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10/2/10 2:39 PM
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Grakman
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We've discussed Mark Driscoll and Joel Osteen, what's your take on Hugh Hollowell and Big Tent Christianity?

http://blog.hughlh.com/
10/2/10 3:50 PM
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Ridgeback
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 I know nothing about this guy, but I was chuckling at the Tony Campolo story:

In the mid seventies, Tony Campolo was giving a speech at Wheaton College.

In his talk, Tony said, ”I have three things to say today.

  1. Yesterday, 30,000 children starved to death.
  2. You don’t give a shit.
  3. Right now, more of you are concerned that I said shit than you are that 30,000 children died.”

It took Tony more than 20 years to get invited back to Wheaton.2

10/2/10 5:21 PM
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Grakman
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Edited: 10/02/10 5:23 PM
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Misleading statistics are misleading. Bart Ehrman uses the same inflated numbers in his book God's Problem about starving children. The problem I have with this stuff is that first off Christians actually do more to alleviate suffering in the world than anybody; second people die no matter what we do it's part of life on this planet. It's trying to make people feel guilty for not quitting their jobs and moving to Africa to dig wells. Why isn't Campolo doing that stuff instead of going on lecture tours and writing books? Just another means of looking down the nose at others. It's just as 'holier than thou' as all the preachers who look down on others cause they don't believe such and such. Phone Post  
10/2/10 9:03 PM
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Ridgeback
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Grakman - Misleading statistics are misleading. Bart Ehrman uses the same inflated numbers in his book God's Problem about starving children. The problem I have with this stuff is that first off Christians actually do more to alleviate suffering in the world than anybody; second people die no matter what we do it's part of life on this planet. It's trying to make people feel guilty for not quitting their jobs and moving to Africa to dig wells. Why isn't Campolo doing that stuff instead of going on lecture tours and writing books? Just another means of looking down the nose at others. It's just as 'holier than thou' as all the preachers who look down on others cause they don't believe such and such. Phone Post  

 I agree that social justice can become a way to become another pharisee.  It also represents a one sidedness that I find is typical of all Protestant confessions.  Its not that charitable acts and almsgiving aren't both crucial to the Christian life, but many of these people act as if it is all there is to Christianity and then atheists rightly ask why they need religion to do those things.  
10/3/10 1:23 AM
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Lahi
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Edited: 10/03/10 1:31 AM
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Grakman - Misleading statistics are misleading. Bart Ehrman uses the same inflated numbers in his book God's Problem about starving children. The problem I have with this stuff is that first off Christians actually do more to alleviate suffering in the world than anybody; second people die no matter what we do it's part of life on this planet. It's trying to make people feel guilty for not quitting their jobs and moving to Africa to dig wells. Why isn't Campolo doing that stuff instead of going on lecture tours and writing books? Just another means of looking down the nose at others. It's just as 'holier than thou' as all the preachers who look down on others cause they don't believe such and such. Phone Post  




Those stats don't seem that far off from a quick google search, but maybe they are.

Grakman, maybe you know more about Campolo than I realize, but I would say he is living his life that way. And its not just overseas, check out what he's done to minister to the inner cities here in America.

I don't take him as "Holier that Thou," but see him standing firmly in the scriptural prophetic tradition. In addition to his hands on work, I think the books and lectures serve a purpose too. I know they've spoken to me, and encouraged me to try to both question, and live out, the difficult challenges Jesus makes to us.

I know the net sucks for discussion sometimes, so I want to say I don't mean to come across as hostile with you, I'm afraid I've seemed that way here lately. But Tony has challenged and inspired me a lot, I believe God is using him in powerful and real ways.
10/3/10 1:25 AM
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Lahi
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Edited: 10/03/10 1:32 AM
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Anyway I'll be off the board for a while, so see everyone later. I do want to get back to some of the questions on the Gay Sex thread, its got me thinking.

And thanks for the links Ridge, those Podcasts were really good. Will have to listen to him more.
10/3/10 1:55 AM
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Ridgeback
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Lahi - Anyway I'll be off the board for a while, so see everyone later. I do want to get back to some of the questions on the Gay Sex thread, its got me thinking.

And thanks for the links Ridge, those Podcasts were really good. Will have to listen to him more.
You might try the one called "In the Company of Sinners."  He discusses why he was fired from his job as a Protestant pastor and became a construction worker instead, trying to run his company on gospel principles.  
 
10/3/10 1:57 AM
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Lahi
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 A couple Campolo quotes, and then I'm really gone:)

"I think that Christianity has two emphases. One is a social emphasis to impart the values of the kingdom of God in society - to relieve the sufferings of the poor, to stand up for the oppressed, to be a voice for those who have no voice. The other emphasis is to bring people into a personal, transforming relationship with Christ, where they feel the joy and the love of God in their lives. That they manifest what the fifth chapter of Galatians calls 'the fruit of the Spirit'. Fundamentalism has emphasized the latter, mainline churches have emphasized the former. We cannot neglect one for the other."

"There are 2,000 verses of Scripture that tell us we must be committed to protecting the poor and the oppressed... There is no concern of Scripture that is addressed so often and so powerfully as reaching out to the poor."

"I've always been skeptical of those television healers who are bald. I mean, if I had that gift, that would be the first thing I'd fix."

10/3/10 1:57 AM
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Ridgeback
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Lahi - 
Grakman - Misleading statistics are misleading. Bart Ehrman uses the same inflated numbers in his book God's Problem about starving children. The problem I have with this stuff is that first off Christians actually do more to alleviate suffering in the world than anybody; second people die no matter what we do it's part of life on this planet. It's trying to make people feel guilty for not quitting their jobs and moving to Africa to dig wells. Why isn't Campolo doing that stuff instead of going on lecture tours and writing books? Just another means of looking down the nose at others. It's just as 'holier than thou' as all the preachers who look down on others cause they don't believe such and such. Phone Post  




Those stats don't seem that far off from a quick google search, but maybe they are.

Grakman, maybe you know more about Campolo than I realize, but I would say he is living his life that way. And its not just overseas, check out what he's done to minister to the inner cities here in America.

I don't take him as "Holier that Thou," but see him standing firmly in the scriptural prophetic tradition. In addition to his hands on work, I think the books and lectures serve a purpose too. I know they've spoken to me, and encouraged me to try to both question, and live out, the difficult challenges Jesus makes to us.

I know the net sucks for discussion sometimes, so I want to say I don't mean to come across as hostile with you, I'm afraid I've seemed that way here lately. But Tony has challenged and inspired me a lot, I believe God is using him in powerful and real ways.

 My impression has been that T. Campolo has put his money where his mouth is in terms of his life actions.  I agree with Grakman that social radicalism can be a source of pride, but I don't see it in the life of Campolo based on some of his talks and some biographical details I have read.  
10/3/10 1:58 AM
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Lahi
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Edited: 10/03/10 1:58 AM
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Thanks Ridge, will listen to it..
10/3/10 2:21 AM
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Grakman
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When I read Ehrman's book, I immediately went to the WHO website to look at the numbers because the numbers Ehrman claimed were astronomical. Turns out that his numbers were no where near accurate compared to the WHO numbers, but there were plenty of websites who had numbers similar to Ehrman's. When I read that 30.000,000 children are dying every day because of malaria or whatever  for example, you have to ask yourself where are all these deaths taking place? Birth rates wouldn't be high enough to replace the adult dead if children in a given area were dying at such a high rate; yet the world's population continues to explode at break neck pace in exactly those nations where all these children are dying.

I don't know much about Tony Campolo, and my comments about him may be unwarranted. I'm speaking in general terms towards those who are on constant hate trips against the United States and Americans in general. I realize I'm coming across a bit harsh, but I do get tired of the constant guilt trips that everyone tries to lay on the shoulders of middle class Americans.
10/16/10 2:02 AM
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reverend john
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it was 30,000 not 30,000,000
10/16/10 8:06 AM
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Grakman
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Typo. 30,000 per day is not accurate, according to the WHO. Phone Post
10/16/10 12:33 PM
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reverend john
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I believe it was during Tony's talk, this was the time of the Ethiopian famine.

rev
10/17/10 4:03 PM
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Grakman
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Edited: 10/17/10 4:04 PM
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 I don't know if you've ever read any of his books rev, but in my opinion he overstates the matter significantly no matter what point he is trying to make, whether it's the daily death toll of starvation or the number of manuscript errors in ancient copies of the Bible.

Fifty-five million people die every year; yet he claims almost 11 million of those are children dying of starvation. That's by starvation alone, not including malaria, HIV / AIDS, or other illnesses. Yet 2/3 of all deaths are age-related. The numbers don't add up. The thing is, he doesn't need that many children dying of starvation to make his point that starvation, disease, etc prove to him that there is no God.  He's overstating things for what I can only guess is the emotional impact it will have on his reader, as though 11 million children dying of starvation proves the case better than 4 million.

One thing I've never understood about the folks who want to convince other people that there is no God is what difference it should then make to the person so convinced whether some kids on the other side of the world are dying or not. We're all just hairless apes living wasted lives on a pale blue dot in the middle of infinity anyway, so..?  What exactly is Bart Ehrman doing about these starving children nowdays, anyway?
 
10/17/10 5:36 PM
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reverend john
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I have read many of his books, and he emotionalizes a story that is for sure, but the guy walks the walk. As for his statement, I don't remember what the original statement was, but when it was made it was made during a time of intense famine. The claim in my remembrance was "will die of starvation or disease" and the point wasn't the number of people, but that people were more concerned with personal "holiness" than they were with social holiness

rev
10/17/10 5:41 PM
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Grakman
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reverend john - I have read many of his books, and he emotionalizes a story that is for sure, but the guy walks the walk. As for his statement, I don't remember what the original statement was, but when it was made it was made during a time of intense famine. The claim in my remembrance was "will die of starvation or disease" and the point wasn't the number of people, but that people were more concerned with personal "holiness" than they were with social holiness

rev
What walk is he walking? Not sure what you mean by that.
10/17/10 6:30 PM
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reverend john
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The guy is involved in the issues, he has started ministries in Philly and Oakland, as well as Haiti and has traveled tirelessly for ministries that provide business loans to people in third world countries as well as build houses for people

rev
10/17/10 6:45 PM
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Lahi
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I've always thought his emotion was just honesty, don't know how you can't get that way somtimes with these kinds of issues. Maybe he is more passionate than most but I don't think that's bad at all.
10/17/10 7:23 PM
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Grakman
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reverend john - The guy is involved in the issues, he has started ministries in Philly and Oakland, as well as Haiti and has traveled tirelessly for ministries that provide business loans to people in third world countries as well as build houses for people

rev

 Interesting, I hadn't heard that about him. Not bad for a guy who considers himself an agnostic.
10/17/10 9:01 PM
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reverend john
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He doesn't consider himself an agnostic in regards to God, he considers himself an agnostic in the sense that our ability to know God, or anything really is going to be subject to our own context, and history, therefore all of our knowing will be tainted. So we always "see through a glass darkly" rather than perfectly, which is a very biblical position if you ask me.

rev
10/17/10 9:48 PM
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Lahi
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Grakman are you meaning Campolo, or Ehrman?
10/17/10 9:58 PM
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Grakman
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Ehrman. My comments about death rates is based on Ehrman's book, 'God's Problem.'  He cites those figures in the introduction, if I remember correctly.

I don't know much about his religion, other than that he himself announced he is an agnostic. If there is more to it than that, I don't know:

"In the church of his youth in Lawrence [Kansas], with nearly every pew at capacity last week, Bart D. Ehrman, chairman of the department of religious studies at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, announced that he was an agnostic. He joked that atheists think agnostics are wimpy atheists and that agnostics think atheists are arrogant agnostics." "Agnostic's questions have biblical answers," Vern Barnet, Kansas City Star, 23 April 2008

I don't really have a problem with Campolo. I haven't read any of his books nor do I know much about him, so I don't have an opinion one way or the other.
10/17/10 10:03 PM
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Lahi
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I could be wrong, but I think Rev is talking about Campolo?
10/17/10 10:16 PM
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Grakman
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Lahi - I could be wrong, but I think Rev is talking about Campolo?

Now that I look at it, you're probably right.

There is a lot of irony here. :)

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