charts. He's hetero as far as I know but often wonder if he engaged in any male sex to drive out the demons of being hurt.

He does not bond with males like a homosexual but he also expressed to me that he began screwing girls like 90 while in christian ministry because every time he did, he removed himself farther away from the thought of being molested. I dont believe he is gay or hardwired to be gay.

Quite frankly this is a difficult topic. I know of kids that were effeminate as children and were found to be gay. no known sexual abuse. My son came out of the womb playing boy stuff and being a jerk like a dude. I really dont have a good answer only questions. I say the christian thing to do is accept people as they are and try to deal with the issues that cause all forms of problems from drugs, drinking sex etc. How succesful you are might be determined by how badly something was broke.

Gender Identity really blows my mind. I work with a full blow sex change patient. She or it is hideously ugly and about 6'6. I am polite and say hi but I certainly dont understand it but someone was willing to cut off their genitals to achieve their own sanity ? The movie Boys dont cry was a powerful movie to me. I recommend watching it.

 Yes human sexuality is far more complex than a simple gay/straight binary would allow for.  The medicine for healing can remain the same though.  I think you have to have a tradition that sees celibacy as a legitimate path to walk before you can provide an alternative to people whose sexuality is not going to work in a marriage.  

In Orthodoxy sin is seen as the symptoms of a deathward moving creature.  Not all sins are considered voluntary and a legal view of sin is simply not there.  I think when celibacy is framed as a path to healing and communion with God it can work.  When it is framed as a special set of punishment for people who aren't "normal" it will of course be disastrous.  It is the difference between someone running five miles because it will help him win a fight he is training for and someone running five miles because he is being forced to do it against his will.  
10/6/10 6:31 PM
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Grakman
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Ridgeback - In Orthodoxy sin is seen as the symptoms of a deathward moving creature.  Not all sins are considered voluntary and a legal view of sin is simply not there.  I think when celibacy is framed as a path to healing and communion with God it can work.  When it is framed as a special set of punishment for people who aren't "normal" it will of course be disastrous.  It is the difference between someone running five miles because it will help him win a fight he is training for and someone running five miles because he is being forced to do it against his will.  

 
10/6/10 9:15 PM
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reverend john
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Yeah that is a good post ridge I still think it would seem a punishment however. As to what Jesus would say I believe he would say to me to have grace and to them to walk towards healing which would be celibacy. But like with the woman caught in adultery Jesus gave grace and loving instruction

Rev
10/6/10 10:26 PM
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Juijitsuboxer
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reverend john - I didn't say zero percent it is very rare for homosexual men to "stop being gay" the people that rooster is talking about usually wind up going back to the life style or struggle there whole lives and I know some of the founders of these ministries. The truth is god does sometimes take things away but most of the time we must seek god daily for our help. I still struggle with lust and temptations towards pornography but that doesn't mean I am not filled with gods spirit it just means I must trust god afresh each day. Even the great man of faith Paul had a thorn in his flesh

I do believe celibacy is an option tho not a popular one Jesus and Paul both say it's a preferred way of life

Rev


We are all going to struggle our whole lives with sin it will usually just be different sin than a homosexual struggles with.

I see Rev's point though. There are people who gossip in the church, look at pornography, like, steal, etc. and keep it secret. If someone found out someone steals stuff, they would not feel this huge disconnect with that person, especially if they found out that person is trying to to steal stuff and does not want that to be a part of their lifestyle.

If a person is homosexual in a congregation and he falls, maybe even continually, and it is found out, people tend to alienate that person and has no understanding for the situation.

A local church has an accountability program my friend goes to each week where they admit outloud to the group if they have committed sexual sin such as pronography, masturbation, or EVEN infedelity/adultery. Yes, people admit to cheating on their wives in this group, even while they are still church members. they ask for forgiviness and strength and for confidentiality.

Of course, if a gay person went to a group like this in most churches I think that person would not find many allies in his struggles and would be alienated for what they have done or the desires they feel. Looking at some of the horibly perverted pornography most "normal and straight" guys look at and know that other "nornal and straight" guys like themselves at church look at, it is just disturbing to me how we alienate gay people.
10/7/10 10:18 AM
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reverend john
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Btw Grakman I do think it is answering the question fir instance does the bible say a woman shouldn't have her head covered?

Well yea it does say that but is that what it really says?

What is actually saying is that a woman shouldn't dress like a whore in church as a headscarf was a sign that a woman had a husband or father or other relative if an orphan protecting her innocence

Context is everything

Rev
10/7/10 10:21 AM
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Grakman
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Sounds right rev. What is the context of men lying with men receiving in themselves the recompense for their sin? Phone Post
10/7/10 11:34 AM
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the rooster
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inlikeflynn: I am also not arguing that it's impossible for homosexuals to overcome there feelings or at least control the behavior through God's grace. But you seem to ignore the testimony of many Christians, that they just aren't attracted to the opposite sex, no matter how bad they want it, pray for it, etc. As pointed out earlier, Exodus and other similar ministries don't have great success rates. Why is that?

me: well, you make a good point. You make a point about "homosexuals overcoming there feelings or at least controlling their behavior through God's grace."

God's grace is His mercy and forgiveness. And what it does is that it helps us from being trapped in chains of guilt. That is very helpful. God says He will put our sins in "the Sea of Forgefulness". Wow! He also says that by His grace He can separate us from our sins as far as the East is from the West!

So grace provides us with the relief from the onerous affects of sin. Even repeated ones or ones that we constantly struggle with.

But repentance and the burial of our sins, is merely the crucifying and burial of our inner man and his desire. For the homosexual to overcome by *his own will and power* is to live a life that is extremely frustrating. Yes, everytime we sin and sincerely repent, God does forgive us but we need to finish applying the work of Calvary which is Grace AND POWER.

Our inner man can be victorious (not perfect) through the infilling of God's Holy Spirit. Can you imagine that the power, the Spirit of the Living God, the all powerful, all high entity that created all things would place part of His essence in us?!

The bible shows in Acts 2 a dramatic change in the apostles. Prior to the fufillment of the prophecty of Joel, they are weak, confused, in hiding, distressed, scared.

When the NT covenant is ratified by the "down payment" of the Holy Spirit, overflowing, bubbling, supernaturally infilling the apostles, suddenly they are filled with new boldness, a new power, supernatural strength and power.

Remember in the OT when God's Holy Spirit would come upon the prophets, or David, or Samson...mightly works were wrought that brought great deliverance.

If we would seek in prayer and praise an infilling and a unity and an intimacy with God, He *will* change us and conform us to *His* image. He will give us *His* mind and He will make us overcomers.

There is hope for all of us. Even wretches like me!

My point was that we (Christians) should recognize the extreme weight of the cross they bear and the cost that many of them will have to pay to follow Christ, a cost that most of us will not have to pay, and perhaps show an extra amount of grace.
10/7/10 11:47 AM
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the rooster
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Rev, I think that actually the covering of a woman in that context (I think) was actually in reference to hair. Women are to have long hair and men to have short hair and it refers specifically to gender identity which is pertinent to this discussion. From the beginning, God clearly defined the roles, authority and distinctions between men and women even down to what they wore (men wore male clothes and women wore female clothes).

We have a big move in our culture towards androgeny, gender confusion, role reversal and to some degree I see homosexuality as part of this overall muddying of the genders (and yes victimization plays a role, so does curiousity, hedonism, "craziness...like the "Girls gone wild" where chicks hook up to drive guys nuts, etc).

Anyway, our denomination stresses modesty and gender identification (males wear pants, women wear skirts and dresses, men have short hair, women have long and often uncut hair).

Now, I know this may seem legalistic and in our church, our Pastor doesn't preach from the pulpit hair length, sleeve length, what to wear. It's more of a discipline for the converted to grow in and towards and the principles of gender specificity are taught and preached. These are taught to protect us and our families and to me it makes a lot of sense.

Here's the verses you all are discussing:

http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=1Cr&c=11&t=KJV#6

1Cr 11:14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?

1Cr 11:15 But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for [her] hair is GIVEN HER FOR A COVERING.

1Cr 11:16 But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God.

By the way, this is something my wife struggles with (dresses and uncut hair) but understands the principles and wears dresses most of the time (especially at church out of respect) and has long hair.




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